[Spoilers] Safe Haven Cinematic

[seleri]

As others have said, rogues use shadow magic. It was always implied, and has always been how I explain stealth for RP purposes. I believe it was even confirmed either at the WoD Blizzcon or the Blizzcon following Legion's announcement because I remember discussing it with a friend.

[Aucald]

I mean I am not even sure about that. Most of the posters who I see in favour of the aggressive Horde do not at any point accept that the Horde is evil and make every effort to prove that the Alliance is at fault instead. A manichaeistic view where one simply prefers to play the evil side makes sense in RPGs but this is not what we get.

What I more often see is something different; Blizzard has let the Horde continue to do evil acts while also pushing faction pride so people who preferred the Horde rebel against the notion that their faction acting as it always has is something wrong that needs to be fixed.

Personally, I view the "war for its own sake" stance as evil in itself - it may not be the baby-eating, demonically-fueled evil of old as concerns the Horde's history, but the notion that the Horde must destroy the Alliance to leave peacefully is a false one in my view (proven false in the Warcraft universe's own narrative). This isn't even to say that the Alliance is good, or not at fault for many of the conflicts the Horde has been inveigled into - but both factions can exist in mutual peace if they're willing to close the book on the past and move beyond it.

[Nathasil]

Sylvanas will kill Bolvar in 8.3 and claim the Crown of Command, unleashing the entire force of the Scourge upon us. "The queen threatens the king". 9.0 will be Wrath of the Lichqueen.

And during the final fight of 9.x it will be revealed that while genociding every race and turning Azeroth into an undead shithole, sending her assassins after anybody who disagrees and personally taking a piss on each and every holy place of all races of both factions.....she only had the best intentions all the time and is not really a villain!!!!

[Zandalariprelate]

Considering most of the warriors and soldiers are buffed with enchanted armors, weapon and some even especially with a certain field of magic like Holy Light for Paladins, Arcane for the spell-blade/breakers and monks using some nature/life energy, then we can assume every class uses some kind of magic in his own.

Now with that cinematic, I want to see something like this with a lightforged rogue draenei or human vs a void/shadow rogue

[Piamonte]

So, i just want to talk a bit abut the new cinematic, specifically the part saurfang kills one of the forsaken rogues by breaking his neck. how is this possible?? arent forsaken supposed to keep going as long as the head is intact. I would love for blizzard to clarify this

[Evaddon]

They've represented stealth in two different ways since BFA started, here we have..how stealth is actually represented in game, you can hear them if they're two close or see them.

Then you have Shaw here quietly sneaking up on Greymane, you even hear the out of stealth sound when Greymane calls out to him. But he is still visible to the naked eye or so we think,no one else reacts to him but Greymane who is a wolf man...

So I think its canon as of now if its always been, I couldn't tell you honestly.

[jellmoo]

Stealth has always been magical. Shadow magic, namely.

Cloak of Shadows, Shadow Dance, Shadow Blades etc..

To be fair, none of those abilities existed at launch. Rogue abilities were decidedly mundane when the game first launched, with no implied magical abilities. The use of any sort of shadow magic was tacked on later.

[enigma77]

To be fair, none of those abilities existed at launch. Rogue abilities were decidedly mundane when the game first launched, with no implied magical abilities. The use of any sort of shadow magic was tacked on later.

That's true, I remember when you needed Vanishing Powder for Vanish. That seemed to me as if you actually threw some powder to disappear in a puff of smoke haha. The animation of the ability does still show that too, if I recall correctly.

But ever since TBC at least Rogues have been magical. There's no way to make yourself glow purple and immune to magic in any mundane way.

[Nathreim]

So, i just want to talk a bit abut the new cinematic, specifically the part saurfang kills one of the forsaken rogues by breaking his neck. how is this possible?? arent forsaken supposed to keep going as long as the head is intact. I would love for blizzard to clarify this

Blizz have been inconsistent on forsaken and what it takes to kill them for years. Some can take a massive beating while others only die to an arrow.

[Thage]

As far back as Vanilla, if memory serves, the Rogue class description has mentioned the use of minor mysticism/magics in their abilities. The dust kicked up by their footfalls, and the other tells Thrall and Saurfang use to track them, alludes to how you can detect them when they're close by. It's nice to have some canon for how Stealth/stealth detection works in the setting.

[enigma77]

Yeah basically there is zero consistency. If we assume undead have no functioning organs whatsoever, it makes no sense that you'd be able to destroy them by simply breaking their neck, as their brain should have liquified long ago without oxyen and blood. The only reason to destroy them should be to completely obliterate them. And that's actually how they have been portrayed before. Including in one of the short stories written by Blizzard where Garrosh sends the Forsaken troops in first, because they can't be killed by being shot or anything.

The way they are portrayed in this video suggests they have blood flowing through their veins and having their neck snapped damages the brainstem and cuts off oxygen supply to their functioning brain. Which would basically mean they are essentially alive.

