Modern WoW is too hardcore

[Wewlad]

When I see Retail players wiping repeatedly on Twin Emperors, I know people like OP are in for a surprise.

A lot of Retail mechanics are complete fucking busywork, but throw in something that requires a little forethought such as the Twin Emperors or Four Horsemen and most of these spam clickers will find themselves at a loss.

[ManiaCCC]

If it was so easy, everyone would be a "grand chef".

That's true but we are talking about wow standards here. PvE rotations in WoW is like boiling water. And if you can make tea? You are god damn grandmaster..

[Terongor]

That means cooking is god damn hardcore and yet, I am doing it every day...

Complex and hard isn't always the same time complex only means it takes alot of steppes to do and usually its tied with hard.
Also saying Oxford dictionary is wrong about english language is extremely arrogant.
Is chemically speaking cooking and especially baking is pretty complex.

[Specialka]

That's true but we are talking about wow standards here. PvE rotations in WoW is like boiling water. And if you can make tea? You are god damn grandmaster..

Obv, bfa wow rotation are not hard per se. BUT add to it boss mecanics and such. Doing it perfectly starts to become a little harder. But you would not know.

[ManiaCCC]

Obv, bfa wow rotation are not hard per se. BUT add to it boss mecanics and such. Doing it perfectly starts to become a little harder. But you would not know.

Yea yea, I never done challenging content in WoW..like ever. Thankfully I have you, who can tell me stories how you have to go above and beyond of human capabilities to maintain correct rotation and move away from fire. What would I do without you.

Complex and hard isn't always the same time complex only means it takes alot of steppes to do and usually its tied with hard.
Also saying Oxford dictionary is wrong about english language is extremely arrogant.
Is chemically speaking cooking and especially baking is pretty complex.

You know what is pathetic? You know exactly what I said and yet, you just posted some copy-paste definition of "complexity" without telling, what is actually so complex about WoW pve rotation. Again, if you really believe that pve rotation is complex thing to do, I am saying making soup is absolutely next level shit to this.

[Ekis]

Well they removed alot things which weren't needed or you used maybe once a year or once month and just having a button that unique but not useful at all is just spells for sake of having them and doesn't serve any other point.

But that directly affected class fantasy and promoted homogenization, which is what we're referring to. So what you didn't use a certain spell all the time, there were cases where you did use one or the other though. Exorcism on Undead? Stance dancing warriors? Eye of the Beast was awesome for scouting as a Hunter. Sentry Totem was bugged as all hell but even that had a fun use.

I mean not everything was about flexing big d*** dps back then.

Also not all classes have interupts even now for example druids they have silence beams and stuns which doesn't work on every interrupt possibility.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/List_of_in...pecializations

All classes have interrupts/CC and many got them in Wrath. Of course not every one worked in every situation but they all had them. Homogenization, anyone?

well lets compare best wlock build from tbc for example current destro. tbc shadow bolt, shadow bolt and shadow bolt etc. St bfa Immolate, incinerate, conflacrate if 5 soul shards use chaos bolt and then use double conflacrate and the rest of chaos bolts and if talented channel demonfire thats already 5.

or prot warrior from vanilla and current prot warrior. vanilla spam sunder armor as it does most aggro and current prot warrior shield slam, thunder clap, revenge if its only free and devastate thats already 4 to vanillas one. Using useless abilities/spells in vanilla makes you bad player like the rest of those over which were taken away.

LOL Did you really play Vanilla? Because this sounds too much like someone who joined in later expansions or played on private servers. And Destro is pretty much the same amount of keys now in BFA as it was with Affliction in TBC (You didn't do Shadow Bolt spamming until you got decent gear and that was pretty much going into BT; let's not forget that most people didn't make it into SSC/TK for T5 let alone see BT for T6 gear where you spammed Shadow Bolt and topped meters, most were Affliction prior till T6 which is why I'm wondering why you didn't mention this spec).

I mained a Warlock in TBC. Let's not act like we were spamming Shadow Bolts out the box because we lacked the amount of spell hit and crit needed to even make Improved Shadow Bolt (and Shadow Destro by default) work. And before then Fire Destro was much better in terms of dps.

[Littleraven]

It's not that they are too hardcore. It's just they don't give players enough content outside of the typical gear grind. WoW used to feel like a world you somewhat lived in where you could go out and feel like you were beig rewarded for something. All of that has been shifted into raids and mythic plus.

They basically took the world of of the game. They tried to bring it back with world quests but those for the most part are too shallow. To no fault of their since there really are only like 5 or 6 quests types you can make up before you start retreading the same ground. They need to allow for more sandbox content and things for players to sort of "create" on their own. Not actually creating content but letting things organically happen in the world.

