The Warchief Casino.

[Haytham]

Does this title even mean anything significant anymore ?

• Thrall was once a cool character and then they had to use him in such a cringy way people got sick of him.

• In comes Garrosh, who had a decent story and saw growth as a character in the Wotlk campaign as well as Cataclysm.Does not take long until Blizzard makes him the evil guy then proceeds to axe him.

• Vol'jin one of the original characters from "back in the day" gets to have the title and does pretty much nothing.Gets killed so Blizzard has a reason to put Sylvanas.

• Finally, Sylvanas gets to be warchief.As expected her story takes a turn for the worst,with Blizzard encouraging members of the Horde faction to hate on this character that has been in the game since forever.Banished ? Killed ? Who knows...

• Now,they are teasing Thrall again with the warchief title.

So,what does this title even mean anymore ? Because the way i see it,if you get the Warchief title it guarantees you the following : the character is killed / turned evil or story forever ruined.

Please stay away from Lor'themar.

[Sarrgoth]

Does this title even mean anything significant anymore ?

• Thrall was once a cool character and then they had to use him in such a cringy way people got sick of him.

• In comes Garrosh, who had a decent story and saw growth as a character in the Wotlk campaign as well as Cataclysm.Does not take long until Blizzard makes him the evil guy then proceeds to axe him.

• Vol'jin one of the original characters from "back in the day" gets to have the title and does pretty much nothing.Gets killed so Blizzard has a reason to put Sylvanas.

• Finally, Sylvanas gets to be warchief.As expected her story takes a turn for the worst,with Blizzard encouraging members of the Horde faction to hate on this character that has been in the game since forever.Banished ? Killed ? Who knows...

• Now,they are teasing Thrall again with the warchief title.

So,what does this title even mean anymore ? Because the way i see it,if you get the Warchief title it guarantees you the following : the character is killed / turned evil or story forever ruined.

Please stay away from Lor'themar.

Lor'thewho? Lor'thedonenothingever?

[mickybrighteyes]

Lor'thewho? Lor'thedonenothingever?

Lor'thecavestoJaina Kinslayer First of his name Regent Lord of Quel'thalas He who walks behind those who stride the sun Shadow ender... you will know her name!

[Super Dickmann]

Lor'thewho? Lor'thedonenothingever?

The guy who burns his balls in a brazier in the next patch in honor of the God-King, explaining his horrendous new voice acting.

[StationaryHawk]

Lor'thewho? Lor'thedonenothingever?

Yet still manages to have a larger presence than Baine.

[Evaddon]

Lor'thewho? Lor'thedonenothingever?

He has literally done something every Expansion lol, that meme has been dead since MoP

- - - Updated - - -

Yet still manages to have a larger presence than Baine.

Because he's a better character and more sensible then half of the Warcraft roaster of characters

- - - Updated - - -

Does this title even mean anything significant anymore ?

• Thrall was once a cool character and then they had to use him in such a cringy way people got sick of him.

• In comes Garrosh, who had a decent story and saw growth as a character in the Wotlk campaign as well as Cataclysm.Does not take long until Blizzard makes him the evil guy then proceeds to axe him.

• Vol'jin one of the original characters from "back in the day" gets to have the title and does pretty much nothing.Gets killed so Blizzard has a reason to put Sylvanas.

• Finally, Sylvanas gets to be warchief.As expected her story takes a turn for the worst,with Blizzard encouraging members of the Horde faction to hate on this character that has been in the game since forever.Banished ? Killed ? Who knows...

• Now,they are teasing Thrall again with the warchief title.

So,what does this title even mean anymore ? Because the way i see it,if you get the Warchief title it guarantees you the following : the character is killed / turned evil or story forever ruined.

Please stay away from Lor'themar.