[Zandalariprelate]

Blizz have been inconsistent on forsaken and what it takes to kill them for years. Some can take a massive beating while others only die to an arrow.

Just like some humans can die from silly things while others can endure a lot of pain and even bizarre damage received in the head like this guy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phineas_Gage

[Dagoth Ur]

I used to love the horde when they were the starks with a roose bolton faction(the forsakens) but honestly the horde being so different between members without anything in common has only hurt and bring opportunities to continue with the dreaded faction war plotline.

I think something like the most basic motto of : Don't fuck with me or you will regret it twice! is more than enough for both faction to build up their own form of retribution while also waving new bonds with each nation of their respective factions(Humans and Draenei sharing the death by holy fire kind of punishment and in some extreme case brainwashing like clockwork orange)

That's why I feel like it needs a strong, respected leader who can rein even the naughtiest in. Being a Warchief should be the most difficult job on Azeroth, like it was described in ToD. Let the Alliance be coalition based on sharing mutual values, religion and all that jam, while the Horde is kept together through strength and respect. It's essence is supposed to be warrior culture after all.

[Maljinwo]

Forsaken are poorly written and Blizzard has shown them dying to normal wounds (A bullet, an arrow, etc) but surviving others for comedic effect (having their legs separated from their body)

In fact, Forsaken are apparently so fragile that their bodies deteriorate faster when using weapons or simply using a blacksmith's hammer since they can't regenerate at all.

[Piamonte]

Just like some humans can die from silly things while others can endure a lot of pain and even bizarre damage received in the head like this guy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phineas_Gage

your example doesnt apply here

[Aucald]

The Horde's defining trait being honor, as Mists attempted to introduce and failed and BFA has doubled down on, does not work because honor is a meme. The WC3 Horde wasn't united by nebulous honor, but by specific commonalities among tribal shamanistic societies wanting to build a better life, with the orcs as a centerpiece and the side races having a debt of gratitude, sharing either a violent past (the trolls) or a beleagured present (the tauren) with the orcs. This only worked in WC3. Since WoW has released, this has not been the case.

Honor is only a meme if you choose it to be. Personally, I hold little truck with memes - finding them to be on a rung slightly below puns. Funny, sure, but not a part of proper discourse. I also disagree with you as concerns the Horde's state between WC3 and WoW - nothing really changed betwixt the two except for the narrative moving forward as is understandable.

The vast majority of the Forsaken and the blurb and questlines you do that are Forsaken-only or Forsaken coded are what I describe. When you roll Forsaken, you rolled it with the knowledge that you would be playing an amoral zombie that the living dislike and who dislikes the living, who's largely pragmatic and who's highest loyalty is to Sylvanas, not to the Horde. This ideological separation has been a big part of many Forsaken storylines, from the initial Wrathgate fallout before Afrasiabi got his mitts on it this time around to the Silverpine and Hillsbrad stuff in Cataclysm. When you roll a Forsaken, you do not roll because you secretly want to be told you should play like a Thrall-style orc or an Anduin-style human, as the writers of BFA are dead set on.

Only if you take the Forsaken opening dialog as some kind of strange ultimatum. I don't think most players, even of Forsaken characters, do that. For example, my Forsaken Warlock doesn't give a whit about Sylvanas or the notion that he was "saved" from the Scourge - he's basically an outright psychopath who thinks he's a demon, and that if he can attain enough power he can supplant Sylvanas and rule his people the way they were meant to be ruled, with a first of iron and Fel flame. I think the key here is that the door is open to play a character however you want to - from a well-meaning person afflicted with a tragic condition to an evil sadist who sees Sylvanas as the highest good. The door is open for all forms of portrayal.

Nope, being evil is not a character trait. Sylvanas sending assassins after Thrall isn't nonsense because it's an evil act and she's not an evil character, but because it lacks any motivation, she extracts nothing from the attempt, it's done in a highly incompetent fashion and it contradicts what we've been told of her internal monologue regarding the favour she views people like Vol'jin with and even her own place as Warchief. Sylvanas has changed enormously from pre-BFA to BFA, becoming a retard who does evil things because they're evil and not because they in any way are informed by her character or motivations, as she has neither a consistent character nor any motivation.

Being evil isn't a character trait? Since when? When did moral alignment stop informing characterization? As for motivation or purpose - it was meant to stop Thrall from being a rallying figure Saurfang could use to put together a coalition to oppose her, in full knowledge that Thrall has both remaining charisma and a long and storied past with the Horde that could make many of her loyalists question their allegiance (e.g. if Thrall opposes her, then what am I doing?) Sylvanas didn't change much at all in BfA if you ask me - she's continued to pursue the same agenda as she's done since her experiences back in Cata, the goal of securing herself against True Death by seeking ways to increase and enhance the Forsaken as her bulwark against eternity. Only her means have changed as a result of her rising star.