[Terongor]

But that directly affected class fantasy and promoted homogenization, which is what we're referring to. So what you didn't use a certain spell all the time, there were cases where you did use one or the other though. Exorcism on Undead? Stance dancing warriors? Eye of the Beast was awesome for scouting as a Hunter. Sentry Totem was bugged as all hell but even that had a fun use.

I mean not everything was about flexing big d*** dps back then.



https://wow.gamepedia.com/List_of_in...pecializations

All classes have interrupts/CC and many got them in Wrath. Of course not every one worked in every situation but they all had them. Homogenization, anyone?




LOL Did you really play Vanilla? Because this sounds too much like someone who joined in later expansions or played on private servers. And Destro is pretty much the same amount of keys now in BFA as it was with Affliction in TBC (You didn't do Shadow Bolt spamming until you got decent gear and that was pretty much going into BT; let's not forget that most people didn't make it into SSC/TK for T5 let alone see BT for T6 gear where you spammed Shadow Bolt and topped meters, most were Affliction prior till T6 which is why I'm wondering why you didn't mention this spec).

I mained a Warlock in TBC. Let's not act like we were spamming Shadow Bolts out the box because we lacked the amount of spell hit and crit needed to even make Improved Shadow Bolt (and Shadow Destro by default) work. And before then Fire Destro was much better in terms of dps.

So? Keeping them served no point as they didn't to anything in actual gameplay.

Interupts and ccs are differant.... its like calling every class has polymorph and by far there are only specific cc which helps on specific raid bosses if it helped.

I actually did and the shadow bolt spam was affli destro hyprid also frozen shadowweave set combined with spellstrike were the gear which was used for the spam and was bis before BT and it was crafted which means could easily be had before even hc dungeons then. As both of them added alot of shadow damage, spellhit and critic which were combensated by low stamina but locks didn't need it so it was more than perfect. So either you are lying or was really bad lock then as you made alot of mistakes.

- - - Updated - - -

Yea yea, I never done challenging content in WoW..like ever. Thankfully I have you, who can tell me stories how you have to go above and beyond of human capabilities to maintain correct rotation and move away from fire. What would I do without you.




You know what is pathetic? You know exactly what I said and yet, you just posted some copy-paste definition of "complexity" without telling, what is actually so complex about WoW pve rotation. Again, if you really believe that pve rotation is complex thing to do, I am saying making soup is absolutely next level shit to this.

I explained clearly current has 9 possivilitys to use and has to be used on good time so having 9 of them and choosing best for the situation is more complex than throwing corruption, curse and shooting shadow bolts some times refreshing dots and mana which and 4 possibilities is less complex than 9.

[Ekis]

So? Keeping them served no point as they didn't to anything in actual gameplay.

According to whom? All of those had actual use in gameplay, wtf is this kind of comment?

Interupts and ccs are differant.... its like calling every class has polymorph and by far there are only specific cc which helps on specific raid bosses if it helped.

Okay since you don't understand:

Rogues: Kick
Shamans: Wind Shear
Priests: Silence
Mages: Counterspell
Druids: Skull Bash
Warriors: Pummel
Paladins: Rebuke, Avenger's Shield (which was only even baked in because Prot Pallies needed something that separated them in BC)
Hunters: Counter Shot
And then hero classes: DKs: Mind Freeze, Monks: Spear Hand Strike, DH's: Consume Magic (Just adding these because LOL)

Every class got an interrupt in post-BC and a signficant in Cata so umm...wat?

I actually did and the shadow bolt spam was affli destro hyprid also frozen shadowweave set combined with spellstrike were the gear which was used for the spam and was bis before BT and it was crafted which means could easily be had before even hc dungeons then. As both of them added alot of shadow damage, spellhit and critic which were combensated by low stamina but locks didn't need it so it was more than perfect. So either you are lying or was really bad lock then as you made alot of mistakes.

No, you were the bad lock because the Frozen Shadoweave set lacked any spell hit and crit to make it viable for Shadow Destro compared to Affliction; you were better building the Spellstrike set and going Fire Destro simply for that sole reason until you got T5/T6. Now I know you have no clue what you're talking about.

[Bigbazz]

You got it twisted. Classic is more hardcore than Retail.

How many people do you expect who whine about Retail being to "grindy" to make it past 40 in Classic?

