The Raiding Dilemma

[Kaver]

This has been the major problem of WoW for many, many years.

And it gets worse and worse with more things to exclude others, with ilvl, achivements, gearscore, RIO score etc over the years. We need LESS things to separate us and to show "how good we are", not more. The content needs to be more inclusive, not more exclusive.

Your attitude sucks.

The game needs to be more exclusive. We need to have the choice of who we want to play with. I don’t want to play with you and people like you. I don't want to include you in anything because you have the most lazy attitude I have ever seen (with a few exceptions).

I’m so happy that systems like rio make it possible to keep bad players far away from me. I will never group up with lazy players who cant take responsibility for their own lifes. Even if you were a good player I would still not play with you because your attitude sucks. If you were in my guild you would be kicked immediately because we cant have people who blame others for their own mistakes. I’m so happy that I will never have to deal or be in contact with players like you in game.

Thank god for sites like raider.io, warcraftlogs and wowprogress. Thank god that I can avoid players like you.

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To lead your own group should NOT be necessary to enjoy the game. Most raids are like 15man or so on avarage size, meaning only 1/15 is the leader, and you should be avle to actually play by being one of the other 14.

And you will be able to play if your attitude don't sucks. Players don't want to raid with people they don't like. And players don't like a player with a lazy attitude. Saying from the start that you don't want to do this or that is a really bad way to interact with other people.

I'm never the raid leader but I always show that I'm willing to put in effort to help the team. I have never had any problems with raiding and I have never spent a dime on WoW (other than the subscription).

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Besides, the leader is suppose to know EVERYTHING, when to use BL, mechanics for all roles, assign tanks, put out markers, split the raids when you have to etc, etc. I play Rogue, I know what a Rogue is suppose to do. I don't WANT to learn how tanks deal with mobs etc, that's not a Rogues job. And knowing your class's job should be enough!

This is so sad. Normally nobody will force you to know tank tactics as a dps. But this attitude that you have is so bad that you nobody wants to play with you. Raiding is a team effort and you have to be willing to put in effort. It's not about what you want. It's about helping the team.

Imagine someone having this attitude in a job in real life. That you're only willing to do what you HAVE to do. That you don't want to help your coworkers with anything unless YOU get something out of it. Just because it's not your job doesn't mean you can't help with it. It's called being a good friend or being a good team member!

I can't start to explain how sad and frustrated your mentality makes me.

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There are ways around this, but it all comes down to real life money SADLY. If you can't afford this, then raiding is sadly not an option (we talk Heroic or Mythic raiding).

This is even more sad. The fact that you think you have to spend real money in order to raid just shows off your mentality. There are thousands of guilds in the game that raid on all different levels. You can very easily find a guild that fits your need in relation to the difficulty you want to raid and the amount of time you're willing to spend on raiding. All that is required is for you to show that you actually want to be a part of the team and to be a normal decent humanbeing for good manners. If you can't do that then nobody want to spend time with you either in game or in real life. Saying "Nah I don't want to learn about tanks" is a really bad start. It's shows a really bad attitude and nobody wants to play or spend time with a person like that.

[Battlebeard]

Your attitude sucks.

The game needs to be more exclusive. We need to have the choice of who we want to play with. I don’t want to play with you and people like you. I don't want to include you in anything because you have the most lazy attitude I have ever seen (with a few exceptions).

I’m so happy that systems like rio make it possible to keep bad players far away from me. I will never group up with lazy players who cant take responsibility for their own lifes. Even if you were a good player I would still not play with you because your attitude sucks. If you were in my guild you would be kicked immediately because we cant have people who blame others for their own mistakes. I’m so happy that I will never have to deal or be in contact with players like you in game.

Thank god for sites like raider.io, warcraftlogs and wowprogress. Thank god that I can avoid players like you.

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And you will be able to play if your attitude don't sucks. Players don't want to raid with people they don't like. And players don't like a player with a lazy attitude. Saying from the start that you don't want to do this or that is a really bad way to interact with other people.

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This is so sad. Normally nobody will force you to know tank tactics as a dps. But this attitude that you have is so bad that you nobody wants to play with you. Raiding is a team effort and you have to be willing to put in effort. It's not about what you want. It's about helping the team.

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This is even more sad. The fact that you think you have to spend real money in order to raid just shows off your mentality. There are thousands of guilds in the game that raid on all different levels. You can very easily find a guild that fits your need in relation to the difficulty you want to raid and the amount of time you're willing to spend on raiding. All that is required is for you to show that you actually want to be a part of the team and to be a normal decent humanbeing for good manners. If you can't do that then nobody want to spend time with you either in game or in real life. Saying "Nah I don't want to learn about tanks" is a really bad start. It's shows a really bad attitude and nobody wants to play or spend time with a person like that.