Re: The assassins. They're literally invisible and don't need food, sleep or water. All they need to do is to wait for Saurfang to eventually fall asleep and then give him the slip or given their target is Thrall, wait for at least one to fall asleep if they're sleeping in shifts and then attack. The notion that Saurfang can somehow track invisible people is by itself ridiculous, almost as ridiculous as sending two people after two dangerous warriors of which one has already taken out a lot more than two of your guys.

Rogues are not "literally" invisible nor can they remain so forever - the ability for them to disappear is an understandable and cinematic narrative shorthand and I think you know it (otherwise the world of Azeroth would've been shaped by perma-invisible Rogues since time immemorial). Orcs also possess highly keen senses of smell, hearing, and proprioception as part and parcel of their role as hunters in a dangerous world - which is likely how Saurfang becomes aware of his assassin's approach and how Thrall parries his in mid-air. Stealth is not now nor has ever been an "I win" button in terms of a fight.

As for why there were two and why they attacked, I think I've covered that in depth more than once.

[Kralljin]

Ah, the imbecile shaman, complacent and happy to be second in command forever. You get chosen by the elements while dozens fail but you don't consider yourself to be a ruler.

They are basically the clergy of orcish society, no need for them to become a leader as they still have a massive influence.

Pretty idealistic of you.

Doesn't matter what i am, it matters what a Shaman is.
Because i'm going to beat the same drum i did when i had this totally amazing discussion with another person:

source for your claims.

Old shamans might be wise, younger? Not so much. For every cool one there is probably another filled with the fury of fire furies.

Thrall is a young Shaman, he didn't become a leader because he wanted, but because others made him a Leader.
Orgrim named him Warchief, Drek'thar handed the leadership over after he confirmed that he's the son of Durotan and only after he's proven that he's worthy of it.

But Thrall didn't seek those position.

And as said, even Drek'thar scolded him when he asked why he just doesn't use the elements for anything, because that's not what being a Shaman is about.

Orcs don't challenge their leaders because it suits them, take Kilroggs dad for example, that guy, going by the Lords of War episode, wasn't exactly fit anymore, yet no one questioned his rule.

Because they are not on par. Chieftain is the ruler, shamans are merely advisors, spiritual guides.

And Orcs generally do not fuck around with their spiritual guide, because elemental worship is part of their culture.
Telling a Shaman to fuck off is like telling a Bishop / Pope to fuck off in medival europe, prickly matter even for rulers.

Probably because he was a maniacal cripple who could not accept his place in the pack. The guy wasn't stable.

Doesn't change the fact that he was rejected by the elements due to his ambitions, after all, majority of orcs do not become a Shaman.
Guess there's a reason why a lot of Shaman appear way more passive than regular Orc warriors, because they are different.

A Shamans source of power requires them to be humble.

Is this why so many of these humble guys turned into Legion so easily for the sake of power? It is not as if they were not using their powers against enemies in clan fights.

Gul'dan fooled them, told them it's basically a higher power without any backdraw, KJ himself manipulated popular Shaman like Ner'zhul, dissidents were killed off.
It's not like Gul'dan showed up and asks them: Want some? It was a big political scheme.

[Evaddon]

I don't know, no one can say one thing for sure because they game it self constantly shows different representations of the Forsaken and what death or wounds are to them.

I'm going to go with the idea they can be killed just the same as anyone else, because this same idea was represented in Cataclysm in the Silverpine questline, and there on after. Anything else is just for comedic effect, or a silly addition to a side quest. So I would say that's canon. Atleast for me

[omeomorfismo]

Yeah basically there is zero consistency. If we assume undead have no functioning organs whatsoever, it makes no sense that you'd be able to destroy them by simply breaking their neck, as their brain should have liquified long ago without oxyen and blood. The only reason to destroy them should be to completely obliterate them. And that's actually how they have been portrayed before. Including in one of the short stories written by Blizzard where Garrosh sends the Forsaken troops in first, because they can't be killed by being shot or anything.

The way they are portrayed in this video suggests they have blood flowing through their veins and having their neck snapped damages the brainstem and cuts off oxygen supply to their functioning brain. Which would basically mean their bodies are essentially alive.

blood? you mean the livor mortis?

[Piamonte]

I suppose one way to describe it would be magic re-igniting the nerves? Ex.: Say the magic flows from the brain down the spine and through the nerves, and this magic is what keeps the body functioning. By severing the connection between the brain and the rest of the body, magic wouldn't be able to flow, thus, rendering the body immovable.

But that begs the question: Can you paralyze an undead? Can there be an undead without the use of it's limbs, that still has them? Or does the magic that raises them prevent that? And can you raise the body of someone who was paralyzed?

Even that is a stretch to say the least.

the problem with that is i think we have examples of undeads that all that is left of them is the head and they keep talking like nothing happened