"Minmax" is not black and white, it's a spectrum.

[Prozach]

You are assuming everyone agrees with your definition of "best".

I don't.

This is 15 year old content.

"Best" for me is taking my son and daughter, who are now 19 and 21 into see the raids with me, no matter what class they decide to play.
"Best" is finding a group of similar minded folks, that don't exclude people from raiding because their character isn't min/maxed.
"Best" is having fun with new people watching them learn how to raid.
"Best" are those who show up on time to raids.
"Best" are those who make a commitment to a raiding schedule.

I would pick these people, and whatever class they want to play, over some "go-go-go" try-hards every time.

In this context "best" is an indisputable fact. It's 2+2=4. Your IDEAL can be any of those things but maxing is doing everything possible to optimize performance. Everything. This seems totally lost on the OP and most of the people replying.

- - - Updated - - -

Have you seen how badly the content gets crushed on private servers? 30 minute Molten Core runs. Killing Loatheb a minute ahead of soft enrage.

You really really really don't need to bring good specs and max consumables to win. And if you do, you'll complete the content instantly and be bored.

You mean the private servers where they had to basically guess how to assign boss attributes? Comparing vanilla to private servers is daft. And as for this:

30 minute Molten Core runs

Complete and total BS. You can't even run directly from boss to boss non-stop in less than 20. Let alone clear all trash and do every boss fight in 30. Do you really expect to be taken seriously when you post dumbass shit like that?

[Shaqthefat]

Complete and total BS. You can't even run directly from boss to boss non-stop in less than 20. Let alone clear all trash and do every boss fight in 30. Do you really expect to be taken seriously when you post dumbass shit like that?

It is something done on private servers.

<snipped>
Don't post videos from illegal servers.

[Prozach]

It is something done on private servers.

Full group of fury warriors and rogues, all GM gear, obviously not operating on 1.12, who knows how the server was custom'ed, etc. I think the most hilarious thing about that video is that anyone would think that's how classic is going to work. Or without the instant 60's and auto-legendaries.

[Th3Scourge]

min-maxing is the definition of black and white you doorknob.

It implies there are optimal routes to get the maximum out of your character, getting the most out of your raid composition, getting the most out of your pre-made

[munkeyinorbit]

You are assuming everyone agrees with your definition of "best".

I don't.

This is 15 year old content.

"Best" for me is taking my son and daughter, who are now 19 and 21 into see the raids with me, no matter what class they decide to play.
"Best" is finding a group of similar minded folks, that don't exclude people from raiding because their character isn't min/maxed.
"Best" is having fun with new people watching them learn how to raid.
"Best" are those who show up on time to raids.
"Best" are those who make a commitment to a raiding schedule.

I would pick these people, and whatever class they want to play, over some "go-go-go" try-hards every time.

Then you are wrong. Best means best performance and it essentially rules you out of the discussion because you have no want to do anything best. Have fun with your time bit leave the discussion on min/max to others.

[Aphrel]

At first i thought people were trolling.
But now i realize that people really dont get that there are diffrent lengths people can go to try and maximize their output.

The spectrum isnt about wether you have reached max or not, its about the effort youve gone throu to try reach your max.
You can put minimum effort into maximizing your characters power.
You can put a healthy effort into it by doing the things that has the biggest effect.
Or you can go all-in and try to get every little improvment possible.

Thus its a spectrum. Not a spectrum of wether your character is minmaxed or not.
Its a spectrum of your efforts towards minmax.

[Prozach]

At first i thought people were trolling.
But now i realize that people really dont get that there are diffrent lengths people can go to try and maximize their output.

The spectrum isnt about the result, its about the effort.
You can put minimum effort into maximizing your characters power.
You can put a healthy effort into it by doing the things that has the biggest effect.
Or you can go all-in and try to get every little improvment possible.

Thus its a spectrum. Not a spectrum of wether your character is minmaxed or not.
Its a spectrum of your efforts towards minmax.