They're not teasing Thrall, he specifically said he won't lead the Horde, but he will fight for it. There's a difference. But me personally I think Thrall is going to die trying. I don't think Sylvanas is going to fail or fall like everyone is speculating
____________________________________________
Lor'themar has been the most leader like character out of them all, I'd like to see that because I think it would take a more Imperial turn for the horde, but yeah I don't want to see them dramatically change his character in Garrosh fashion. Atleast Sylvanas has always been like this just in the shadows and small doses! But I don't think Lor'themar would want to lead the horde, he still hasn't taken the title of King for his people

[KrakHed]

Well, it's really been a wild ride, but I think we have to understand that the root of our Musical Warchief issue is miscommunication and incompetence, as the writers simply aren't on the same page.

Garrosh: For instance, Garrosh and Thrall went down together in the same mess of miscommunication. We must remember, Garrosh was described to be a wise and strong person back on Outland. When he first reappeared in the story, he was a petulant brat. Implied to be younger than Thrall, but older by necessity of being brown when his dad was the first to go green.

Blizzard wanted to drum up internal conflict and controversy, as well as "put the WAR back in WARcraft, nevermind the WORLD", so they had Garrosh acting like a stupid douche all through WotLK. It caused the majority of fans to see him in an extremely negative light. His Cata model didn't help either, since I think he literally drools with his mouth agape. The writers they hired seemed to have the idea Garrosh was supposed to improve, as did Afrasiabi, so we see bits and pieces of that around. This had the result of throwing Thrall under the bus a little, to give Garrosh justification.

However, what we saw ingame was still mostly Garrosh being fucking stupid. His character growth never materialized, so it remained that the majority of people never got a reason to like the man from what they actually saw of his character. Garrosh was at his best when the committed to him being a supervillain instead of a controversial leader. Now there wasn't a need for him to "grow", but to simply be a threatening villain. He didn't need to mature, so now he could be a devious villain.

Of course, that also meant that Thrall had picked the second worst possible successor, which wasn't a good look on him. And because this was the plot they were going with, the villain they wanted to use, Thrall has to basically not intervene til it's time for the story to end. So he's an irresponsible shithead by necessity of game design.

Thrall: They made him appoint the "controversial" character who they never bothered developing, and instead took the lazy route of making him go villain and killing him off. They focused a lot of story on his personal issues and marriage in gameplay quests. I think they learned from that, at least a little, and are using cinematics for that kind of thing now. And people rightfully saw "Thrall goes back to being Warchief like nothing ever happened" as a lame way to end this shitshow, after they had him sit out so Garrosh could have his villain story.

However, it's clear they tried to fix their mess, but in all the wrong ways. People weren't so fond of Pure Shaman Potato Sack Hippy Thrall, and wanted him to actually take responsibility for the Garrosh thing? Well, they gave him his Doomhammer and Doomplate back! They had him fighting in the thick of things, and he kills Garrosh in a totally badass manner! Woo! Except he does so while disavowing his part in causing this mess, when we know he appointed someone who didn't want the job.

That cinematic came across as arrogant. Yes, it's true that Garrosh made his own choices, but so did Thrall. It only furthered the image of Thrall as an irresponsible dick who thinks way too highly of himself. That's why his plot from Legion to now has been to humble him as a character, though that comes with the downside of canonizing that he's been deeply irresponsible and arrogant lately.

So now we have a Thrall who is neither Warchief, World Shaman, or wielder of Doomhammer, or bearer of the Doomplate. We have Thrall the dude who will probably get his Shaman powers back when he comes to terms with his failures. But the path so far has soured people to him.

Vol'jin: A fan favorite but clearly not a dev favorite. His quests clearly didn't have the most interest put into him. The whole MoP plot was really kind of half-assed, so here we go again.

Sylvanas: The writing clearly shifted direction. It's been confirmed that it was only after Teldrassil had been set in stone for some time that the Saurfang idea came in. If I'm right about what I suspect, someone made a plot in which Sylvanas commits genocide, and it took someone else to look over the script way later and realize what was written and that it was too late to fix any of it because most of the development was close to finalized. So they added the Saurfang thing to try to mitigate the damage of a genocide plot they hadn't thought through properly in the first place.

