How come BfA is worse than Legion?

[Taeldorian]

I wouldnt call them personalized, as other then "these traits are abit more powerful" you all had EVERYTHING the same.

yes class quests, somethign that has nothing to do with artifacts, as we have had class quests without them, we can have class quests without them.

and skins to unlock... we have had that since vanilla, its called weapon drops. while yes i did like the unlock system, i am glad we finally have weapons back.

and i would love to hear how the upcoming heart of azeroth changes are lacking compared to artifact weapons?
cause these will have FAR more choices, and.. actual choice, instead of "you demo lock, you have this"

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"almost an entire year" i mean i guess 9 months is close to 12? whatever.
also again i cant agree with the "my class doesent work without X" but maybe thats because warlock specs are constantly changing, but i have never felt that for all of the specs.



also you missed this

"In legion I had Tyrs deliverance, Power of the silver hand and Savior which were all actives"

also funny, savior and power of the silver hand WERE NOT ACTIVES
so man, stop lying, please.

Power of the silver hand was 100% an active. It was a random proc but the proc itself was an active. When it procced it’d increase the healing of Holy shock based on how much healing you’d do in the next 10 seconds. This was extremely good for m+ where you could save a small cd or two and use it when power was up to get a ton of healing on your next holy shock. This also worked pretty well with AoS as you could dump a lot of healing into the PoTSH window, pop AoS and have an insane holy shock to transfer through AoS.

The light saves (I called it savior on accident) was also a semi active trait. When your beacon target fell below 50% your next FoL/HL will heal for 100% to that target. This wasn’t something to play around but it was helpful to be aware of it especially with BoV in dungeons.

It’s pretty clearly based on that you really aren’t aware of what artifacts did for certain classes. I’m not sure how it is for locks right now but there’s plenty of classes that don’t have much choice and a majority of their choices are just straight up boring passives. Hell even one of the traits you listed is a passive that just increases dmg done by an ability and you somehow think that’s what azerite should be providing? The only reason it’s providing that is because it needs to or else the ability it buffs wouldn’t be used because classes at the baseline level are garbage and incomplete without azerite.

I know you love defending the game at every possible corner but both azerite and artifacts are garbage systems that are unhealthy for class design. In legion we had a few more class systems that helped which is the only reason class design wasn’t abysmal like it is in BfA. Whether you agree or not doesn’t really matter, considering Ion himself said azerite gear will be used to fill gaps in rotations shows that they rely on rental gear to make classes function which means they will not function without it which is not good especially considering this gets removed at the end of the expac.

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They won't. Or at least, they probably won't. We're stuck with this system for the rest of the game's life, because it increases player retention by forcing you to play more often. It was the same thing with Garrisons/Class Halls/Missions Tables. They get you to log in multiple times a day, which reflects very positively on Blizzard's internal record keeping. The best we can hope for is that they improve the system a little bit, because Azerite Armor is seriously fucking terrible it is legitimately the worst shit I've ever seen it's impressive how not good it is.

They mentioned in one of their recent interviews they don’t like how artifacts and azerite have turned out. I’m not sure what they mean by this exactly or what they’re plan is but they can most likely add an AP grind elsewhere and have it fill the same role with player retention that this shitty rental gear does. For example, if they decide to remove titanforging they could add an upgrade system to gear similar to what we had in MoP and have the currency farmable from WQs/raids/dungeons/etc. This is just brainstorming but there’s probably better ways to retain players without class design suffering.

They also could keep these rental systems but make them bonuses. Most of the azerite and artifact traits are just for tuning which is insanely dumb. They should focus on making classes function properly at the baseline level and then add in a system like these to just give a few more actives/passives to classes, specifically passives that aren’t “increases shadow volley dmg by x%”.

[Infernix]

Just goes to show how individual "best" and "worst" type of comparisons are. For me Legion is absolutely worst expac they've ever done. It was miles worse than WoD, which to me was actually quite decent and very playable expac.

I haven't seen BFA, because Legion made me quit.

Just out of sheer morbid curiosity, what about Legion made you quit?

[Benomatic]

It isn't. For me it's better.

Better zones, better music, better atmosphere, better ambiance. The zones in Legion were painstaking to traverse and exceptionally insipid.