There is no spectrum. There is a MAXIMUM(max) POTENTIAL dps/heal/etc. that your character is capable of. If you are trying to 'max', you are doing everything you possibly can to achieve that. If not, you are not trying to max, you're just playing and hoping for the best.

It doesn't matter WHY you aren't maxing--your kids, your job, lack of time, gold, resources, whatever--if you're not doing everything you possibly can to max, you're not doing it.

But, back to the real issue at hand here...certain specs are going to suck. OP can post this shit all he wants here, in game, in your guild chat, etc. Just because he really really wants to play his ret pally or enhance shaman or whatever, no one is going to buy it and he's still going to be 'that guy' who's playing selfishly. And bringing the rest of the raid down because of it.

[Rylalai]

Have you seen how badly the content gets crushed on private servers? 30 minute Molten Core runs. Killing Loatheb a minute ahead of soft enrage.

I guess you didn't know that private servers are way off with a lot of things because they just didn't know better. For example, did you know that every boss on private servers has 0 armor (de-facto around -6000 if I remember correctly, but the value can't be negative) with all armor reducing buffs applied because of armor reduction stacking additively on private servers? Or that they increased spawn rates for black lotus and other consumables so they basically can run around full buffed all the time? If you're interested in more, I'd suggest watching <snipped>
Don't post videos from illegal servers. Even from streamers.

Long story short, stop comparing private servers to vanilla/classic. It's not the same.

[Nitros14]

Full group of fury warriors and rogues, all GM gear, obviously not operating on 1.12, who knows how the server was custom'ed, etc. I think the most hilarious thing about that video is that anyone would think that's how classic is going to work. Or without the instant 60's and auto-legendaries.

Even if you don't clear it in 30 minutes, it's going to be ridiculously easy if you min-max. We're on 1.12 with 16 debuff slots and new talents that Molten Core wasn't designed for, plus itemization improvements.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25-uQJEruIQ With flasks and world buffs they kill C'thun in 4 minutes. If you look at old videos guilds were taking 10-15 minutes.

But even on world 3rd C'thun they weren't flasking the raid, no consumable buffs and they have a much more balanced raid setup. IIRC guilds didn't flask the raid until Loatheb.

[Voidwielder]

I will play Holy/Disc Priest so I have a spot reserved in every dungeon and raid by default lol.

Easy life.

[kamuimac]

tl;dr:

1. Nobody is forcing you to "minmax". There are tons of casual guilds that will accept anyone just to fill a raid group.

2. "minmaxing" is not black and white, it is a spectrum. There are various levels of "minmaxing". Not all of them are bad.

3. There is no "correct" way to play vanilla.
---------------

I constantly see people crying about "wahh elitsts, wahh minmaxers!!" around every Classic forum, usually in topics discussing viability of classes/specs. Every time someone points out that Ret paladins are awful raid DPS, it is met with cries of "REEE ELITIST MINMAXER REEE" and such.

Uh...there's a big difference between "minmaxing" and "not wanting to bring an awful DPS". There are various levels of "minmaxing", it's not black and white.

To give some examples of how minmaxing is a spectrum:

• Kinda minmaxing

Looking up the best talent spec for your class/role and BIS gear list

• Decently minmaxing

Not bringing hybrid DPS to raid, making sure everyone is properly specced

• Really minmaxing

Using full consumes on every boss, even farm content, getting DM buffs and world buffs for every farm raid

• Insane minmaxing

All healers are Priests or Paladins/Shamans, only 1 druid in the raid for mark of the wild, only 2 warlocks in the raid for curses, only 2 hunters in the raid for tranq, all other DPS are warrior/rogue/mage

---------------

See what I mean? You can "minmax" and still be reasonable with it. "minmaxing" does not automatically mean going to insane lengths of no-fun-allowed. In my experiences on private servers over the past 4 years, most guilds are just "decently" minmaxing. They might have ONE enhancement shaman / ret paladin with Nightfall, but that's about it.

