Modern WoW is too hardcore

[Krille]

You can't compare retail to class at all. Bosses in Vanilla sometimes took guild a week or two to even clear the first boss and sometimes even longer. In Vanilla specifically, there were many guilds that by the time they get to C'thun, Naxx was already released so they simply skipped C'thun and maybe came back later if they did at all. Nowadays most of the time not killing bosses is due to numbers and not having enough dps to kill things, and not so much skill. In vanilla, it was skill based off the entire raid as a whole. In vanilla, no one person could really wipe you on a fight barring special circumstances. Raid design nowadays is completely different and I wouldn't say hardcore at all. Hardcore to me means competing for say Top 20 US or even among the leaderboards and that is all a combination of good preparation, skill, time, and consistency. You are going to waste a lot of time if your raid can't consistently progress further on bosses to kill them, and if you are not knowledgeable of the fights going on, you will also waste a lot of time.
Vanilla didn't have a dungeon journal and crap like that, you had to pull the boss and figure stuff out and formulate your own strategies. You didn't get to pull the boss on heroic, or normal and see what he does. You get one difficulty. Yes I will agree modern WoW is much more hardcore in the racing aspect and the preparation aspect, but that by no means Vanilla is a cakewalk, it's just a different type of difficulty.

Imagine saying this with a straight face. Current raids have tight dps checks + 5 times the mechanics that any vanilla boss has. It's about being able to deal dmg while executing mechanics flawlessly. Anyone who actually believes this has never raided any relevant mythic raids in modern wow.

[Frosteye]

I would actually argue M+ has a LOT more to to with how classes are designed and balanced now. Up until their release i absolutely agree with you, but since M+, everything has changed again.

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It absolutely blows my mind that anyone actually believes this.

If you measure difficulty by the number of people completing content, then he is correct.

The long / tedious grind of Vanilla (not to mention the linear raiding progression) meant that something like less than 1% of players cleared Naxx. Even if the content itself isn't difficult, the requirements and pre-requisites may be.

I guess it boils down to semantics, but I would definitely classify WoW classic as a more difficult game overall.


Vanilla raids weren't mechanically more difficult perhaps, but the requirements and pre-requisites definitely made the overall experience more difficult IMHO.


As long as I'm enjoying myself and have something to keep working towards, I don't care if the game is mechanically difficult or time consuming.

What I don't like is how Modern WoW punishes me for going "hardcore" on a raid tier, and then the next patch comes out, and some casual who does his weekly M+ has a higher item level than me. This is why I quit raiding mythic in Legion. Catch up mechanics kill motivation.

[arkanon]

If you measure difficulty by the number of people completing content, then he is correct.

The long / tedious grind of Vanilla (not to mention the linear raiding progression) meant that something like less than 1% of players cleared Naxx. Even if the content itself isn't difficult, the requirements and pre-requisites may be.

I guess it boils down to semantics, but I would definitely classify WoW classic as a more difficult game overall.


Vanilla raids weren't mechanically more difficult perhaps, but the requirements and pre-requisites definitely made the overall experience more difficult IMHO.


As long as I'm enjoying myself and have something to keep working towards, I don't care if the game is mechanically difficult or time consuming.

What I don't like is how Modern WoW punishes me for going "hardcore" on a raid tier, and then the next patch comes out, and some casual who does his weekly M+ has a higher item level than me. This is why I quit raiding mythic in Legion. Catch up mechanics kill motivation.

Ah yes, the old 'time = difficulty' argument. Comes up every single time anyone tries to claim vanilla was hard. There was NOTHING mechanically hard in the game at all. Raid or otherwise. And many of the high end mythic raiders who spend days farming content day in day out to prepare for raids might have a thing or two to say about there being no prep.

What people tend to do is compare bleeding edge hardcore raiders in vanilla with causal mythic raiders dabbling in mythic 3 months after the raid launches, which is very disingenuous.

Hopefuly we can at least agree that the dps / hps requirements are higher now (overall), encounter design is exponentially more difficult now vs vanilla, teamwork / communication requirements are exponentially higher now Vs vanilla......i think the only argument for vanilla raids being "harder" is 'we had to farm mats for hours before the raid' and i personally think that is a terrible argument.

I also believe max lvl 5mans were overall more challenging than the raids.

