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  1. #641
    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    You might want to ease back. I’m worried you are going to tear something with all that stretching.
    Buddy, maybe pay more attention next time. I never said Classic WoW is hard. I am just saying current WoW is not hard either. Anything is trivial if you know what you should be doing. Dark souls is trivial, if you know, how to avoid attacks and learn patterns. We all got it. So take your smart talk somewhere else

  2. #642
    after playing on the beta i would say that they are about the same as Pservers TBH tanking as a warrior is hard but you get used to it haha

  3. #643
    I did SM Library on the Beta earlier and it was quite challenging. Mobs were between 3-6 Levels higher than us, so that made it kinda challenging.

  4. #644
    Titan Charge me Doctor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dergiab View Post
    I'm sure you pulled 3 packs at a time and just aoed them down, while noone took any damage and healer had full mana constantly.
    Pulling one-by-one and killing stuff ST while your healer sits at 10% mana is not definition of "hard", it's just players being crap. If your dungeon tank knows what he is doing to at least some degree (like spreading sunders instead of stacking it to 5 on one target) all dungeons are quite easy
    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Dictionary
    Russians are a nation inhabiting territory of Russia an ex-USSR countries. Russians enjoy drinking vodka and listening to the bears playing button-accordions. Russians are open- and warm- hearted. They are ready to share their last prianik (russian sweet cookie) with guests, in case lasts encounter that somewhere. Though, it's almost unreal, 'cos russians usually hide their stuff well.

  5. #645
    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    Pulling one-by-one and killing stuff ST while your healer sits at 10% mana is not definition of "hard", it's just players being crap. If your dungeon tank knows what he is doing to at least some degree (like spreading sunders instead of stacking it to 5 on one target) all dungeons are quite easy
    So here is the question.. What is hard? Does hard game actually exists? Because you could apply this logic everywhere "If you know what you are doing, it's easy"

  6. #646
    The Lightbringer Lollis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WowClassic View Post
    No one cares about artificial difficulty Mythic+ where you have to mad rush everything because of preset timers and where finding a group as a DPS is like finding water in the desert. All my experiences of Mythic plus (I've done up to +10) have just been AoE rush fests where no one speaks unless something goes wrong, not enjoyable at all and there is never a moment to take a breather.

    And in any case this is not a good excuse for all other content in the world being braindead easy.
    "No one cares about artificial difficulty"

    Being oom in 3 casts and finishing a mob off with 2 hits with my 3sec swing time staff is compelling and difficult content
    Speciation Is Gradual

  7. #647
    Quote Originally Posted by Lollis View Post
    Being oom in 3 casts
    Looks like someone never played vanilla yet continues to shitpost about how bad it is.



    Back to the retail forums, seething BFA kiddie.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tommi View Post
    LFR saved raiding
    Quote Originally Posted by Haekke View Post
    LFR is not really easy. I would say it's a lot harder thant Mythic Dungeons
    get_a_load_of_this_guy_cam.jpg

  8. #648
    The Lightbringer Lollis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anon5123 View Post
    Looks like someone never played vanilla yet continues to shitpost about how bad it is.



    Back to the retail forums, seething BFA kiddie.
    I've been playing since 1.7 boyo
    Speciation Is Gradual

  9. #649
    Titan Charge me Doctor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManiaCCC View Post
    So here is the question.. What is hard? Does hard game actually exists? Because you could apply this logic everywhere "If you know what you are doing, it's easy"
    the "hard" game is either when you don't know yet what you have to do (aka, learning curve), or it's hard to execute what you have to do (aka, difficulty). Vanilla wow never had steep learning curve (besides tanking), and execution part was also quite easy. The only difficult part of vanilla was lack of information (like lack of cast bars to time your interrupt while interrupts sit on GCD), and stuff that you had to learn via trial and error now widely available on the internet (and most of these skills were acquired when you played different versions of WoW or in different games).

