A playerbase divided

[Ielenia]

Yes it does. Time investment and patient is just different type of difficulty.

It doesn't. Filling a bucket with water one drop at a time is not "harder" than just filling it by opening the water tap the rest of the way. It's just slower and "requires more time investment and patience."

Working out also isnt difficult. You just lift freaking weight.

Exactly. "Lifting weight" by itself is not difficult. I can lift 1-pound weights all day long. Easy. The difficulty comes from pushing your limits when lifting weights or basically any exercise.

By this logic you can say nothing in world is difficult becouse everything just takes time.

And I demonstrated how your logic is faulty.

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Is nothing compared to the artifact power mythic raider tax...

That never existed?

[Sharein]

Even then you could still kill the majority of the bosses. Try clear mythic crucible or kill mythic jaina with half the raid being brain dead idiots. It would never happen. Shit, you'd never GET there for it to happen in the first place.

I cleared MC with 10 players back in classic.

In terms of intensity and "skill required" it is as hard as present days' normal raiding.

Classic raiding isn't hard. The only thing that will slow progress down is the lack of gear that can be obtained outside raiding.

[rrayy]

This argument is so tiring. People have literally been playing Classic for 10+ years on private servers. Many of them still aren't tired of it. It's not just nostalgia goggles, it's not just a "you think you do, but you don't" situation. It's a genuine desire to play a radically different version of the game. Retail and Classic are not only different games now, they're practically different genres at this point. There's no RPG left in BfA.

While yes, Classic has a lower skill ceiling and a much grindier overall feel, that does not in any way make it a worse game. It has heart. It has depth. it doesn't hold your hand and coddle your balls like 99% of retail content.

Disagree. Grindy and tedious does not = heart. ANd you are delusional if you don't think nostal;gia is a factor right now. I GUARANTEE that over half who start playing classic will quit when the nostalgia wears off and they remember just how tedious and grindy the game was and when they run out of content because there is really no endgame.

[Has lost its way]

It doesn't. Filling a bucket with water one drop at a time is not "harder" than just filling it by opening the water tap the rest of the way. It's just slower and "requires more time investment and patience."


Exactly. "Lifting weight" by itself is not difficult. I can lift 1-pound weights all day long. Easy. The difficulty comes from pushing your limits when lifting weights or basically any exercise.


And I demonstrated how your logic is faulty.

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That never existed?

It didn't exist if you didn't push mythic in a meaningful way.

Yeah its a problem that only effects 1% of the player base likely less but artifact power is a system so bad it doesn't actually benefit anyone. It's target audience will never notice it and it becomes a grindy chore to the more progressed players. It exists to pad time and only to pad time.

[rrayy]

Yes it does. Time investment and patient is just different type of difficulty. Working out also isnt difficult. You just lift freaking weight. What is hard about work out is perstitance and patience and both takes time.

By this logic you can say nothing in world is difficult becouse everything just takes time.

No it doesn't. There is nothing hard about about a workout. There is nothing difficult about tediousness and time spent either. Classis was never difficult. Just tedious.

[Mullet Man]

Disagree. Grindy and tedious does not = heart. ANd you are delusional if you don't think nostal;gia is a factor right now. I GUARANTEE that over half who start playing classic will quit when the nostalgia wears off and they remember just how tedious and grindy the game was and when they run out of content because there is really no endgame.

Why do you think millions of players have stopped playing retail WoW?

[Relapses]

Why do you think millions of players have stopped playing retail WoW?

Why do you think millions wouldn't have stopped playing Classic if they had never came out with other expansions? Or do you prefer to live in a fantasy world where market saturation doesn't exist, subscriber churn isn't a thing and if Blizzard had just kept the game exactly the way you prefer it, it would have one hundred million subscribers today and be the most popular video game of all time?

[Ielenia]

Why do you think millions of players have stopped playing retail WoW?

Attributing people leaving WoW to one single reason is, at best, very disingenuous.

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It didn't exist if you didn't push mythic in a meaningful way.

Yeah its a problem that only effects 1% of the player base likely less but artifact power is a system so bad it doesn't actually benefit anyone. It's target audience will never notice it and it becomes a grindy chore to the more progressed players. It exists to pad time and only to pad time.

I didn't really. Playing very casually on the world quest front, both during Legion and BfA, I never had any issues keeping up with the Artifact/Azerite levels.

This so-called "issue" is nothing but player-made who decided to compete among themselves.

[toffmcsoft]

Classic PVP is WAY better then retail PVP. Much more skill involved.

[Mullet Man]

Why do you think millions wouldn't have stopped playing Classic if they had never came out with other expansions? Or do you prefer to live in a fantasy world where market saturation doesn't exist, subscriber churn isn't a thing and if Blizzard had just kept the game exactly the way you prefer it, it would have one hundred million subscribers today and be the most popular video game of all time?

You didn't answer the question... and you are missing the point.
People are going to stop playing Classic and Retail for various reason.
Implying that Classic is a failure because some don't like the playstyle also implies that Retail is a failure in your eyes because people have stopped playing.

[crakerjack]

Nope, has never been anything new. There has always been people bickering within the community. PvPers and PvErs have been at each others throats before. Twinks vs high end PVP has been a thing in the past. Casual vs Hardcore players. The cycle has always been around.

[Marxman]

Disagree. Grindy and tedious does not = heart. ANd you are delusional if you don't think nostal;gia is a factor right now. I GUARANTEE that over half who start playing classic will quit when the nostalgia wears off and they remember just how tedious and grindy the game was and when they run out of content because there is really no endgame.