The lore is new and interesting compared to legion and demon fatigue.

Class halls were a mess, felt disorgranised, disjointed. They felt out of place and shoe horned in. A lot of the halls made no sense and did the factions no favours by being huddled together.

Wielding artifact weapons made me cringe and in the end was pointless and immersion breaking.

[MatadorMedia]

Legion was all about the classes standing out on their own, granting multiple new abilities, and gave us an epic storyline to follow. BFA decided to make all the classes play the same, lose their fun abilities, and give us a recycled faction war story that doesn't even try to make sense. They took everything good about Legion and destroyed it in BFA.

[Nathasil]

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Your posts in this thread are just completely baffling.

No, there are no more ways to play your warlock now than in Legion. There is exactly ONE way per scenario which requires certain traits. If you do not have those traits you do not play "another playstyle"...you are playing an inferior playstyle. Which is EXACTLY the same situation as with Legiondaries. It is slightly less random than the first half of Legion where you could not trget specific legendaries, but it is way more random than the second half of Legion where you could target legendaries.

Then there are Tier sets which BFA replaced with jack shit nothing.

And then you completely failed to adress the first post you even answered to, which said there were MORE - as in "numerically more" - traits on the Artifact Weapon compared to all three Azerite pieces combined. All Artifact Weapons had 20-25 traits. Azerite gives you 3*4. And it gets even worse when you look at the fact that most specs do not even wear 12 different traits but try and stack 2 traits. So you end up at ~7 different traits on optimal gear.

You may like your specific spec more now than in Legion. Which is subjective but your god damn right. But you cannot argue that Artifact Weapons had an entire MAGN ITUDE of traits more numerically which for some specs were definetly on par or even superior to what Azerite offers now and THEN you still had Legendaries - which were targetable for the second half of Legion - and Tier Sets.

You trying to defend the shrinking down of gearing mechanics by ~factor 3 and even trying to argue that it is not the case is just....i don't even have a word for it. Really.

[kaminaris]

I know you love defending the game at every possible corner but both azerite and artifacts are garbage systems that are unhealthy for class design. In legion we had a few more class systems that helped which is the only reason class design wasn’t abysmal like it is in BfA. Whether you agree or not doesn’t really matter, considering Ion himself said azerite gear will be used to fill gaps in rotations shows that they rely on rental gear to make classes function which means they will not function without it which is not good especially considering this gets removed at the end of the expac.

Actually this guy you are responding to is 100% correct and you have no clue what you are talking about.

Azerite gear itself is the best thing that happened in WoW since MoP. On 8.2 it should be close to perfect.
Artifacts were garbage, no choice at all. AND you had to farm for other specs separately. Azerite is garbage as well.

Previously tier sets were used to somehow balance the classes, but that never worked well.
Class design is just as bad as it was before, blizzard should simply fire people responsible for class balance.

And the only thing you are correct - no gear should be used to balance classes since gear will be gone and class will be a mess without it. Just like tier sets were, and legendaries in legion.

[jstnw89]

It's pretty simple.. Bfa is a stripped down copy of legion.. It being basically the same type of shit is bad enough but the fact that they neutered the systems with nothing equal to replace them with just makes it a worse version of legion.. even if azerite armor was great / better than artifacts, tiers sets, etc in Legion.. the shit was already stale at the end of Legion.. People don't want the exact samey feel two expansions in a row.

The things Bfa added are just inconsequential / mindless (IEs and warfronts) which makes them not even figure into the equation.

[Taeldorian]

Actually this guy you are responding to is 100% correct and you have no clue what you are talking about.

Azerite gear itself is the best thing that happened in WoW since MoP. On 8.2 it should be close to perfect.
Artifacts were garbage, no choice at all. AND you had to farm for other specs separately. Azerite is garbage as well.

Previously tier sets were used to somehow balance the classes, but that never worked well.
Class design is just as bad as it was before, blizzard should simply fire people responsible for class balance.

And the only thing you are correct - no gear should be used to balance classes since gear will be gone and class will be a mess without it. Just like tier sets were, and legendaries in legion.