So now we have our "good men doing nothing" plot.

[Syegfryed]

The warchief tittle became a joke after they take away from the orcs and make that obnoxious evil arc with Garrosh because the "team felt" that he should be the thing wow need at the time and now its being used as plot device, cause apparently, they can't focus in a character if he is not the leader of the faction anymore.

the circle of retardation will only end if they put another orc and start from the beginning again, they are prob going for thrall because the horde in theory, would not get a new warchief, just the old one, so there will no memes about it, the numbers would be the same.

Imo, Saurfang should take the tittle and pas the next expansion building up a new young replacement, like Drannosh was supposed to be

[KrakHed]

The warchief tittle became a joke after they take away from the orcs and make that obnoxious evil arc with Garrosh because the "team felt" that he should be the thing wow need at the time and now its being used as plot device, cause apparently, they can't focus in a character if he is not the leader of the faction anymore.

the circle of retardation will only end if they put another orc and start from the beginning again, they are prob going for thrall because the horde in theory, would not get a new warchief, just the old one, so there will no memes about it, the numbers would be the same.

Imo, Saurfang should take the tittle and pas the next expansion building up a new young replacement, like Drannosh was supposed to be

I think they need to start building up a ton of new characters. The Forsaken are probably going to need some too. Ugh. The fucking Forsaken plot still hasn't started yet.

[Super Dickmann]

I think they need to start building up a ton of new characters. The Forsaken are probably going to need some too. Ugh. The fucking Forsaken plot still hasn't started yet.

>He still thinks there's a Forsaken plot in here.
Night elves and Forsaken are just accessories to multiple million dollar fully rendered cinematics about a single orc being sad and about the endless virtues of humanity, just how the entire orcish race and its standing cast was just an accessory to the writers furiously trying to backpedal to WC3 the last time we went through this circus.

[KrakHed]

>He still thinks there's a Forsaken plot in here.
Night elves and Forsaken are just accessories to multiple million dollar fully rendered cinematics about a single orc being sad and about the endless virtues of humanity, just how the entire orcish race and its standing cast was just an accessory to the writers furiously trying to backpedal to WC3 the last time we went through this circus.

You're right about the Night Elves, but Calia still gets hinted at. In both Alliance questing with Derek and from N'zoth, and datamined content too. Also, Anduin has barely existed this expansion either, and I very much doubt he's not going to have any story.

There's going to be a Forsaken story, just a lot later than we expected because Blizzard is bad at pacing. And there'll be a lot of Anduin and Calia involved.

[Super Dickmann]

You're right about the Night Elves, but Calia still gets hinted at. In both Alliance questing with Derek and from N'zoth, and datamined content too. Also, Anduin has barely existed this expansion either, and I very much doubt he's not going to have any story.

There's going to be a Forsaken story, just a lot later than we expected because Blizzard is bad at pacing. And there'll be a lot of Anduin and Calia involved.

Hence why I said that they are there as accessories to big up Anduin and Calia, two human characters and Saurfang, who'll show how well the nu-Forsaken gel with muh honor when he shakes hands with the Bright Lady.

BTS and this entire process is a Forsaken story n the same way that the Burning of Teldrassil was a night elf story. The actual events that these races go through exist only to service characters Blizzard actually care about without getting them dirty and to shoehorn previously ill-fitting elements into the unifaction. Funnily enough, after the Forsaken are Anduinized it'll actually be the night elves who fit the least into the status quo they'll expect us to believe since Blizzard had no idea what they were writing with Teldrassil and how absurd they made reconciliation look in light of it.

For the Forsaken they're are already gone since the novel, the game just hasn't caught up to acknowledging it yet since it doesn't care about them except as questing fodder.

[KrakHed]

Hence why I said that they are there as accessories to big up Anduin and Calia, two human characters and Saurfang, who'll show how well the nu-Forsaken gel with muh honor when he shakes hands with the Bright Lady.