I was lucky that an old friend in a good guild let me join to get the curve free. But most people aren't this lucky.

I am not a bad player, I've been in top 50 guilds in the past and have many fairly prestigious kills. But now, I am low on time and struggle to find pugs.
So, you tell me, what should I do
- If I lack experience (curve etc) of the fights
- If my gear is fairly "low", now I'm 415, but when I was 390 I could never find Heroic raids
- If I won't lead groups myself
- If I have about 1 hour per day to play, and tops 3 in a row one day for the raid
- If I would NEVER leave my guild. I am loyal to guilds, in 15 years I had 3 guilds, and the only reason I swap are disbands or realm transfers

Tell me, if guilds are not an option and if you have fairly low amount of time and is not a leader, what can I POSSIBLY do besides buying the curve?

[justandulas]

Guys, how do we progress in raids etc when no one is willing to take us? For example, there are requirements to do raids set forth, your experience, your damage, knowing fights, ilevel etc, how are we suppose to accomplish this when no one is willing to take us into raids? I want to ask you guys all, when there is a new person to raiding, how does he progress if always groups are looking for people who are experienced? How to beginners get through raids? All I see is prejudice, groups only recruiting those who know the fights have super amazing high ilevel gear etc. Same thing with mythics, groups are only looking for specific classes, achievements and ilevel. If for example I want to jump into raiding and I don't have much experience in it, I will still be turned down. So this is the flaw what i'm talking about. The people who are new to raiding will never get into raids thus they will never progress. This system is really flawed. LFR does not solve this because the items that drop there aren't nearly as good as those that drop in normal/heroic raids etc. It's nearly impossible to get into raids part of the reason I moved to PVP.

WoW is so incredibly hard to progress in mainly because of player driven attitude that literally keeps the new/beginner people from progressing.
If anyone plans to play WoW lemme warn you in advance, you will face a lot of trouble and hard time getting into end game content mostly because it's players who are pulling the strings on this and Blizzard is not doing anything about the playerbase who wants to do raids but can't because of player made rules. This is the same issue for past 10 years that has not been looked at by the Blizzard development team.

IMO, start your own group and be honest it's just a casual normal run for fun. Crawl, walk, then run.

I've always hated this attitude, even from the perspective of a high end raider. I remember in WoTLK when people wouldn't take those without the achievement, then it turned into ilvl, then AOTC, etc.

Some people just need a chance to shine and i luv helping out new raiders because we've all been there

[callipygoustp]

It's amazing how many "top 50 guild" raiders post on mmoc. Even more so, how many of these "top 50 guild" raiders complain about not being able to do top end content.

[Kaver]

I am low on time and struggle to find pugs. So, you tell me, what should I do.

Find another game to play. It's definitely not other peoples responsibility to comply with your schedule.

Blizzard can't make the game more inclusive, because the "problem" is not about the game mechanics. It's about the people. And that will never change. People have always made the choice for themselves who they want to play with. And people who put in a lot of effort don't want to play with people who put in no effort.

It's your responsibility to find people who are in the same situation as you that want to play with you. If you can't do that, then it's too bad. It's not the games or other peoples responsibility.

If Blizzard made a system that forced people to be inclusive and play with random players then most players would quit the game. Espcecially now that Classic is releasing soon.

[Otimus]

Your attitude sucks.

The game needs to be more exclusive. We need to have the choice of who we want to play with. I don’t want to play with you and people like you. I don't want to include you in anything because you have the most lazy attitude I have ever seen (with a few exceptions).

I’m so happy that systems like rio make it possible to keep bad players far away from me. I will never group up with lazy players who cant take responsibility for their own lifes. Even if you were a good player I would still not play with you because your attitude sucks. If you were in my guild you would be kicked immediately because we cant have people who blame others for their own mistakes. I’m so happy that I will never have to deal or be in contact with players like you in game.

Thank god for sites like raider.io, warcraftlogs and wowprogress. Thank god that I can avoid players like you.

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And you will be able to play if your attitude don't sucks. Players don't want to raid with people they don't like. And players don't like a player with a lazy attitude. Saying from the start that you don't want to do this or that is a really bad way to interact with other people.

I'm never the raid leader but I always show that I'm willing to put in effort to help the team. I have never had any problems with raiding and I have never spent a dime on WoW (other than the subscription).