Modern is more hardcore, because it has an equal or greater level of grinding than Classic, but the level of your play needs to be higher to succeed in the content. If you're talking longterm playing then nobody cares about the levelling process, it takes longer and is more difficult to hit 60 in Classic than it does to hit 120 in BFA by a monumental margin, but it's still a relatively easy and straightforward experience once you settle into it, it's not really worth even looking at.

Raiding at 60 doesn't get properly hard until Naxx, but BFA is seasonal and all the raids are hard on the highest difficulty, and harder than Naxx. BFA from a high end players perspective is much more hardcore than Vanilla, the standards are much higher (both from the content and as to what is expected by the playerbase), the use of addons like raider.io, websites like warcraft logs and in depth theorycrafting tools like simcraft show that, the bar is raised in every manner.

And if you're not talking about progression PVE or competitive PVP then it's kinda a pointless discussion anyway, Vanilla was built on casual players and BFA gives them "stuff to do", modern game is more of a theme park but it's hollow by comparison, hardcore isn't really part of that discussion.

[MatadorMedia]

In modern Warcraft once players reach something they can't progress past, in this case heroic/mythic raiding, they quit. They either aren't good enough or don't feel like they're making as much progress as they would like.

Well, for me, after my guild has cleared the raid then what's the point in continuing? There's no real benefit to moving beyond Normal into Heroic or Mythic difficulty except for different colored gear sets. The content is completed; there is no more motivation for me since the harder difficulties just add stupid mechanics which just serve to annoy me.

[Charge me Doctor]

That wasn't my point at all, my point is, rotations always were super simple and still are, there is nothing complex, hard or, IMO, interesting - no matter if it's 2,3 or 5 buttons.

However my Survival hunter and Demo lock really had the most annoying rotation I ever played.

I wonder, if rotations in BfA are so super simple, why so many players struggle with them? No offense, but care to spare a log of your gameplay? I'm 100% sure you are doing your rotation wrong, if you think it's "super simple" (or picked easiest talents for less work and less reward).

[Terongor]

According to whom? All of those had actual use in gameplay, wtf is this kind of comment?



Okay since you don't understand:

Rogues: Kick
Shamans: Wind Shear
Priests: Silence
Mages: Counterspell
Druids: Skull Bash
Warriors: Pummel
Paladins: Rebuke, Avenger's Shield (which was only even baked in because Prot Pallies needed something that separated them in BC)
Hunters: Counter Shot
And then hero classes: DKs: Mind Freeze, Monks: Spear Hand Strike, DH's: Consume Magic (Just adding these because LOL)

Every class got an interrupt in post-BC and a signficant in Cata so umm...wat?



No, you were the bad lock because the Frozen Shadoweave set lacked any spell hit and crit to make it viable for Shadow Destro compared to Affliction; you were better building the Spellstrike set and going Fire Destro simply for that sole reason until you got T5/T6. Now I know you have no clue what you're talking about.

An actual gameplay is combat. How often did you use original curse of doom? We have alot of more of those spells.

Priest sillence doesn't work as a interupt for players only npcs and it only for shadow. Druid one is only for guardiang and feral. Avengers is interupt for only non players again and prot only counter shot is only for BM and marskmanship.

As they weren't for each specc and many were only for non players

As they had each 3 gem slots and both frozen shadowweave and spellstrike set were different pieces of the equipment combining with aiming loots from other sources it worked well still.

[deenman]

According to whom? All of those had actual use in gameplay, wtf is this kind of comment?



Okay since you don't understand:

Rogues: Kick
Shamans: Wind Shear
Priests: Silence
Mages: Counterspell
Druids: Skull Bash
Warriors: Pummel
Paladins: Rebuke, Avenger's Shield (which was only even baked in because Prot Pallies needed something that separated them in BC)
Hunters: Counter Shot
And then hero classes: DKs: Mind Freeze, Monks: Spear Hand Strike, DH's: Consume Magic (Just adding these because LOL)

Every class got an interrupt in post-BC and a signficant in Cata so umm...wat?



No, you were the bad lock because the Frozen Shadoweave set lacked any spell hit and crit to make it viable for Shadow Destro compared to Affliction; you were better building the Spellstrike set and going Fire Destro simply for that sole reason until you got T5/T6. Now I know you have no clue what you're talking about.

small nitpick monks arent hero class:>

[Greengrim]

...Oh you mean the best dps of vanilla with fire and frost mages casting one spell or in tbc warlock shadow bolt spam so much simpler classes now as its 4 buttons on average combat.

It was so hard spamming sunder armor the classes were so complex.