BTS and this entire process is a Forsaken story n the same way that the Burning of Teldrassil was a night elf story. The actual events that these races go through exist only to service their plots and to shoehorn previously ill-fitting elements into the unifaction. Funnily enough, after the Forsaken are Anduinized it'll actually be the night elves who fit the least into the status quo they'll expect us to believe since Blizzard had no idea what they were writing with Teldrassil and how absurd they made reconciliation look in light of.

For the Forsaken they're are already gone since the novel, the game just hasn't caught up to acknowledging yet since it doesn't care about them except as questing fodder.

I still think there's a chance we won't get Bright Lady Calia, but that chance is almost entirely dependent on who Calia's daughter is or what kinds of twists Blizzard likes. It's unlikely to be Taelia, because she's apparently not a secret and Calia could just fucking ask Anduin about her husband if Bolvar was her husband. Because Bolvar is a known war hero and all.

If we get a Tyranny of the Light plot, the "Light has struck a bargain with the enemy of all" to paraphrase N'zoth, Calia would likely turn out like Yrel. A well-intentioned pawn of the Naaru just trying to redeem and heal everyone, but the Forsaken will be upset because "WE ARE OUR SCARS!" so she'll try and get them to accept her peaceful ways through force.

This could then turn out several ways. Someone like Nathanos or something leads the resistance and he somehow becomes more of a heroic figure, or...

We get a cheesy deviant art OC who is Arthas's secret niece, but who didn't know, to be our special chosen one to fight against the Light and the mother she was separated from. If any Forsaken character fits the shitty OC mold, it's Lilian Voss. And unlike Taelia, she's actually Blonde!

[Super Dickmann]

I still think there's a chance we won't get Bright Lady Calia, but that chance is almost entirely dependent on who Calia's daughter is or what kinds of twists Blizzard likes. It's unlikely to be Taelia, because she's apparently not a secret and Calia could just fucking ask Anduin about her husband if Bolvar was her husband. Because Bolvar is a known war hero and all.

If we get a Tyranny of the Light plot, the "Light has struck a bargain with the enemy of all" to paraphrase N'zoth, Calia would likely turn out like Yrel. A well-intentioned pawn of the Naaru just trying to redeem and heal everyone, but the Forsaken will be upset because "WE ARE OUR SCARS!" so she'll try and get them to accept her peaceful ways through force.

This could then turn out several ways. Someone like Nathanos or something leads the resistance and he somehow becomes more of a heroic figure, or...

We get a cheesy deviant art OC who is Arthas's secret niece, but who didn't know, to be our special chosen one to fight against the Light and the mother she was separated from. If any Forsaken character fits the shitty OC mold, it's Lilian Voss. And unlike Taelia, she's actually Blonde!

I am unconvinced in Calia being an antagonist because of the way she and more importantly the Forsaken are written in the book. Sadsacks who just want to be loved and then expire is their new default, Calia, whatever else she may be, happens to be the means by which they reach that desired outcome. Couple that with pages upon pages of how beloved she is and how much she wants to be a good ruler for them as well as being given a new form (do not steal) solely to get in good with them makes me think that it's just a case of N'zoth misrepresenting her. In the same way Anduin saying white lies was bigged up by Il'gynoth and gave people false hope about his character. Where it concerns her daughter, I don't think it's Taelia either since it's mentioned her husband is a commoner, but it'll likely be used as fodder for the nu-Forsaken in either this expansion or the next when she tries to find her, especially since Shadowlands is imminent.

While Voss was an original character (do not steal) back in the day, I do like BFA Voss, even if she might as well be an entirely new character for all she has in common with her previous incarnation. She does however lack the credentials to be speaking anything as regards the Forsaken since even now when she's a part of them it's as much out of conscription as belief. And said belief she expresses is also wrong since we know humanity and the undead are actually one dead elf away from existing in perfect harmony.

