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  1. #381
    Quote Originally Posted by Flurryfang View Post
    I once beat Baron Rivendare as a rogue by staying out of his dmg aura and using throw. Trust me, people were just dumb back then, not knowing what to do to increase their dps. The game was tuned for people being idiots at most lvls, so its understandable that veteran players are knocking dungeons all over.
    Was that when rogues throw ability didnt have a cooldown and could just be spammed? Rogues could do equal or better dps than hunters cause of it :P

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    Quote Originally Posted by zorkuus View Post
    You're contradicting your previous point. Casual doesn't mean bad player... and we agree on that. So how can vanilla feel as challenging to these players as it did back in the days when they were more than just casuals (they were noobs)?
    Because "skill" is static. You never become a better player other than aquiring more knowledge or experience. And no, experience in BFA is not equal to experience in Classic.

  2. #382
    Legendary! Flurryfang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimreaper View Post
    Was that when rogues throw ability didnt have a cooldown and could just be spammed? Rogues could do equal or better dps than hunters cause of it :P

    - - - Updated - - -



    Because "skill" is static. You never become a better player other than aquiring more knowledge or experience. And no, experience in BFA is not equal to experience in Classic.
    It was when it did lower dmg than wanding xD It was slow, every 1½ sec throwing for low dmg


    Lets just say, that i did not do it because it did more dmg than doing melee abilities. I thought the dmg aura would kill me and that Rivendare was just a non-melee boss ><
    May the lore be great and the stories interesting. A game without a story, is a game without a soul. Value the lore and it will reward you with fun!

  3. #383
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimreaper View Post
    Because "skill" is static. You never become a better player other than aquiring more knowledge or experience.
    Duh... one gains skill through experience (so it's not static). I don't know where you're trying to go with this.

  4. #384
    Quote Originally Posted by hardtofin View Post
    What do you guys think about this?

    I played vanilla and definitely remember them being as hard if not harder than the levelling. The guys in the beta are reporting levelling being MUCH hard than private servers but dungeons being WAY easier. They are talking about the possibility there was a stealth nerf to dungeons in 1.12

    I hope this wasn't the case as easy dungeons will really suck in classic imo, what do you guys reckon?
    Which dungeons, because I remember pretty vividly tanking on my bear wearing shitty quest gear 90% of which did nothing for my mitigation. Nothing besides endgame wow was hard, and even then it was partially due to having to find the amount of people with time to run it.

  5. #385
    Quote Originally Posted by Scottyjscizzle View Post
    Which dungeons, because I remember pretty vividly tanking on my bear wearing shitty quest gear 90% of which did nothing for my mitigation. Nothing besides endgame wow was hard, and even then it was partially due to having to find the amount of people with time to run it.
    I was stubbornly trying to do the whole jack of all trades thing with my druid in vanilla, even though it didn't work at all like I wanted it to. Yet I was still able to tank just fine in dungeons. People were often complimenting me even though I kinda sucked. I guess they were just happy to find a tank.

  6. #386
    Quote Originally Posted by zorkuus View Post
    Duh... one gains skill through experience (so it's not static). I don't know where you're trying to go with this.
    No, thats performance. Skill is the rate are wich you learn, your reaction times and your perception.

  7. #387
    The Patient saidolol's Avatar
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    Vanilla was never hard. It only took time.
    HOLLA FOR DA TOP DOLLA

  8. #388
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimreaper View Post
    No, thats performance. Skill is the rate are wich you learn and your reaction times.
    I hate to break it to you but you can improve those aswell through experience, albeit not as fast maybe. So it's not static.

  9. #389
    Legendary! MasterHamster's Avatar
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    People can't even begin to agree what "difficulty" means anymore. If you talk about how pulling two mobs in classic meant you risked death, it's "not mechanically hard so not hard", if you die because you had no potion that isn't difficulty because anyone can have a potion ready, if you run out of mana that's not difficulty because you could have waited for 100% mana after every pull, if you pull additional mobs (because mobs are more densely packed) that's not difficulty but you not being careful and should've just approached from a different angle. Running out of resources isn't any result of difficulty (mobs taking 15-25 seconds to die and dealing quite a lot of damage) because you can theoretically make sure to be 100% for every single mob pull.

    In short, if you break down how people on forums treat "difficulty" in this game, you realize that absolutely nothing is difficult anywhere. Avoiding a 1 second instant death mechanic isn't hard, you just have to press strafe within .9 seconds, work on your reaction time scrub. Taking 5%+ of your maximum health every hit by a mob as you literally have no stuns or ways to self-heal isn't difficult, just tedious (as if that's less difficult than mobs that barely damage you at all)

    So what is difficulty? Is nothing allowed to be regarded as difficult if it's not difficulty in execution? Is that the only thing that can be regarded as difficult in RPGs, and never pure numbers? Your lowbie tank who blocks 12 damage getting crushed for 1/4 of his healthpool isn't difficult because the healer can top him off (but the mana is bleeding out quickly) isn't any sort of difficulty? How can balancing numbers, characters generally not having many tools for escaping or controlling mobs, interrupts etc, mob spells dealing a lot of damage not be regarded as difficulty? I mean if you start arguing this way, no RPG has ever been difficult, because theoretically playing perfectly will produce a smooth experience (albeit very slow and calculated).