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This is so sad. Normally nobody will force you to know tank tactics as a dps. But this attitude that you have is so bad that you nobody wants to play with you. Raiding is a team effort and you have to be willing to put in effort. It's not about what you want. It's about helping the team.

Imagine someone having this attitude in a job in real life. That you're only willing to do what you HAVE to do. That you don't want to help your coworkers with anything unless YOU get something out of it. Just because it's not your job doesn't mean you can't help with it. It's called being a good friend or being a good team member!

I can't start to explain how sad and frustrated your mentality makes me.

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This is even more sad. The fact that you think you have to spend real money in order to raid just shows off your mentality. There are thousands of guilds in the game that raid on all different levels. You can very easily find a guild that fits your need in relation to the difficulty you want to raid and the amount of time you're willing to spend on raiding. All that is required is for you to show that you actually want to be a part of the team and to be a normal decent humanbeing for good manners. If you can't do that then nobody want to spend time with you either in game or in real life. Saying "Nah I don't want to learn about tanks" is a really bad start. It's shows a really bad attitude and nobody wants to play or spend time with a person like that.

You should read everything you said out loud and realize how silly it all sounds. It's just a game, dawg. Calm down, and have some dip. This attitude would not fly in literally any other kind of multiplayer game (Save for maybe MOBAs), and it's not like MMORPGs are even the most complicated or difficult genre that it deserves this attitude (Though, it does admittedly have a much lower skill floor than most genres). The overly exclusive attitude is pretty much why no one bothers with it. (Well, that, and the game is like playing on training wheels until you get to the end, which probably just causes a ton of people to quit because Blizzard doesn't understand what a difficulty curve is, and decided to make literally everything that isn't raiding or mythic+ super piss easy, but that's another problem entirely).

Though, I guess that also highlights another problem in that Blizzard has tried to casualize a genre that was pretty much always meant to be niche. But again, that's another problem. Though I do think that's what has lead to so much poor attitudes on pretty much all sides of the community.

[Kaver]

It's amazing how many "top 50 guild" raiders post on mmoc. Even more so, how many of these "top 50 guild" raiders complain about not being able to do top end content.

People's attitude makes me so sad. One thing is being lazy, but it's completely ridiculous to blame other people for your own lack of effort. I can't imagine those people doing very well on the job market IRL.

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You should read everything you said out loud and realize how silly it all sounds. It's just a game, dawg. Calm down, and have some dip. This attitude would not fly in literally any other kind of multiplayer game (Save for maybe MOBAs), and it's not like MMORPGs are even the most complicated or difficult genre that it deserves this attitude (Though, it does admittedly have a much lower skill floor than most genres). The overly exclusive attitude is pretty much why no one bothers with it. (Well, that, and the game is like playing on training wheels until you get to the end, which probably just causes a ton of people to quit because Blizzard doesn't understand what a difficulty curve is, and decided to make literally everything that isn't raiding or mythic+ super piss easy, but that's another problem entirely).

Though, I guess that also highlights another problem in that Blizzard has tried to casualize a genre that was pretty much always meant to be niche. But again, that's another problem. Though I do think that's what has lead to so much poor attitudes on pretty much all sides of the community.

The attitude of that guy has nothing to do with it "just being a video game". It's a general thing. He disclaims any liability. Blaming other people for your own mistakes and your own lack of effort is the worst thing you can do. It's so rude and lazy.

[horbindr]

there are always guilds 1-3 bosses ahead of you looking for people. just be bold and apply, especially in times when your class/spec is in high demand. my guild recruits people way behind us on progress all the time simply because there aren't many applicants around currently. then periodically jump to a more progressed guild.

now ofcourse, you can only really do this until you reach your skill/effort cap, at which point your options become taking a hard look at yourself and improve, be happy where you are, or become the good friend/SO of a officer(s) in a good guild. (i really cant understate how much being friends with people in a guild can help if you aren't the best player)


if you are a complete beginner, either pug heroic (may take a few weeks) or try to become friends with a guild that can carry you no problem (easiest way is probably by talking to people in M+), or even buy a boost if you are desperate. then join a heroic guild or early mythic guild and go from there.

[Battlebeard]

Find another game to play. It's definitely not other peoples responsibility to comply with your schedule.

Blizzard can't make the game more inclusive, because the "problem" is not about the game mechanics. It's about the people. And that will never change. People have always made the choice for themselves who they want to play with. And people who put in a lot of effort don't want to play with people who put in no effort.