Of course Nostalgia is a factor for some, particularly those who haven't played Vanilla private servers. It'd be silly to argue otherwise. However, to chalk all of the Classic hype up to nostalgia and people just "not knowing what's good for them" or something like that, is equally ridiculous. A LOT of people know exactly what they're getting into. They understand how tedious and time-consuming it will be, and actively want that gameplay style.

I am under no delusions that everyone who tries Classic will love it. I'm sure a vast majority of BfA players who try it will hate it simply because of the pacing. It's not for everyone... but neither is BfA, with it's ARPG class design and RNG-focused garbage loot system.

Saying the game has "no endgame" is laughable. There's more to do in Classic at 60 than there is in BfA at 120, and what is there to do takes more time to complete. If your argument is there is "no endgame", then BfA also has "no endgame".

[Has lost its way]

Attributing people leaving WoW to one single reason is, at best, very disingenuous.

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I didn't really. Playing very casually on the world quest front, both during Legion and BfA, I never had any issues keeping up with the Artifact/Azerite levels.

This so-called "issue" is nothing but player-made who decided to compete among themselves.

So?

How does that have anything to do with the conversation? It is still meaningless for people not pushing mythic and still a pointless grind through trivial content for those who do.

Do you just feel a compulsive need to protect irrelevant systems that hamper other people's enjoyment of something?

[Ielenia]

So?

How does that have anything to do with the conversation? It is still meaningless for people not pushing mythic and still a pointless grind through trivial content for those who do.

Do you just feel a compulsive need to protect irrelevant systems that hamper other people's enjoyment of something?

Except this "mythic AP tax" is a nonsense that does not and has not existed.

Whereas grinding for stuff like Onyxia cloak, the waters for the MC raid, etc, those are things required for progression to all guilds, regardless if they're pushing world firsts or just going casually.

[Has lost its way]

Except this "mythic AP tax" is a nonsense that does not and has not existed.

Whereas grinding for stuff like Onyxia cloak, the waters for the MC raid, etc, those are things required for progression to all guilds, regardless if they're pushing world firsts or just going casually.

I think you are just ignorant of the game beyond our own sphere of comfort... if you can't activate the azerite on equipment in mythic your best solution is to use heroic gear until you are able to...

You can't seem to make a argument for AP so instead you keep trying to shift it to other areas. The Cloak actually wasn't required by every member as you could immune the check. It is also a vastly different situation as the cloak was received through raiding not by completing arbitrarily pointless tasks.

[Ielenia]

I think you are just ignorant of the game beyond our own sphere of comfort...

Says the guy talking about a "tax" that simply never existed.

if you can't activate the azerite on equipment in mythic your best solution is to use heroic gear until you are able to...

Again, getting AP is really easy. Those going for "world first" would have rushed their way to max level and started gathering AP much sooner than the rest of the rest of the players, meaning their Azerite necklace level was already higher than everyone else. You're arguing a point that simply does not exist.

You can't seem to make a argument for AP so instead you keep trying to shift it to other areas.

I'm not. You are the one trying to an argument against AP by talking about something that never existed.

The Cloak actually wasn't required by every member as you could immune the check.

It's irrelevant because you still need the majority of your raid to have it.

It is also a vastly different situation as the cloak was received through raiding not by completing arbitrarily pointless tasks.

This is also moving of the goalposts.

[Has lost its way]

Says the guy talking about a "tax" that simply never existed.


Again, getting AP is really easy. Those going for "world first" would have rushed their way to max level and started gathering AP much sooner than the rest of the rest of the players, meaning their Azerite necklace level was already higher than everyone else. You're arguing a point that simply does not exist.


I'm not. You are the one trying to an argument against AP by talking about something that never existed.


It's irrelevant because you still need the majority of your raid to have it.


This is also moving of the goalposts.

Your counter points don't make any sense... because they leveled faster something that doesn't matter beyond split running at the method level they should expect to grind mindless content for ap?

I don't understand the need you feel to defend a system without any redeeming qualities. If they just flat out removed AP the game would be better for it. It doesn't serve anyone beyond people who no life it to cap.

[Ielenia]

Your counter points don't make any sense... because they leveled faster something that doesn't matter beyond split running at the method level they should expect to grind mindless content for ap?

You said "world first mythic raiders need to get AP to get all their gear's abilities unlocked", and I simply pointed out it's a rather moot point to make because those players have reached max level much sooner than other people and so started doing world quest and emissaries for AP much sooner than other people so their neck is much higher level than others, hence negating your argument.

I don't understand the need you feel to defend a system without any redeeming qualities.

I'm not saying it's without flaws. It's far from perfect. Or even adequate. But what you are doing is making false accusations citing a "tax" that doesn't exist.

[Gadzooks]

There's more to do in Classic at 60 than there is in BfA at 120

I agree 100% with everything you said, but this, no. Just no. It was a major issue back then - at 60, it was raid, or die. There was no progression in the game past 60, and if you wanted to max professions, you had to raid. That's why alts were such a thing, because if you hit 60, and didn't raid...well, roll another. TBC addressed this, and they started adding stuff to do that wasn't tied to raiding - and worked so well they gained even more players. Non-raiders were starving. For ANYTHING.

[Has lost its way]

You said "world first mythic raiders need to get AP to get all their gear's abilities unlocked", and I simply pointed out it's a rather moot point to make because those players have reached max level much sooner than other people and so started doing world quest and emissaries for AP much sooner than other people so their neck is much higher level than others, hence negating your argument.


I'm not saying it's without flaws. It's far from perfect. Or even adequate. But what you are doing is making false accusations citing a "tax" that doesn't exist.

You don't find it weird to both admit I am right then try to back pedal in the same post?

Honestly son I'm starting to feel sorry for you so let me explain to you what you just typed.

You admit that mythic first as you put it have to farm ap therefore already surrendering that point that it does exist...