    There are games that will fuck you over even if you 100% know what you have to do (example one: doing a dodge on your wardancer and rolling 1 two times; example two: your only chance to stop enemy from landing a touchdown is to throw a halfling on top of his ball carrier, it's 100% legit and calculated move, you still have to roll a lot of dice to make this happen). WoW is not this kind of a game, so when you 100% know what you are doing you'll always "win", and since there is not much to "do" and "know" at all, "losing" is quite "hard" (aka, handwaving your knowledge and doing risky shit). Adding more players into calculation makes things worse. , but not to unmanageable degree.
    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Dictionary
    Russians are a nation inhabiting territory of Russia an ex-USSR countries. Russians enjoy drinking vodka and listening to the bears playing button-accordions. Russians are open- and warm- hearted. They are ready to share their last prianik (russian sweet cookie) with guests, in case lasts encounter that somewhere. Though, it's almost unreal, 'cos russians usually hide their stuff well.

  10. #650
    Quote Originally Posted by hardtofin View Post
    What do you guys think about this?

    I played vanilla and definitely remember them being as hard if not harder than the levelling. The guys in the beta are reporting levelling being MUCH hard than private servers but dungeons being WAY easier. They are talking about the possibility there was a stealth nerf to dungeons in 1.12

    I hope this wasn't the case as easy dungeons will really suck in classic imo, what do you guys reckon?
    Dude i played a lot of vanilla as a "melee mage" stacking spirit and agi for some stupid reason. Dungeons were so fucking easy even i could complete all of them.

  11. #651
    Legendary! MasterHamster's Avatar
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    "Classic dungeons were never hard, people were just undergeared, inexperienced, bad at the game, bad connection, bad everything"
    I suppose the only difference then is that these players would still obliterate every dungeon up to maxlevel on Retail/Live, while they are going to wipe a lot in Classic dungeons.

    Because Classic dungeons weren't designed to be cleared in 15-20 minutes by people who refuse to communicate.

    Things you'll also see in Classic dungeons:
    Tank getting crushed if he pulls another elite pack
    Healer going OOM because healing spells are freaking expensive,
    Severe lack of CC/AoE
    Many accidental pulls because of a much higher aggro-range (oh and remember patrols?)

    It's not like people claim classic dungeons are essentially high m+ that requires perfect play, but mistakes and overconfidence are very often punished in Classic dungeons. You'll probably wipe as many times in your first 1-2 runs of DM than you've ever wiped in any dungeon while leveling 1-110.

    People seem to enjoy pretending that when people lack infinite mana regen, and several different things in their toolkit (until a later/higher level anyway) then that somehow doesn't contribute to overall difficulty. In the mind of the "there's no difference in difficulty" poster, there is no other measure of difficulty other than execution. And then they are "right", classic dungeon trash and bosses are mechanically simple. That won't change the fact that your healer is going to go OOM if there's an accidental pull of hard-hitting elites.

    On live you don't even need a healer.
    Last edited by MasterHamster; 2019-05-26 at 05:21 PM.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    The biggest challenge of WoW is designing for the many different audiences that play the game.
    Yeah, you're trying to satisfy players who doesn't even enjoy playing RPGs, and thus you're alienating those who do.

  12. #652
    Field Marshal BrillGates's Avatar
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    This has probably already been said but:

    Beta goes to level 30, i don't think the game was supposed to be hard at that level.
    But then again, Classic was never hard. It's challenging.

  13. #653
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrillGates View Post
    This has probably already been said but:

    Beta goes to level 30, i don't think the game was supposed to be hard at that level.
    But then again, Classic was never hard. It's challenging.
    Weren't people claiming that levelling was a major part of the vanilla game? So what, those 30 levels don't count all of a sudden? Surely that incredible challenge that should have devoured 'retailers' whole must have already been present by then.