It's your responsibility to find people who are in the same situation as you that want to play with you. If you can't do that, then it's too bad. It's not the games or other peoples responsibility.

If Blizzard made a system that forced people to be inclusive and play with random players then most players would quit the game. Espcecially now that Classic is releasing soon.

Now you called me sad before, I think this is sad. To me, it's the very opposite. Blizzard should aim to include as many people as possible at all levels of the game.

I am not saying we need enforced modes, but instead, Blizzard should fight the excluding tools that exist.

Remove all cutting edge/ahead of the curve and achievements for killing raid bosses.
Remove tracking raid boss kills on the armory.
Remove Ilvl from all gear, and let people figure out themselves by the stats if things are upgrades.
Prohibit any addons that track your gear or progression, like RIO etc.

[Kaver]

Now you called me sad before, I think this is sad. To me, it's the very opposite. Blizzard should aim to include as many people as possible at all levels of the game.

I am not saying we need enforced modes, but instead, Blizzard should fight the excluding tools that exist.

Remove all cutting edge/ahead of the curve and achievements for killing raid bosses.
Remove tracking raid boss kills on the armory.
Remove Ilvl from all gear, and let people figure out themselves by the stats if things are upgrades.
Prohibit any addons that track your gear or progression, like RIO etc.

But people would still not include you. You just don't get it. It's not about the tools and Blizzard can't do anything about it unless they force people.

We will always find a system to evaluate who we will bring to raids. No matter how many tools Blizzard remove, I would still not invite a player with your attitude towards team play.

I think your attitude is sad. Because you could very easily get into raids if you would just put in a little bit of effort and be willing to be good team player.

[Battlebeard]

But people would still not include you. You just don't get it. It's not about the tools and Blizzard can't do anything about it unless they force people.

We will always find a system to evaluate who we will bring to raids.

I think your attitude is sad. Because you could very easily get into raids if you would just put in a little bit of effort and be willing to be good team player.

They would 100% include me. I can already sometimes talk my way into groups, without these things, I could talk myself into any group there is, cause there is no way to proofcheck my claims. And I am very smooth talker so to speak. Now you shouldn't have to be a smooth talker to get in, but it will surely help.

It's not about lying either. You seem to think I am a bad player cause of my attitude, but I am quite good. Every single group now is however about me trying to convince the leader to give me a try, that he won't be dissapointed. And WHEN I eventually get invited, they NEVER get dissapointed. Now this whole begging for invite phase could be shorter and less mandatory if what I suggested happened.

[Osmeric]

The game needs to be more exclusive.

This is one of the most ridiculous, and stupid, things I've seen on these forums.

The purpose of the game isn't to validate your philosophy of life. The purpose is to make money. Making the game more exclusive is totally not the way to do that.

[Battlebeard]

there are always guilds 1-3 bosses ahead of you looking for people. just be bold and apply, especially in times when your class/spec is in high demand. my guild recruits people way behind us on progress all the time simply because there aren't many applicants around currently. then periodically jump to a more progressed guild.

now ofcourse, you can only really do this until you reach your skill/effort cap, at which point your options become taking a hard look at yourself and improve, be happy where you are, or become the good friend/SO of a officer(s) in a good guild. (i really cant understate how much being friends with people in a guild can help if you aren't the best player)


if you are a complete beginner, either pug heroic (may take a few weeks) or try to become friends with a guild that can carry you no problem (easiest way is probably by talking to people in M+), or even buy a boost if you are desperate. then join a heroic guild or early mythic guild and go from there.

And if you don't want to swap guilds? What if you have long time friends in your guild and don't wanna leave them?

"find a guild" is only a solution for the guildless.

My guild is a mix, there are many casuals, who have no interest or skill for HC.

There is also the Mythic team that just killed Mythic Jaina, not top notch, but decent team. Still I can't join mythic, no way with my time schedule.

And then there is the HC team, sadly they only ever raid saturdays, the only day i can never play on. Sadly, I have no use of my guild raidwise. But they are cool guys and we talk alot, I don't wanna leave them for a few more HC raid invites, nor should that be required.

[Kaver]

They would 100% include me. I can already sometimes talk my way into groups, without these things, I could talk myself into any group there is, cause there is no way to proofcheck my claims. And I am very smooth talker so to speak. Now you shouldn't have to be a smooth talker to get in, but it will surely help.

It's not about lying either. You seem to think I am a bad player cause of my attitude, but I am quite good. Every single group now is however about me trying to convince the leader to give me a try, that he won't be dissapointed. And WHEN I eventually get invited, they NEVER get dissapointed. Now this whole begging for invite phase could be shorter and less mandatory if what I suggested happened.