    And yet people will most likely experience more wipes in a typical Deadmines or SFK run, than they've experienced in any non-mythic dungeon since BFA was released.
    Mistakes in classic dungeons mean wipes, in retail it's a minor annoyance with zero consequences.
    Leveling or doing dungeons on Live feels like you are stuck in godmode, and for all intents and purposes you are. You have to play purposefully awful in order to die on Live.

    In contrast, no one has proper AoE in DM, you can run with a level 19 paladin who has no heal other than a pretty weak 3 sec cast Holy Light, and a 1h LoH. Mobs have fleeing-mechanics and barely any in the group can slow or stun them.

    People can repeat tedious != difficult and similar, they will still experience far more deaths in Classic than they've done in retail for years. Then it doesn't matter that it isn't strictly speaking mechanically hard, that high level mob with a 20 yard aggro range is still going to whoop your ass, and throw a 8 second Net effect on you for good measure.


    Well, what I can at least be certain of, is that the tone will change quite drastically when all those who hasn't experienced it will realize just how much of a beating they're taking from an equal-level mob. It's fascinating how much the game dynamic changes when you lose godmode.
    Last edited by MasterHamster; 2019-05-20 at 09:47 PM.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    The biggest challenge of WoW is designing for the many different audiences that play the game.
    Yeah, you're trying to satisfy players who doesn't even enjoy playing RPGs, and thus you're alienating those who do.

  10. #390
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    (it won't be so simple, but let suppose that it happens) and there's nothing wrong with that, because:
    but this all was about essence of comparison and in this case it's necessary to compare LFR (that is the easiest level of content obtaining) with... which one? but Classics didn't have other levels so...

    ps. You may like it or not, it can agree with your attempts at argumentation or not, but this is how it is in fact.
    You literally compare Classic progress with todays lfr?
    If you wanna compare progress difficulty compare Classic progress to Mythic progress. That is the progress of nowadays not LFR. You literally compare two different aspects of the game and call Classic harder? Wow.
    Also what do you mean that progress never ends? Killing the Last boss in mythic is the end. It doesnt get clearer than this.
    What is the hardest raid difficulty you done btw? I'm interested in your actual exp, you seem to think you're too good in theoriticals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimreaper View Post
    Having multiple difficulties doesnt add content, it just makes it more accessible for bad players.

    The difficulty of the content is not measured by the difficulty of maintaining your output alone.

    I can name litteral 1button specs from vanilla that are harder to execute than any and all specs in BFA.

    Having multiple gear requirements for all of your raiders does add difficulty, unless you are playing with bots.

    The numbers of abilities are irrelevant when none of them are important.


    Ofcourse it will be. Because theres people whom have cleared it 20+ times on fresh servers. However for half-decent semi-casual players whom havent seen the place before, it's going to be exactly like back in the days.
    1) Unless you start by doing mythic straight and never do heroics/anything lower then Yes. But even mythic raiders clear heroic so you're wrong. Content is whatever you are willing to engage with. Hell ppl even do LFR for mounts.

    2) what? You can't argue this. Keeping up rotation and watching procs are infinitely more complex than spamming 1 spell. I see you try to twist this statement to your advantage but no, as a dps maintaining your output is your sole focus while doing mechanics.

    3) Do it. And explain how is one button harder than more than one.

    4) It does not. It's called gating. It doesn't increases the difficulty of the encounters. It's a simple entry fee.

    5) How are none important? What difficulty do you play with? Try not interrupting adds on the first BoD boss on mythic. Or standing in hammers. Or stacking boss too high. Tell me whats not important. And this is a free farm boss. Dont get me stated on Grong.

    5) Half decent semmi casual player are still progressing in BoD norm/hc. This is not a metric. Ofc people who wont even be lv60 till november wont clear MC fast. They are not the focus here.

  11. #391
    Quote Originally Posted by saidolol View Post
    Vanilla was never hard. It only took time.
    I started a DM group last night at 2330 PM. It didn't finish until 0130. It was great. Really enjoyed it. Got a great mace and pants. Rewarding even.

    Logged onto retail. Did my dailies. 45 minutes. Felt like a chore.