  14. #654
    The Lightbringer Lollis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrillGates View Post
    This has probably already been said but:

    Beta goes to level 30, i don't think the game was supposed to be hard at that level.
    But then again, Classic was never hard. It's challenging.
    Quote Originally Posted by KaPe View Post
    Weren't people claiming that levelling was a major part of the vanilla game? So what, those 30 levels don't count all of a sudden? Surely that incredible challenge that should have devoured 'retailers' whole must have already been present by then.
    Vanilla wasn't difficult but it is very true that the early levels are especially easy.

    Levelling starts to get "harder" later on, but there are also a couple of brackets in particular that are a pain because of quest distribution and stuff like that.
    The brackets I remember as being annoying were 34-40, 44-48, 50-56. The main reasons for this are quest and xp distribution which push you around the world far too much (because they often wouldn't give enough xp to level and unlock other quests in the zone), and the general state of some of the dungeons which could be a bit meh and have level brackets which can mean you just aren't going to clear them in one run (because you would hit walls due to entry requirement being too low while the end stuff could be much higher level than they should be).
    Speciation Is Gradual

  15. #655
    Titan Charge me Doctor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KaPe View Post
    Weren't people claiming that levelling was a major part of the vanilla game? So what, those 30 levels don't count all of a sudden? Surely that incredible challenge that should have devoured 'retailers' whole must have already been present by then.
    There is no "wall" that you meet during leveling that stops you from progressing, you always progress regardless of what you do. You won't die and get rolled back to beginning of your level, you won't fail a quest and will have to do it all over (outside of... like... 5 escort and timed quests). Leveling is hardly a challenge. It's still enjoyable, because it has proper pacing compared to retail, where game expanded so much that it basically invalidates all low-level content. Don't forget that vanilla was designed to be wanted by players who didn't like old MMORPG (more solo content, less punishment for failures, more rewards), there is literally no challenge that should've devoured anyone.

    On a second thought, the only thing that could "devour" anyone is simple boredom since you may feel like you are wasting your time with it, which is the case with literally any other game.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Lollis View Post
    The main reasons for this are quest and xp distribution which push you around the world far too much (because they often wouldn't give enough xp to level and unlock other quests in the zone), and the general state of some of the dungeons which could be a bit meh and have level brackets which can mean you just aren't going to clear them in one run (because you would hit walls due to entry requirement being too low while the end stuff could be much higher level than they should be).
    Fun thing i've noticed in packed starting locations during stress test: LOTS of players just sit around and camp quest mobs instead of murderhoboing everything in sight. That pesky gnome warlock who started yelling at me for me not wanting to join his group ended up like 2 levels behind me when i've met him on my way out from starting location to kharanos.
    It really feels like 180 from vanilla, where most people who came from different MMOs mostly grinded mobs while doing quests, now people do quests avoiding killing "excess" mobs because it's "not efficient" and because they "don't need these mobs for quests".
    Last edited by Charge me Doctor; 2019-05-26 at 06:27 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Dictionary
    Russians are a nation inhabiting territory of Russia an ex-USSR countries. Russians enjoy drinking vodka and listening to the bears playing button-accordions. Russians are open- and warm- hearted. They are ready to share their last prianik (russian sweet cookie) with guests, in case lasts encounter that somewhere. Though, it's almost unreal, 'cos russians usually hide their stuff well.

  16. #656
    My memory of Vanilla dungeons wasn't difficulty but just.... inexperienced design teams (which isn't surprising given the big MMO before then had been everquest). Dungeons tended to... ramble. Original Sunken Temple was a labyrinth. And not in a good way. It was just.... confusing. The later ones (Undercity etc) were HUGE and a lot of the time you'd have the group give up before the end because someone finally called it quits and left to go to dinner or bed because they had work the next morning.

    The actual mobs/bosses were pretty basic... there were just a lot of them.

    I'd probably say there were a few moments in wow history when dungeons felt really harsh. Late BC (heroic hellfire with those mob packed tunnels), Early heroic wrath (still great tho) and early Cata dungeons which were trying to encourage people to CC again (and a new breed of player was ignoring the devs on this one ^^).