[Sorcereria]

Just look what was done to proffesion leveling. I left game in MoP pretty abruptly with 140k gold and around 1-2million gold in reagents (by today standards IF*) that could be used to leveling proffesions if I came back to the game *IF the proffesion leveling system wasnt changed to a shitshow. Now they pose NO value.

That game gone so wrong when I started to read what happened in 5years.

[Lurker1]

The only thing hard about classic is getting 39 monkeys to listen to the leader.

[Elias01]

I don't get it. In Classic you had your one difficulty and threw yourself at it. Now you have 4 difficulties and you chose to do solo content and the lowest raid difficulty. And it is Ion's fault. Because you totally could not be doing heroic raiding and like it? And the people who support FOUR difficulties are suddenly showing their elitism because of that?

I would have thought something like AQ 40 and Naxx 40 would be the middle finger to anyone not elitist

/mind blown - but I am sure you can somehow explain it.

Who would thought that players will pick path of least resistance to experinece content.For majoritu of players having difficulty levels isnt choice. They will always pick easy mod and finish content by most efficient way possible. And no it isnt players fault. It is flawed game desing. People will force themseld to do content with only 1 difficulty level becousr there is no other way to do it. You do it or not. LFR increased raid participation but players also quit much faster. Having multiple difficulty levels was never good desing. It caused so many problems only to slighly increase participation in raids. Most people what do LFR do not even enyoj that experince. They just do it for free rewards and content. I have quit raiding on retail becouse of how accessible raiding has become. I can just pick easy mod, finish game and quit. In classic i have to do that 1 difficulty or i wont see content so i a gonna start raiding again.

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Ah yes, the old 'time = difficulty' argument. Comes up every single time anyone tries to claim vanilla was hard. There was NOTHING mechanically hard in the game at all. Raid or otherwise. And many of the high end mythic raiders who spend days farming content day in day out to prepare for raids might have a thing or two to say about there being no prep.

What people tend to do is compare bleeding edge hardcore raiders in vanilla with causal mythic raiders dabbling in mythic 3 months after the raid launches, which is very disingenuous.

Hopefuly we can at least agree that the dps / hps requirements are higher now (overall), encounter design is exponentially more difficult now vs vanilla, teamwork / communication requirements are exponentially higher now Vs vanilla......i think the only argument for vanilla raids being "harder" is 'we had to farm mats for hours before the raid' and i personally think that is a terrible argument.

I also believe max lvl 5mans were overall more challenging than the raids.

Yeah sure and since when raid difficulty is determined just by boss mechanics hmm? Time, mechanics, pre raid prepartion, attuments, grind for ressistance gear, etc is also part of what makes raids difficult to do. Mechanics are just one of many aspects it isnt main one. This only shows what audience currently plays wow. You guys have no clue what rpg games are about.

[munkeyinorbit]

Who would thought that players will pick path of least resistance to experinece content.For majoritu of players having difficulty levels isnt choice. They will always pick easy mod and finish content by most efficient way possible. And no it isnt players fault. It is flawed game desing. People will force themseld to do content with only 1 difficulty level becousr there is no other way to do it. You do it or not. LFR increased raid participation but players also quit much faster. Having multiple difficulty levels was never good desing. It caused so many problems only to slighly increase participation in raids. Most people what do LFR do not even enyoj that experince. They just do it for free rewards and content. I have quit raiding on retail becouse of how accessible raiding has become. I can just pick easy mod, finish game and quit. In classic i have to do that 1 difficulty or i wont see content so i a gonna start raiding again.

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Yeah sure and since when raid difficulty is determined just by boss mechanics hmm? Time, mechanics, pre raid prepartion, attuments, grind for ressistance gear, etc is also part of what makes raids difficult to do. Mechanics are just one of many aspects it isnt main one. This only shows what audience currently plays wow. You guys have no clue what rpg games are about.

Consumables and resist gear hard? You are joking right? Anything that can be purchased is not hard. My guild(s) needed consumables and resist gear back in the day. We bought it. Mechanics are the ONLY thing to consider when deciding if content is hard or not. I agree with that other random. Clearing a max level 5 man is harder than vanilla raiding.

[melodramocracy]

It's hard to compare the state of the game in 2019 to that in 2005. The MMORPG mentality has evolved since then.

I'd use another word for it, to be honest.