  12. #392
    Quote Originally Posted by MasterHamster View Post
    Mistakes in classic dungeons mean wipes, in retail it's a minor annoyance with zero consequences.
    Leveling or doing dungeons on Live feels like you are stuck in godmode, and for all intents and purposes you are. You have to play purposefully awful in order to die on Live.
    Have you even done any actual dungeon content on live to be making claims like this? Proper mythic+ is far far beyond anything in classic or TBC or whatever (and is of course for a slightly different audience than introductory raiders doing kara attunement and related stuff) so I'll leave that out of the discussion, but if you queued for like heroic Shrine on launch you'd certainly see people dying to runebearer etc. I very much doubt you've done relevant dungeon content on live; leveling dungeons are not the focus currently - endgame dungeons are and in those you certainly have to play properly when doing a dungeon of your gear level.
    Last edited by Farah; 2019-05-20 at 10:39 PM.

  13. #393
    Quote Originally Posted by Deuse View Post
    Pfft I remember tanking Deadmines at level 18 on my Arms Warrior with a 2 hander and without having learned Defensive stance. That's how bad I was and we still never wiped. They just took forever but were not necessarily difficult, except for the ones that ramped up the level of the enemies throughout like BRD.
    You sound like a friend of mine I leveled with. Wanted to be a 2h Warrior, and also tanked for our group. Didn't want to be a standard tank, so never bought ANY skills in the Protection tree. No Sunder Armor, no Defensive Stance, not even sure he had Taunt. His idea of tanking was doing more damage. We made up to and through Gnomergan with this strategy before I just out leveled him as a Priest and ran with others. :P

  14. #394
    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    What grinds my gear the most is this "you couldn't pull 2 mobs and not die!" argument. Off course you could, but why would you want to do that? It's not like you are going to kill them any faster this way. Now if i play a mage i will pull giant trains of mobs just because i have so much cleave to take them down fast, pulling them one by one would be akin to trying to pull giant trains of mobs on classic - it's not effective way of doing things. When i leveled rogue on classic i definitely pulled bunch of mobs because i had blade fury and evasion (and when i accumulated enough gear to DPS them even faster i could easily pull trains of mobs with just health potions)
    It definitely depended on class, level, spec, gear, and what color/type mob you were dealing with. Fresh out of Northshire Abbey if you decided to go to the Fargodeep mines and pull a bunch of Kobolds, many were mages, and players had no abilities or gear you were mostly dead. Level 40ish or what ever the early Blasted Lands quests were, and you had plenty of questing, dungeon, crafted gear, a decent helping of abilities, you could easily survive a decent mob of enemies.

  15. #395
    Quote Originally Posted by Krekko View Post
    They were never hard, just time consuming and requiring patience, sometimes confusing.

    Vanilla was never truly "hard", you just had so many roadblocks (many of which we are now better at handling/have better ideas of), that it seemed hard. It was an illusion.

    IMO TBC Heroics were the "hard" dungeons and even then it was easy, just once again tedious and time consuming. Same thing with the Cata heroics, people slammed how hard they were, people just didn't want to wait for healers to get mana.
    This was exactly what I was leaning towards as well. Classic Dungeons weren't necessarily challenging just tedious and often confusing due to their sizes and multiple winding corridors. Maybe some CC is needed in case of large pulls but in TBC Heroics that was standard practice each pull. Classic dungeon runs themselves weren't difficult. It was forming said groups, getting to the dungeon location and navigating it that was the challenge. Working with 4 other people to take down the mobs was actually the easiest part.
    "They will come for us now, all of them" "Let them come, Frostmourne The Banshee Queen hungers."

  16. #396
    TBC dungeons were difficult. Vanilla dungeons were not. There were two things that made vanilla dungeons difficult. One, actually making the group. Two, being grouped with people that didn't know how to play. If you didn't have to deal with those two things, you'd soar through them. As of right now, most everyone knows how to play and everyone is looking for a group. There goes the two difficulties of vanilla dungeons.

  17. #397
    Blademaster Lexia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    Classic was tideous, not hard.
    Exactly. Nothing about Classic was hard.
    Tauren warriors stand between their allies and death.
    Gnomes keep death from walking that far.

  18. #398
    Quote Originally Posted by hardtofin View Post
    Everyone in the beta reporting that dungeons are REALLY easy
    Lol of course.

    People were still learning to play back in those days. I remember playing a Warrior tank for my first ever dungeon in BFD, and the funny part was that I had zero idea what a tank was or what I was supposed to do. I'm sure not everyone was as bad as I was to start, but point being, everyone jumping into Classic likely has a lot of experience behind them today.

  19. #399
    Quote Originally Posted by maomoa View Post
    I started a DM group last night at 2330 PM. It didn't finish until 0130. It was great. Really enjoyed it. Got a great mace and pants. Rewarding even.

    Logged onto retail. Did my dailies. 45 minutes. Felt like a chore.
    You just compared apples with oranges, but alright.

  20. #400
    My overriding memory of vanilla was not knowing how to effectively move and kite with my mouse until I was forced to do it for the Winterspring demon part of the Rhok'delar quest. And that was after I had been the person doing the chain-pulling in MC for quite a while.

    So...I'll just add another: There was nothing "hard" about vanilla. Players were just inexperienced/bad at the game.

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