    Oh and +15 mythics atm.

  17. #657
    Quote Originally Posted by Protean View Post
    Dude i played a lot of vanilla as a "melee mage" stacking spirit and agi for some stupid reason. Dungeons were so fucking easy even i could complete all of them.
    Yet they are still harder than dungeons on retail so we are good.

  18. #658
    Elemental Lord clevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Even with limited tool kits, a lot of people understand core concepts better now than they did then.

    LoS 15 years ago? Forget about it.
    Kiting 15 years ago? Forget about it.
    Interrupts and stuns? Well, that's still kinda mixed even after 15 years, lol.

    All of the Vanilla dungeons are pretty easy if you don't over pull and either kite or use LoS to your advantage if you find yourself in a terrible spot. When these things happened when I played, people just fell over like flies and panic ensued.
    Ahhahhahah. No.

    You all act like LoS etc is some advanced technique that takes some genius to understand or months to master. It's not. Nor are all of you better than people 15 years ago. That's just self-stroking bullshit - people aren't smarter or faster or better today than then, you just want to think you are.

  19. #659
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias01 View Post
    Yet they are still harder than dungeons on retail so we are good.
    Only because retail doesn't allow you to equip gear without your main stats.

    But classic was still easier. A bunch of blundering idiots still made it through.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    Ahhahhahah. No.

    You all act like LoS etc is some advanced technique that takes some genius to understand or months to master. It's not. Nor are all of you better than people 15 years ago. That's just self-stroking bullshit - people aren't smarter or faster or better today than then, you just want to think you are.
    People today aren't smarter than people 200 years ago, we just have calculators to do extremely advanced math for us, encyclopedias, better nourishment during our formative years and a literal decade of intensive schooling unheard of 200 years ago, even by the elite of society.

    People today aren't smarter, they just want to think they are.

  20. #660
    Brewmaster taishar68's Avatar
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    So much to comment on, I know I won't remember everything, but here are a few key points I wanted to discuss:

    What is the understood meaning of hard? Because if vanilla dungeons weren't harder than today's heroics, then today's heroics must be on a different level of easy than...breathing. Since Cata, I cannot recall more than a handful of normal or heroic dungeons that did not AoE almost all trash, or had boss mechanics so difficult as to cause multiple wipes...and I'm saying this as someone who went into said dungeons knowing basically nothing about the fights themselves. I stopped worrying about dungeon mechanics ages ago.

    Now, if the litmus test of difficulty is today's mythics..well, I can't speak to them having not done any past M0, but I will assume they are as difficult as advertised. Mythic 0 is no different than heroic in terms of execution; tank pulls, we AoE, kill boss while not standing in anything.

    Getting back to vanilla dungeons, I have always remembered them as a part of the game that required some care, and that dungeons since LK (with a few exceptions), you could be a lot more careless. How that will be in practice, we'll have to wait and see.

    What I am going to use as a way to gauge the difficulty? Jintha'alor. Hard outdoor area with tons of elites, lots of patrols. If I go there with a couple of other players and we faceroll it, assuming we all have mostly green gear with some blues, it will feel off. Jintha took a while to do, care was needed when pulling, and without a healer, a death or three is not uncommon. This is how I will gauge because I have a strong memory of it. ymmv.

    The argument of people wearing the wrong gear (rogues with int., etc.), only goes so far; by the time I started doing Zul Farrak, you rarely saw oddball stats like that anymore. It'll be even less so this time around.

    Lastly...you know, everyone plays the game a little differently. If you base everything around speed and efficiency, you forget there is a certain charm in doing a dungeon where, while you might wipe a time or two, you have fun as well by hanging out with cool people. And there is nothing wrong with being fast and efficient, and if you are that type of player, you have a different memory and outlook than others, because we all see things differently.
    If you can't be in athletics, be an athletic supporter.

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