On top of this, why is it a bad thing to want to play your character to its fullest potential? I don't understand why striving to be the best you can be is now "elitist" and deemed a bad, negative thing. This type of anti-improvement rhetoric tends to be thrown around by people wanting to play awful meme DPS, claiming that ret paladins and elemental shamans and balance druids are good DPS and should be brought to every raid.

Again, I really don't consider it "elitist" or "minmaxing" to not want a Ret paladin in your raid. It's not just a matter of DPS, but also a matter of utility. Ret just doesn't bring anything that a Holy paladin can't. Same with Enh/Ele Shamans. A Resto Shaman can bring all the same buffs/totems, in addition to Mana Tide which is a huge boon to the other healers. Feral does okay DPS, but also buffs the melee with 3% crit and is an extra brez/innervate as well as an emergency offtank. Shadow Priest at least benefits the warlocks and can still bubble/dispel/emergency heal.

In vanilla, you have to work as a raid/guild to clear the content, and as such, you should consider what is best for the raid group as a whole, not what is best for yourself. Shadow Priest at least benefits the warlocks and can still bubble/dispel/emergency heal, and Feral druids can do some decent DPS and also offtank, but Ret/Enh/Ele/Balance just can't really do enough DPS to justify their raid spot. Your only hope for raiding as Ret/Enh is to get a Nightfall and find a casual guild.

And I know, a common response is going to be:

"but vanilla raids are so easy, you don't need to have max DPS! a couple ret paladins won't hurt you!"

Probably true, but the point is that by bringing a ret paladin, you are consciously choosing to bring a DPS that's going to do less than half the DPS of a warrior/rogue/mage/warlock, while bringing nothing to the raid that a holy paladin can't. If you're struggling to fill your raid, sure, a ret paladin won't hurt you, but if the choice is between a ret and a warrior/rogue/mage/warlock, there's really no reason to choose the ret, if all other variables are equal. Also, once you're in AQ40/Naxx, you're really going to want as much DPS as you can get. Having bad hybrid DPS is only going to make things harder.

Just tired of people throwing around "minmaxer" as some kind of derogatory term, implying that people who strive to improve themselves and play to their fullest potential are wrong and bad.

i think you are extremly naive.

yes some weak guilds will invite subpar specs just as warm bodies but those people will never get even a single piece of gear and will be replaced the moment they manage to recruit bis specs

you are delusional if you think that people who are thinking about playing vanilla seriously aka raid will roll shit specs.

your "insane" will be" regular" for classic realms.

unless you mean guilds that never clear more then MC because their people will be poached left and right as soon as theywill get attuned for BWL because fuck runing low gear raids for attuning people

just wait and see for yourself

- - - Updated - - -

I guess you didn't know that private servers are way off with a lot of things because they just didn't know better. For example, did you know that every boss on private servers has 0 armor (de-facto around -6000 if I remember correctly, but the value can't be negative) with all armor reducing buffs applied because of armor reduction stacking additively on private servers? Or that they increased spawn rates for black lotus and other consumables so they basically can run around full buffed all the time? If you're interested in more, I'd suggest watching
<snipped>
Don't post videos from illegal servers.

Long story short, stop comparing private servers to vanilla/classic. It's not the same.

they also overtuned the f... out of those bosses .

you will see once MC is out and cleared in 1 night.

[Rylalai]

they also overtuned the f... out of those bosses .

you will see once MC is out and cleared in 1 night.

That will most likely be the case. As many pointed out, today is not 15 years ago. Everyone is a way better player compared to back then. And even back in vanilla we already cleared MC in a night.

[Aphrel]

If you are trying to 'max', you are doing everything you possibly can to achieve that. If not, you are not trying to max, you're just playing and hoping for the best.

So by your definition, if a person specs the correct spec, brings the best consumables, playes the most fotm class, yet has only 13 out of his 14 bis items then this person has according to you not tried to min max his char?