[Maudib]

To this date nobody has ever fully geared a toon with Mythic level gear or higher with LFR Titanforges.

Why would you even care to try?

LFR gives you the story and dumbed down encounters that rewards gear higher than you need to start the next expansion with.... the rest of the game is grinding azerite you don;t need and gear you don't need, to kill mobs in the world you don't go out into, and slay bosses you already killed, and queue for mythic+'s you don't really want to run.

[Alvito]

That is the beauty of Retail. You can pick your ability / skill ceiling because they have implemented multiple tiers of "difficulty" to content.



The Private Server junkies who got that stuff down to a perfect science will speed through content with ease.

Most people on BETA are using the chance to perfect routes / items / group comps to max their blitz of the content. We've been seeing stuff in this BETA that people thought was utterly impossible to do "back in the day"

The pace of gating is much different on private servers. The ease of getting lotus for alchemy, zone/raid wide buff timers weren't right, respawns on rare/wb are faster on private servers. Leveling quickly is one thing. Being able to gather up the matterials you need and get the raid drops you need to do certain bosses is going to be a bigger wall than it is on private servers. Will some move faster and with greater ease, absolute. Most will hit certain quagmires in the game and slow down. All will hit things like farming onyxia scales for several weeks to move forward.

[jeezusisacasual]

The largest problems with classic is that Hybrids were expected to heal and when mindsets like that are so engraved its hard to change is what made me never want to touch a hybrid or healing class when it releases. I am just that person who has moved on from being more dedicated then the bare minimums because why? Whats the point? As i dont care for ranks nor do i care about prestige and hell i barely talk to anyone in dungeon groups, i just do my job which will be a rogue in classic. I have time to put forth more effort but why if it is not needed and i am not that concerned with logs and ranks? I will farm for some materials sure but if that stops me from raiding then i will just stop playing like i have for the main game. Games for me now are just time sinks until something better comes along so i hope classic lasts longer then 3-4 months or inspires me to do more then the bare minimum.

[anon5123]

>modern WoW
>hardcore

[Charge me Doctor]

I don't get it. In Classic you had your one difficulty and threw yourself at it. Now you have 4 difficulties and you chose to do solo content and the lowest raid difficulty. And it is Ion's fault. Because you totally could not be doing heroic raiding and like it? And the people who support FOUR difficulties are suddenly showing their elitism because of that?

I would have thought something like AQ 40 and Naxx 40 would be the middle finger to anyone not elitist

/mind blown - but I am sure you can somehow explain it.

It's easy to explain it - model works as intended. People who aren't interested in raiding can have their LFR and non-raiding activities, others just enjoy three difficulty. Imagine this person to play classic? You reach level 60, realize that there is no button that puts you into the raid... you have to leave your current guild and find the one that actually raids, they ask you to send them your summary... go to a WSG, stand 20 minutes in queue doing nothing, game pops up, there is a bunch of %enemyfaction% in full epics who roflstop your green sorry ass... /camp

[anon5123]

It's easy to explain it - model works as intended. People who aren't interested in raiding can have their LFR and non-raiding activities, others just enjoy three difficulty. Imagine this person to play classic? You reach level 60, realize that there is no button that puts you into the raid... you have to leave your current guild and find the one that actually raids, they ask you to send them your summary... go to a WSG, stand 20 minutes in queue doing nothing, game pops up, there is a bunch of %enemyfaction% in full epics who roflstop your green sorry ass... /camp

"wahh wahh I want to be showered in epix with no effort "

[Charge me Doctor]

You just can't have multiple difficulties that extend down to something as easy as LFR coexisting with a paradigm where there's progression below the highest level.

The easiest gearing path will through the easiest content until you reach the very end of progression. For example, in raids, the optimal path is:

LFR Tier 1 > LFR Tier 2 > LFR Tier 3 > Normal Tier 3 > Heroic Tier 3 > Mythic Tier 3.

That's the core issue here. Every time they release a new tier they invalidate everything beforehand because the catch up stuff is super easy.

Call mythic raiders right now, they are doing it wrong, this guy knows the optimal way to gear toons.

Doing LFR for gear is not a thing since... dragonsoul?

[LSguild]

Modern WoW is going to undergo a bunch of changes after the devs see the success of classic. I guarantee it.