I’m really not sure how you can manage to tell me I don’t know what I’m talking about (which could be a fair assessment, I have no issue being wrong) and then go on to contradict yourself twice. You literally said azerite is the best thing since MoP and then go on to say it’s garbage.

I’m really not sure how you can defend a system that has you farm AP only to take away the traits you earned once a new season starts or you got a higher ilvl piece of gear. Yes, 8.2 will fix this and I’m happy for it but it’s been ~9 months so far. Artifacts may not have given you a choice but at the very least they didnt reset every single new tier (season in BfA).

Im not going to argue about azerite any further. It’s a garbage system just like artifacts for different reasons. If you love it, great, keep loving it. I don’t support rental gear in WoW at all and the two times we’ve had it were both negative. Classes need to be functional baseline before they consider adding rental gear like Azerite/artifacts, they can’t use these systems to make classes functional anymore it just isn’t working especially because they get removed after the expansion is over.

[Voidwielder]

Legion was a good expansion. In time, people will come to recognize it as a peak, similar to WoTKL.

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It's not only Artifacts.

We had an entire zone, with it's unique assets and several very-well flesh out and interesting characters, dedicated to a storyline that was intricately integrated in to the overarching plot - Suramar. I still can't believe they failed to replicate that.

Profession levelling, for the first time since Wrath, was engaging and initially, quite challenging.

Let's not forget Mage Tower - the thing that made me level every single class to 120 and learn at least 2 specs to be able to complete it (did 24 before Argus was out). It was exactly the kind of content that this game needs. And the reward in most cases was very, very well worth it. I still get people asking about my Outlaw rapiers every other day.

Also the Honour system presented rewards that most of us wanted - good looking mounts, titles and other benefits. Yes, they are still there. But it was new.

And for a casual lore-lover like myself, doing all 12 Order Hall quest lines was awesome. Some of them were genuinely epic and exciting. Once again, complete failure to learn and replicate that.

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When you look at the changes that Legion brought to the game compared to WoD, BfA simply comes out as a lesser, tuned down and sadly, less full imitation.

[shise]

Is not worse. Legion was a full expansion, BfA is a filler.

[Dakara]

Personally I quite like Azerite armor... not the DPS traits, but the utility traits. My Mage for example, has a set with 3x Cauterizing Blink traits for soloing. This sort of customization is good for the game, encouraging swapping out gear sets depending on the content.

Where they completely made a mess of things, was tying those traits into your neck level.... oh wow, a higher ilvl piece of AZ gear, too bad I can't use it because my neck too low!

The other big issue with BfA, is Azerite Armor was not a suitable substitute for Artifact weapons. Had Blizzard filled in the gaps created by the loss of Artifacts with expanded talent trees and/or better class design, we might of accepted Azerite Armor on it's own merit. Instead, it simply didn't account for what we lost and thus felt lacking.

Then we have the issue of BFA basically being Legion 2.0 when it comes to WQ's, Mythic+, Pathfinder, AP grinds etc. The scenery changed but the formula didn't and I think we were all a bit over it after Legion.

I understand Blizzards desire for some form of endgame progression that isn't tied to ilvl, but grinding AP has never been fun.... even more so on Alts or Re-rolling new mains, regardless of catchup mechanics. At the moment, a new 120 will gear up vastly quicker than they'll level their HoA, thus most traits will be locked.

And finally, loot... it's a mess. I don't mind the welfare epics from WQ's etc, but aiming for the same Mythic + drops each "season" just at the new higher ilvl cap is teriible design. New season should bring new loot tables IMHO.

[tripleh]

Artifact weapons were actually cool to have. After loosing them the story and gameplay kinda got bland. Sadly, every expansion is like this. The devs always changing things that don't need to be.

[RobertoCarlos]

There's a theory that they have two teams working on expansions and the second team is really fucking bad.

This team did Warlords of Draenor, skipped Legion and did BfA.

oh boy the two team theory. That one is a real treat.

One team locks themselves away in the cupboards at blizz HQ eating tacos and drinking mountain drew awaiting their turn.