[KrakHed]

I am unconvinced in Calia being an antagonist because of the way she and more importantly the Forsaken are written in the book. Sadsacks who just want to be loved and then expire is their new default, Calia, whatever else she may be, happens to be the means by which they reach that desired outcome. Couple that with pages upon pages of how beloved she is and how much she wants to be a good ruler for them as well as being given a new form (do not steal) solely to get in good with them makes me think that it's just a case of N'zoth misrepresenting her. In the same way Anduin saying white lies was bigged up by Il'gynoth and gave people false hope about his character. Where it concerns her daughter, I don't think it's Taelia either since it's mentioned her husband is a commoner, but it'll likely be used as fodder for the nu-Forsaken in either this expansion or the next when she tries to find her, especially since Shadowlands is imminent.

While Voss was an original character (do not steal) back in the day, I do like BFA Voss, even if she might as well be an entirely new character for all she has in common with her previous incarnation. She does however lack the credentials to be speaking anything as regards the Forsaken since even now when she's a part of them it's as much out of conscription as belief. And said belief she expresses is also wrong since we know humanity and the undead are actually one dead elf away from existing in perfect harmony.

People didn't expect the Xe'ra thing either. I don't know how popular the "Tyranny of the Light" plot is in Blizz, and that's basically the deciding matter for the plot direction we'll get. If that's something they're taking seriously, Calia will probably be bad with her "scar healing" for taking away what makes the Forsaken who they are. Remember, Yrel just wants peace and healing. She doesn't say anything malicious or cruel. It's just that she doesn't allow people to refuse her help.

I think Blizzard's storytelling is dreadfully slow and chaotic, so it's hard to tell what was abandoned or when they intend to get around to following up a story. As I said, Calia isn't even ingame yet, and it's been a fucking year. A fucking year before there was any real plot followup on what they set up in their prequel book. Who knows? There might even be a planned Night Elf story and Darkshore was just a bandaid to appease people til next year, when they intend to finally address it.

And yes, Voss has shaped up better. I expect her to be involved in whatever happens when the story finally gets to focusing on the Forsaken.

[Super Dickmann]

People didn't expect the Xe'ra thing either. I don't know how popular the "Tyranny of the Light" plot is in Blizz, and that's basically the deciding matter for the plot direction we'll get. If that's something they're taking seriously, Calia will probably be bad with her "scar healing" for taking away what makes the Forsaken who they are. Remember, Yrel just wants peace and healing. She doesn't say anything malicious or cruel. It's just that she doesn't allow people to refuse her help.

I think Blizzard's storytelling is dreadfully slow and chaotic, so it's hard to tell what was abandoned or when they intend to get around to following up a story. As I said, Calia isn't even ingame yet, and it's been a fucking year. A fucking year before there was any real plot followup on what they set up in their prequel book. Who knows? There might even be a planned Night Elf story and Darkshore was just a bandaid to appease people til next year, when they intend to finally address it.

And yes, Voss has shaped up better. I expect her to be involved in whatever happens when the story finally gets to focusing on the Forsaken.

They're at least leaning into making the void more of a force like the others seriously. They pretty much have to because of their introduction of velves and things like the Alleria story and our less than adversarial interactions with N'zoth and the knaifu mean it's something the writing staff enjoy. This by default requires them to worsen the Light so as to somehow make the ultimate force of entropy and destruction look at least remotely relatable by comparison. I just don't believe that Calia is a vector of this, not when the same novel had everyone easily overcoming their misgivings about the undead, Light-infused people included.

In my opinion Darkshore largely exists as a band-aid, since this isn't the only story they have to follow up on regarding Forsaken. There's also Delaryn who has "defects back to the Alliance after proving Sylvanas wrong about hope" written all over her. This is especially evident in the shift in characterization for Tyrande in between A Good War, where she's a good little cohort to the God-King and their argument in 8.1 which they had to backtrack on and make clear wasn't very serious. Consider as well the scarcity of new models there, how she was apparently switched to be there whe Maiev was their OG choice and the cheapness of the cinematic. The only thing that makes me unconvinced of this is that I have no idea how long it takes them to make something like Terror of Darkshore these days.