[arkanon]

Yeah sure and since when raid difficulty is determined just by boss mechanics hmm? Time, mechanics, pre raid prepartion, attuments, grind for ressistance gear, etc is also part of what makes raids difficult to do. Mechanics are just one of many aspects it isnt main one. This only shows what audience currently plays wow. You guys have no clue what rpg games are about.

What a load of rubbish. None of the crap you talk about is hard at all, in any way, shape or form, and by any definition. They are only time consuming, and that is all. You are arguing that watching paint dry is very difficult and challenging because it takes so long. Mind blowing bullshit right there. LITERALLY the only difficulty in vanilla raiding was the time it took to get ready, and keeping at least 25 of your 40 raiders awake and online.

[RumbleShakes]

01. Completing quests in a zone on Normal difficulty unlocks Heroic. Heroic unlocks Mythic difficulty. Able to toggle in Stormwind or Orgrimmar which difficulty you want.
02. Add in new reputation level past Exalted.
03. Add a new specialization to Rogue, Warlock, Mage, and Hunter. Next major patch adds Priest, DH, DK, Warrior. Next major patch adds one for Shaman, Monk, Paladin. Next major patch adds lastly Druid and DH (giving them a 4th).
a. DK: Flesh (minions) which summons ghouls, zombies, and spirits. Minion master. Able to wield staffs. Attacks command your minions to use specific abilities.
b. DH: Fel (healer) sacrifices health to restore health of allies. Gaze (caster) causes damage by applying negative effects and channeling damage.
c. Druid: Lifewarden (minions) spawns plants (moving and stationary) to deal damage to enemies.
d. Hunter: Frenzy (tank) causes your pet to ignore damage and threatens nearby enemies. If the pet takes fatal damage it leaps at the Hunter and attacks him dealing 95% of their health.
e. Mage: Heat (healer) restores health of allies by acting (movement, attacks, spells, abilities, cooldowns).
f. Monk: Chi Carver (caster) saves secondary spells to apply to primary spells.
f. Paladin: Exorcism (caster) pulls the sins of an enemy and shackles it which is attacked by the Exorcist. Cannot deal damage to enemy directly.
g. Priest: Void (minions) specializes in pulling horrors from the void temporarily to attack a particular enemy.
h. Rogue: Illusionist (tank) causes enemies to attack echos and illusions allowing the Rogue to shake off damage or split damage taken.
i. Shaman: Earthen (tank) uses the Stoneclaw Totem to transfer a varying percentage of damage taken. Able to increase for a short duration and refresh its health. It's not able to be healed.
j. Warlock: Possession (tank) trades your physical body to pull from the nether realm a bulwark demon. When the demon takes fatal damage the caster returns to the battle with 99% health.
k. Warrior: Shouts (healer) shouts at enemies causing allies to leech health from the targets.
04. Add a 4th talent column and an 8th tier.
05. Talents have 5 ranks and characters gain 1 point every 2 levels starting at 10 up to 40 total at level 90.
06. Player and guild housing.
07. Crafting requires you to complete a very random puzzle with number of crafts completing and skill level depending on puzzle difficulty.
08. Revamp fishing so you fight the fish which can be a fish with a weight. Heavier fish is tougher but gives you more meat when prepared.
09. Herbs can gain seeds which can be planted back at your house.
10. Mining deposits can open a hidden cave which contain enemies and new deposits.
11. Skinning a corpse turns it into a heap of flesh with loot left on it rather removing the corpse.
12. Disenchanting adds a window that requires you to click on random points shown on your screen. Think of "whack a mole".
13. Milling is given to Alchemy and Inscription and both professions use the same materials.
14. Let crafting professions require other professions to make parts for epic items.
15. Mythic dungeons have it's difficulty revamped so each level increases damage and health by a much smaller amount. This will make levels not so dramatic of a change.
16. Add in 200 v 200 (at least 80 v 80) battlegrounds for Wintergrasp, Ashran, and Tol Barad.
17. Raid events drop trophies rather than loot. These trophies can be spent on items from the event table or traded 2 for 1 of a higher trophy.
18. Raids and dungeons have a random generated map with events having the same room setups.
19. Necklace enchant add a head glow effect.
20. Ring enchants add a hand glow effect.
21. Bring back resistances which reduces damage taken and gives a small chance of ignoring spells of the same type.
22. New Holy resistance. Lightforged Draenei gain 10 resistance as a racial.