Class design was forgotten/ignored so game is poop

[AlmightyGerkin]

In Legion we got the artifacts which I enjoyed a lot. Lore around them, traits, abilities, quest lines etc. More you did content the stronger it became with relics and upgrading to its max felt rewarding. And also the mage tower which tested you on how well you knew your class except the 2 npc hunter, mage etc challenge where you just kite him and nothing really happened compared to others. In Legion you had things to do such as wpvp with bareback brawl and murloc freedom to completing your order hall etc. As for BFA we lost our "talent tree" along with abilities and got traits that players could really care less about and Blizzard had a difficult time "balancing" when 8.0 came. Had more time to work on Legion since they gave up on WoD and more time than BFA.

Just my two cents on why Legion beats BFA so far.

[shuubu]

Essentially, BFA is just a worse version of Legion, which was great.

Artifact system just beat the living shite out of Azerite armor in all it's aspects.

The worst part is that the GCD changes really the killed the fun out of so many specs that they just aren't fun to play anymore. And if the game isn't fun to play anymore, why play it?

[TickerDS]

The two biggest issues are honestly a lack of steady end game content outside of raiding and a completely broken gear/reward loop.

If there was a steady drip or an occasional flood of good content at end game and/or the reward loop was solid, the issues with classes and the off lore would be easier to live with. (not that they are not issues)

Legion had lore problems and classes had problems, but there was always the next thing to do to keep you distracted and the gear loop was OK most of the time regarding ilvl.

You had the chase of legendaries from virtually any event in game along with AP power and traits to keep you going. Gold was also something you could chase after with ease if that was your jam.

In BFA, the ilvl cycle and balance between WQ, Mythics, Raiding, and other various content seems to be out of wack. Every patch they seem to completely break the value of certain features of the game due to the reward not equating to the effort -- either because the content is too time consuming/hard or something else is much easier/shorter.

Additionally, there is not that random chance of a legendary or like item that makes doing older content/lesser content worth doing. When I had free time in Legion I had incentive to run LFR to get a legendary to drop. Same with lower key mythics and such.....which helped provide other players with a larger pool of geared players to play with.

And gold is harder to get, and there are alot more gold sinks. (which could be good or bad)

It feels like blizz does not have a team dedicated to the reward loop.....which is such a huge part of the game....

[Doffen]

Legion was the second best expansion to date. Best content, best gameplay, story was decent and the deliverence of said content was splendid. Artifact progression was good and made you do an effort to progress your character. Legion had awesome solo content like mage tower and the class halls, which was the second best addition of content we have had in the game since it started, except for mythic+ wich is just brilliant.

Azerite system isn't close to artifact system. It's way too easy to max out, and doesn't require you to do any effort. I got alts so BfA is really alt-friendly, but some times I think that it's bit to much on the easy side. You know the system isn't good enough when you don't notice it's really there. No grind needed, no real effort needed, and that is in my opinion a flaw with system like that.

If I didn't have those thick rose tinted glasses from TBC I would say Legion was the best of them all. Definitely better on the content side.

[Alvito]

More routes to rewards and more cross over of rewards for single activities. From my own stand point the raids and dungeons are much worst in BfA. Add in the new BfA features are lack luster at best and out right shitty in some settings it is easy to be frustrated by the expansion. The cherry on top being the hot mess that is Azerite gear.

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There's a theory that they have two teams working on expansions and the second team is really fucking bad.

This team did Warlords of Draenor, skipped Legion and did BfA.

Well that is some nonsense. So you think they develop an expansion for 4+ years with 1 team and they just play leap frog with expansions. What a glorious waste of payroll.

[Ethas]

Personally for me this patch lacks lore progression so much. When I was questing in Legion for race unlocks I experienced one of the best lore in this game at a steady pace. Now we got like 1 quest per patch which gives absolutely nothing new and only confuses things more. And then you have to wait another 6 months to get the next quest in the chain. This is ridiculous.

[Lochton]

oh how soon people seem to forget about legendaries in legion, that most speccs / classes couldnt function without BiS ones. And people also seem to forget about the ridicilous RNG they added for artifact relics in the ship.

The only thing that Bfa is worse than Legion, is the story (lore). It has turned to absolute garbage, with cheesy clichés.

I WAS SO HAPPY TO SEE THE LEGENDARY ADDICTION GONE!

*sighs* Was getting annoying when a legendary had a mandatory calculation in one's specc.