[Alex86el]

Does this title even mean anything significant anymore ?

• Thrall was once a cool character and then they had to use him in such a cringy way people got sick of him.

• In comes Garrosh, who had a decent story and saw growth as a character in the Wotlk campaign as well as Cataclysm.Does not take long until Blizzard makes him the evil guy then proceeds to axe him.

• Vol'jin one of the original characters from "back in the day" gets to have the title and does pretty much nothing.Gets killed so Blizzard has a reason to put Sylvanas.

• Finally, Sylvanas gets to be warchief.As expected her story takes a turn for the worst,with Blizzard encouraging members of the Horde faction to hate on this character that has been in the game since forever.Banished ? Killed ? Who knows...

• Now,they are teasing Thrall again with the warchief title.

So,what does this title even mean anymore ? Because the way i see it,if you get the Warchief title it guarantees you the following : the character is killed / turned evil or story forever ruined.

Please stay away from Lor'themar.

Well said.

Baine is the exception to this rule.
he didnt have to become warchief to get (almost) ruined.
he is furry gandhi.

Still angry about Garrosh going full hitler.
Not as much as Varian and Voljin dying of course.

[mickybrighteyes]

Well said.

Baine is the exception to this rule.
he didnt have to become warchief to get (almost) ruined.
he is fury gandhi.

Still angry about Garrosh going full hitler.
Not as much as Varian and Voljin dying of course.

no... Civ series has Fury Gandhi. Nuking the ever loving shit out of everyone cause of that lowered aggression bug (his nation looping to max aggression when you universally lower everyone by more than his nation possessed)

oh wait you mean furry gandhi.

[KrakHed]

They're at least leaning into making the void more of a force like the others seriously. They pretty much have to because of their introduction of velves and things like the Alleria story and our less than adversarial interactions with N'zoth and the knaifu mean it's something the writing staff enjoy. This by default requires them to worsen the Light so as to somehow make the ultimate force of entropy and destruction look at least remotely relatable by comparison. I just don't believe that Calia is a vector of this, not when the same novel had everyone easily overcoming their misgivings about the undead, Light-infused people included.

In my opinion Darkshore largely exists as a band-aid, since this isn't the only story they have to follow up on regarding Forsaken. There's also Delaryn who has "defects back to the Alliance after proving Sylvanas wrong about hope" written all over her. This is especially evident in the shift in characterization for Tyrande in between A Good War, where she's a good little cohort to the God-King and their argument in 8.1 which they had to backtrack on and make clear wasn't very serious. Consider as well the scarcity of new models there, how she was apparently switched to be there whe Maiev was their OG choice and the cheapness of the cinematic. The only thing that makes me unconvinced of this is that I have no idea how long it takes them to make something like Terror of Darkshore these days.

Well, there's also the matter that the Forsaken base is all Goblin architecture. There is a datamined Forsaken Archway, though. Completely unused. So, I very much think Darkshore was a rush job.

As for Calia, I think she might be a vector for it. Saa'ra's lines have lines if you think about them, but any distant plot of Blizzard's is subject to change. Especially considering their writing style. I don't think Blizzard was ever intending to immediately get around to telling the Forsaken or Nelf plot. Most content is based in new zones, not old ones. The Saurfang escape quest is relatively short and lame compared to Dazar'alor buildup, and such.

So, as stupid as it sounds, the Forsaken shit might be set up for next expansion. And it may have always been that way. Zuldazar, Kul Tiras, Nazjatar, and probably Ny'alotha were always going to have the development priority for this expansion.

Anyhow, I have hope for Voss. She was a total Donut Steal in the beginning, but I thought it was funny. Not to mention, she's been in literally every expansion since her inception, so someone at Blizz loves her.

[Fistfighter]

They should have give the title right to Sylvanas after Garrosh was done.
Vol'Jin's warchief story was ....non-existent and purely useless.