But you're ONE player. What about all the players who are actually bad? Should we all be tricked to waste hundreds of hours playing with them and wipe on bosses over and over again because they are not willing to learn mechanics etc?

Would you be willing to wipe on the same bosses over and over again everytime you joined a raid? Do you think you could kill heroic Jaina if you invited completely random people without looking at ilvl or anything?



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And if you don't want to swap guilds? What if you have long time friends in your guild and don't wanna leave them?

"find a guild" is only a solution for the guildless.

My guild is a mix, there are many casuals, who have no interest or skill for HC.

There is also the Mythic team that just killed Mythic Jaina, not top notch, but decent team. Still I can't join mythic, no way with my time schedule.

And then there is the HC team, sadly they only ever raid saturdays, the only day i can never play on. Sadly, I have no use of my guild raidwise. But they are cool guys and we talk alot, I don't wanna leave them for a few more HC raid invites, nor should that be required.

That's your problem. If you prioritize staying in that guild then it's your responsibility to put in effort to raid.

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This is one of the most ridiculous, and stupid, things I've seen on these forums.

The purpose of the game isn't to validate your philosophy of life. The purpose is to make money. Making the game more exclusive is totally not the way to do that.

I agree. Thank you for your input.

[anon5123]

And people ignore it with comments like "just make your own group", "get gud" or things like that, when in reality, it's not that easy..

It literally is that easy, lol

in modern WoW you can get raid-level gear from running 5mans, once you're geared enough you can just link a fake achievement to get into whatever pug raid you want.

Or just, y'know, stop being a lazy shit and join a guild.

[Osmeric]

Or just, y'know, stop being a lazy shit and join a guild.

An interesting thing about game design is that "players should just X" is NEVER a valid defense of a design.

Players, in aggregate, will do whatever it is they do, and the game designers have to accept that and work with it. They don't get to redesign their customers, or insist that the customers are responsible for a failure. The customers are paying to play, not vice versa, and responsibility flows in the same direction as the money.

[Kaver]

An interesting thing about game design is that "players should just X" is NEVER a valid defense of a design.

Players, in aggregate, will do whatever it is they do, and the game designers have to accept that and work with it. They don't get to redesign their customers, or insist that the customers are responsible for a failure. The customers are paying to play, not vice versa, and responsibility flows in the same direction as the money.

They did implement 4 different difficulties of raiding to fit all customers. People should just choose the difficulty that fit their time schedule and skill level. I have no problems with LFR, because it gives everyone the possibility to experience raids.

[Osmeric]

They did implement 4 different difficulties of raiding to fit all customers.

Yes. I'm not sure that was the best approach for their employer, though. That design still sends the message "you suck!" to most of the players. I think it's quite possible a game with no difficult content would have done better.

[Kaver]

Yes. I'm not sure that was the best approach for their employer, though. That design still sends the message "you suck!" to most of the players. I think it's quite possible a game with no difficult content would have done better.

But imagine making a group based on Battlebeard's suggestion for a boss with similar difficulty to e.g. heroic Jaina, heroic Kil'Jaeden etc.

So you can't see ilvl or anything. The players you invite to the group are completely random and only based on what they tell you (people lie). It would result in you wiping over and over again everytime you should kill the boss. Essentially it would remove pug'ing from the game (which might be a good thing) because nobody would be able to withstand it in the long run.

[Illana]

They did implement 4 different difficulties of raiding to fit all customers. People should just choose the difficulty that fit their time schedule and skill level. I have no problems with LFR, because it gives everyone the possibility to experience raids.

calling lfr raiding is a very very generous use of the term though.

Tbh I think LFR has an overall negative effect, it removes any kind of motivation to do actual raiding, finding a community or actually achieve something you're proud of.

When I started in wotlk, I would walk around dalaran looking at the people who had awesome gear and ask them: "How did you get that?". Then I eventually figured out what I needed to do and my journey started.

Ended the ICC tier with full 277 heroic (didn't get my LK crossbow QQ) gear and feeling like I'd earned every part of it.

However that's just the end of the journey, there were so many high points like my FIRST ever set piece I got from doing trial of the crusader which set me on the path to being able to raid ICC. Getting my first part of Tier 10 from VoA, finding a guild who was progressing 10man normal since I finally hit around 4.5k gearscore. Killing the lich king for the very first time etc.

You just don't get that experience anymore and LFR is one of the things contributing to the demise of that playstyle.