I'm almost sure that you have only heard stories of Vanilla and TBC. Either that, or you were just too young to remember. The complexity of earlier raids did not come from playing your char, although gameplay was times more complicated than it is now, having to have multiple ranks of same spell on your bars, etc. The high difficulty of oldschool raids was coming from the fact you had to bunch up 40 people who actually had half a brain and then manage then around the instances and between raid sessions. The raid preparation for individuals was also insanely difficult too: there was no fatboss back in the day; you had to farm runes, shards, oils apart from the flask and foodbuff; you had to get attunements so you could even enter the raid instances; for some of them you also needed specific elemental resistance gear. Now imagine this - people had to do all these stuff when WoW was brand new. Things were not burnt into their brains as they are now when the years of experience have passed. It was all new and unknown, complicated for many individuals.

[Th3Scourge]

Complexities never came in the form of rotations, it came in knowing what to do and when. DPS could just go "balls to the wall" then pull threat and die, or go OOM and be useless. Knowing when to conserve or when to go harder is as much of a skill as the algorithmic dps rotations we have today.

Unless you played a destro lock in BC :P In which case your dps was gimped by the number of times you had to life tap

[ManiaCCC]

I wonder, if rotations in BfA are so super simple, why so many players struggle with them? No offense, but care to spare a log of your gameplay? I'm 100% sure you are doing your rotation wrong, if you think it's "super simple" (or picked easiest talents for less work and less reward).

I don't play BfA, Legion was my last expansion. I played BfA during 3 trials and I was just bored to dead.

However are people really struggling? Or aren't they just hitting the top 5%? Because only 5% can hit top 5% you know

There were people, who couldn't maintain solid rotation even in Vanilla. And some people can't even boil pasta.



- - - Updated - - -

Complexities never came in the form of rotations, it came in knowing what to do and when. DPS could just go "balls to the wall" then pull threat and die, or go OOM and be useless. Knowing when to conserve or when to go harder is as much of a skill as the algorithmic dps rotations we have today.

Unless you played a destro lock in BC :P In which case your dps was gimped by the number of times you had to life tap

This guy gets it.

[crusadernero]

Well, for me, after my guild has cleared the raid then what's the point in continuing? There's no real benefit to moving beyond Normal into Heroic or Mythic difficulty except for different colored gear sets. The content is completed; there is no more motivation for me since the harder difficulties just add stupid mechanics which just serve to annoy me.

One of the biggest reasons why Blizzard needs to remove difficulty on raids, remove atleast two. Also bring back tier sets so people have a reason to go back.

Just idea: Keep normal & HC. Have HC the option of "clicking a button" that makes the encounter even harder and gives better loot/rewards.

[Charge me Doctor]

I don't play BfA, Legion was my last expansion. I played BfA during 3 trials and I was just bored to dead.

However are people really struggling? Or aren't they just hitting the top 5%? Because only 5% can hit top 5% you know

There were people, who couldn't maintain solid rotation even in Vanilla. And some people can't even boil pasta.

So how do you know how simple "rotations" are? Even most basic "rotations" (nevermind that there was no "rotations" in PvE since... wotlk?) consist of at least 5 actions. And that doesn't include pre-fight things talent picks, stat sims, azerite perks, boss mechanics, spec-boss interactions (one spec may have harder time dealing with random mechanic than other) and multiple variables that a regular raider has to deal with in any raid difficulty. Off course - lower difficulty is (and better your gear) more stuff you can just sweep under the rug, but that's the case in literally any iteration of wow.

Just go to warcraftlogs and grab a random parse of purlpe-blue DPS guy and see how many times he fucked up during an encounter. You will never find a player who players 100% perfectly.

[ManiaCCC]

So how do you know how simple "rotations" are? Even most basic "rotations" (nevermind that there was no "rotations" in PvE since... wotlk?) consist of at least 5 actions. And that doesn't include pre-fight things talent picks, stat sims, azerite perks, boss mechanics, spec-boss interactions (one spec may have harder time dealing with random mechanic than other) and multiple variables that a regular raider has to deal with in any raid difficulty. Off course - lower difficulty is (and better your gear) more stuff you can just sweep under the rug, but that's the case in literally any iteration of wow.

Just go to warcraftlogs and grab a random parse of purlpe-blue DPS guy and see how many times he fucked up during an encounter. You will never find a player who players 100% perfectly.

So BfA has more complex rotations than Legion? Seriously? Also "reading logs" is really absurd, you have no idea if the guy wasn't moving away from adds, hazard area, or fulfilling some mini objective. And again, I can't take you seriously if you are telling me wow rotations are some complex thing to do.