Is his char maxed out? No ofc it is not. there is still one more bis item to get.
But this theoretical person sure has tried to minmax. To claim otherwise is simply delusional.

The closer one gets to the real max, the more effort is needed for less gain. At the very end near complete max is probobly the r14 wepons. Wich require an absolute fuckton of playing to get.
Are you gonna claim that everyone who doesnt get rank 14 hasnt tried to minmax?

Imo, given how minamxing is used in conversaion. Id claim it is as much a verb as it is an adjective. Similar to Perfect and perfecting. ¨
And every step or effort a player takes to improve his/her preformance, is perfecting the character. Taking steps, one at a time, towards the perfect.
Thus, perfecting is a spectrum. Some wont do it at all, some will do it to great lengths. Some few might even reach all the way to perfect.

[XDurionX]

This thread title is an oxymoron. Minmaxing isn't a spectrum you either minmax or not.

This. Minmaxing is an exactly defined algorithm in game theory. There is ONE state in the decision tree that is minmaxing for a given metric.

[Rylalai]

So by your definition, if a person specs the correct spec, brings the best consumables, playes the most fotm class, yet has only 13 out of his 14 bis items then this person has according to you not tried to min max his char?

Is his char maxed out? No ofc it is not. there is still one more bis item to get.
But this theoretical person sure has tried to minmax. To claim otherwise is simply delusional.

The closer one gets to the real max, the more effort is needed for less gain. At the very end near complete max is probobly the r14 wepons. Wich require an absolute fuckton of playing to get.
Are you gonna claim that everyone who doesnt get rank 14 hasnt tried to minmax?

Imo, given how minamxing is used in conversaion. Id claim it is as much a verb as it is an adjective. Similar to Perfect and perfecting. ¨
And every step or effort a player takes to improve his/her preformance, is perfecting the character. Taking steps, one at a time, towards the perfect.
Thus, perfecting is a spectrum. Some wont do it at all, some will do it to great lengths. Some few might even reach all the way to perfect.

Such a wall of text just because you did not read his comment properly? Wow.

He wrote "If you are TRYING to max, you are doing everything you possibly can to achieve that."

Meaning ,if you only got 13 out of 14 BIS items because number 14 never dropped but you still kill the boss every week, you are TRYING to minmax... The moment you stop killing the boss, you don't try anymore.

[Aphrel]

Such a wall of text just because you did not read his comment properly? Wow.

He wrote "If you are TRYING to max, you are doing everything you possibly can to achieve that."

Meaning ,if you only got 13 out of 14 BIS items because number 14 never dropped but you still kill the boss every week, you are TRYING to minmax... The moment you stop killing the boss, you don't try anymore.

Yet you have tried... up to the point you decided it was not worth the effort anymore. (How many really try for the r14 weps? the effort is insane) I would call each item a step towards minmax. This is the aformentioned spectrum. To what degree has this player tried to minmax his char.
To maintain that trying to minmax is only true if the player goes all the way is a rediculus stance to take that simply isnt true.

But by all means feel free to think that minmax is only an ajective and not a verb. I will keep using it as both.

[huth]

Except that's the point this thread is trying to make lol. There's a spectrum by having the choice of doing it "till a certain point", sort of.

No, there is not. If you're not going for the extreme, you're not minmaxing to begin with. Failing at the task is one thing, never intending to do it is another.

[Razzako]

No, there is not. If you're not going for the extreme, you're not minmaxing to begin with. Failing at the task is one thing, never intending to do it is another.

I was pointing out what the OP is trying to convey. Not arguing against your point though, technically you're right.

[drbatman]

OP makes a post about min/max and doesnt even understand what it means, wow.

[roboscorcher]

Some guilds will bench hybrids, and as someone who will be playing Ret, that's fine. Raidgroups can decide that for themselves, I just hope that benching specs does not become the norm when the content is somewhat easy.