[anon5123]

01. Completing quests in a zone on Normal difficulty unlocks Heroic. Heroic unlocks Mythic difficulty. Able to toggle in Stormwind or Orgrimmar which difficulty you want.

Heroic and Mythic....questing?

LOL

02. Add in new reputation levels past Exalted.

Why? Rep grinds already take like 4-5 weeks minimum.

03. Add a new specialization to Rogue, Warlock, Mage, and Hunter. Next major patch adds Priest, DH, DK, Warrior. Next major patch adds one for Shaman, Monk, Paladin. Next major patch adds lastly Druid and DH (giving them a 4th).

Oh, so you want every single class to be able to perform every single role?

What the fuck is the point of even HAVING classes if every class can do everything?

04. Add a 4th talent column.
05. Talents have 5 ranks and characters gain 1 point every 3 levels starting at 10.

They already dropped the old talent system, they're never going back to it.

06. Player and guild housing.

They tried that in WoD. It failed miserably.

07. Crafting requires you to complete a very random puzzle with number of crafts completing and skill level depending on puzzle difficulty.

Why? Literally why. This is just adding a dumb minigame for the sake of adding a dumb minigame.

No minigames.

08. Revamp fishing so you fight the fish which can be a fish with a weight.

"revamp fishing to be not fishing anymore"

lol

09. Herbs can gain seeds which can be planted back at your house.

Already did in WoD. Was annoying to micromanage.

10. Mining deposits can open a hidden cave which contain enemies and new deposits.

That's not how ground works.

11. Skinning a corpse turns it into a heap of flesh with loot left on it rather removing the corpse.

Why? It's just going to leave more clutter on the ground.

12. Disenchanting adds a window that requires you to click on random points shown on your screen. Think of "whack a mole".

No dumb minigames.

13. Milling is given to Alchemy and Inscription and both professions use the same materials.

Or just remove Milling because it's kinda pointless and just make Inscription use herbs.

14. Let crafting professions require other professions to make parts for epic items.

In modern WoW with its single-player focus, this wouldn't work.

15. Mythic dungeons have it's difficulty revamped so each level increases damage and health by a much smaller amount. This will make levels not so dramatic of a change.

So instead of M+10 we'll have M+100

literally pointless

16. Add in 200 v 200 (at least 80 v 80) battlegrounds for Wintergrasp, Ashran, and Tol Barad.

m8, the new servers can't handle more than 100 people in the same area

17. Raid events drop trophies rather than loot. These trophies can be spent on items from the event table or traded 2 for 1 of a higher trophy.

You mean badges? Blizz already dropped that system a long time ago.

18. Raids and dungeons have a random generated map with events having the same room setups.

If I wanted random generated shit I'd go play Diablo 3.

19. Necklace enchant add a head glow effect.
20. Ring enchants add a hand glow effect.

More pointless graphics effects that you can only see when you're standing still not doing anything.

[RumbleShakes]

I guess "LOL" is considered an educated response. Rep grinding didn't take 4-5 weeks for me which it ended up with just finishing off the remaining few thousand through World Quests. I guess adding a new role to the classes makes them able to do all the abilities. I don't think you read what I posted. Just because a Rogue is stealthy doesn't mean it can't do other things. I guess the only difference between Live talents and Classic talents is adding one row of talents. That's new to me. Garrisons didn't fail. That's definitely a personal opinion. Crafting, I guess, has to be mindless. Removing Milling would work, congrats! We agreed on something with real thought. Wait, wait, wait... World of Warcraft is a single-player focused game?! Making mythic keystone difficulty increasing slower allows enemies to have a 25% increase after 1 level increase. Servers couldn't handle a 200 v 200 battle? You mean like original Wintergrasp, Tol Barad, and Ashran??? Badges were basically reputation specific or a general thing like Justice Badges. It's to help players who have bad luck with drop rates and rolling. Not all of us are as lucky as you. I guess some of us want some kind of 'new' to the content. If graphics are pointless then I guess you should go back to playing retro games. Also, I guess weapon enchants disappear when you walk--again, that's new to me! How about you just give real reasons not to do something like you brought up with Milling. You had 1 good point out of 20.