Catch-Up Mechanics & Incentive to raid/play

[Relapses]

Also, add in the evil shareholders and Bobby Kotick and you have undeniable evidence of why LFR has ruined the game. Your picture proves it so.

...and he would've got away with it, too, if it weren't for you meddling forum-posters! :^)

[TrollHunter3000]

Correlating subscriber loss with any single feature is one of the most common and frustrating logical fallacies I see on these forums. Every other fucking thread some galaxy-brained supergenius links this picture to support their argument and proceeds to act as if they've ascended this corporeal world and can finally see the strings which hold this universe together.

It's infuriating on a level that is hard to place into words.

Yeah that's the pic I was talking about. You can also find some stats on the number of steam users and I doubt it's a coincidence that the number of users went from about 25 million in 2011 to 65 million in 2013. Exactly the same time frame of Cataclysm. That's when they started hosting a lot more games from all the indie developers. Sure, there's other factors but I guarantee that's one of them.

But yeah, the point made by the OP is completely moot considering catch up mechanics were added at the end of BC with badge gear and the population was still growing.

- - - Updated - - -

Also, add in the evil shareholders and Bobby Kotick and you have undeniable evidence of why LFR has ruined the game. Your picture proves it so.

I still don't get how people blame LFR. I've raided with hundreds of people from 50-500 guilds and no one has had an issue with LFR in terms of it ruining the game for them. Some don't like it because it lets people who, to them, don't "deserve" gear from raids but none of them quit because of it. It doesn't even make sense. Why quit because of added content that in no way impacts the raiding you do personally?

[kaminaris]

I still don't get how people blame LFR. I've raided with hundreds of people from 50-500 guilds and no one has had an issue with LFR in terms of it ruining the game for them. Some don't like it because it lets people who, to them, don't "deserve" gear from raids but none of them quit because of it. It doesn't even make sense. Why quit because of added content that in no way impacts the raiding you do personally?

That is one of the funniest argument I've seen. I have been in same spot, tho I've been raiding in 100-3000 guilds. Nobody gave a single f*** about LFR. I presume it is because some people are self entitled elitist

"why casuals can do raid when they have no skill and don't play as much as I?!?!?!!!!1111oneone"

[Akka]

Failing to answer questions presented to you is a sign that you clearly have no clue what you're talking about and are ready to concede.

There is no question presented, just a string of insults. And this combined with your childish behaviour "I've won ! I've won !" kind of show it's pointless to discuss with you. Come back once you've grown up and maybe it'll go somewhere.

Because it is simply boring to see the same arguments the same thread that are in no way original nor creative way. Just ranting about something that supposedly "hurts" the game while it is doing exactly opposite.

Well, problem is that I can say exactly the same : people claiming that catch-up saved the game are just taking their opinion for truth to begin with, because there is no way to know if it's true or not considering the change was made when WoW was at its peak. So what exactly can be considered an evidence that it was beneficial for the game and not harmful ? Because everything factual tend to show the opposite.

[Alkizon]

kaminaris
"why casuals can do raid when they have no skill and don't play as much as I?!?!?!!!!1111oneone"

But really, why?



Problem, of course, is again confronted with what you mean by “casual”.

No one is trying to rob them of opportunity to raid, only to properly manage their motivation to receive content, because once they solve this "disturbing" moment, all that remains for them is progress (which, as has been repeatedly announced, is just dry numbers without content) and gameplay (which is criticized in each topic, such as class organization system and RPG customization (characteristics/itemization = RNG + scaling + forging + no semantic linkage - so-called "impersonal items, nameless, generated"/professions/(and even if we forget on a second about its social part)), I'd also burn with hot iron current RP style and customization, but not going to drag models here).

Those "elitists", which you are trying to talk about, are in the best position to benefit from current situation, as this allows them to completely ignore that population stratum in game. They can easily replace one "impersonal carrier of characteristics required for them" with another one without any problems and no remorse of conscience. They don't cry, they're glad, they're triumph!.. and maybe you're one of them? In any case, I saw how they repeatedly complained about this, about the “old system”, even in this topic. It hindered them, “social” attachment to organization strongly influenced restriction of their ability to create their “evil deeds”, they just don't take it into account now. No, not those, who are called “elitists” by you, who have everything in perfect order with new system, are dissatisfied.

And now we return to those who should be called casuals... and who should really be called casuals? Are those limited lazy people, who want everything and for free? without any requirements, and just for participation? is it casual? I'm in doubt, but to call them gamers in general... can they better be called... spectators? but why are they here and trying to control/influence game organizing process... for gamers? is it because they feel already as at home in this "seized territory"?

Question, of course, shouldn't be addressed to current public, full of these "elitists" and "spectators", but to devs. But, apparently, they get enough money to not be concerned about this. Apparently because gamers aren't the people for whom it's profitable to make games now... right?

As for catch-up mechanic.

We have already discussed what problems badges have+, what negative sides have forge/RNG items, what nonsense is happening as a result of "seasonal" content&rewards scaling, about anomal growth of ilvl, players' strength, devs' attempts to move from characteristics by cutting out classes' design into pieces and spreading it all over Azeroth. I still don’t see need for such a “broad” topic. Everything is quite simple (by priority) gameplay > content > progress:
1st is necessarily available fully (RPG system: class design - no artificial separation anything here > characteristics = customization/role/content control) >> this part suffered a lot due to incorrect prioritization;
2nd is a necessary motivator, without which game usually turns into a movie, which, without director's and screenwriter's proper approach, will “fail” at box office regardless amount of money spent on “special effects” >> let those, who are more in subject, judge about relevance and adequacy of this part (they lost me completely when they left original style, so I'm not the one);
3rd is element that feeds and prolongs life for 2nd, being at intersection of both previous and in its pure form just inedible without them in principle >> this, as healthy part, is completely lost.

All of them are important, but only within framework of an integral work system, each with its own priority, but with universal/identical requirements for players.

There is nothing (quoted below) wrong with catch-up mechanic, when it's properly organized, yes, it used to be more of socio-economic issue in back days. On the other hand, knowing this, people tried to hold on to each other and help... hold to the game (they didn’t have question or desire to leave the game in a couple of weeks or come after the fact to reaping fruits of the whole expansion, knowing that they don’t lose anything from it, only if instantly for not liking gameplay). It's clear that there're plenty of @$$holes around regardless of the system, but, oddly enough, they live the easiest way in framework of current one. Game wasn't too difficult, but, at the same time, completely easy it wasn't too... and now it's both.

Like this, this, this and this. No?

Or did you just decide to laugh at those who say that it's not there or isn't needed at all?

Items with PvP characteristics, with proper itemization, are partial catch-up-s, yes, but people were laughed at such raiders a little during all time while this system existed. I don't see anything particularly bad. In addition, if they have “unclosed” content (they didn't see old raid, they didn’t make quest chain and other stuff there), means old content remains relevant for them (since pass to next one could require certain item or fulfillment of other conditions), it'll just be slightly easier = faster for them to go through it and mechanics will still be quite dangerous and important.
PvP characteristics benefit PvP, PvE characteristics benefit PvE, characteristics are proper role/force/area control organization.

*stand in fighting stance and waiting for PvE elite come to scream about how they are being killed at outdoor by bad guys, who didn't even "close" base dungeons*

[Neleron]

Catch-up Mechanics are basically cutting old content for new ppl. What's the point of doing old raids when from WQ they are getting 100% better rewards?

[kaminaris]

Well, problem is that I can say exactly the same : people claiming that catch-up saved the game are just taking their opinion for truth to begin with, because there is no way to know if it's true or not considering the change was made when WoW was at its peak. So what exactly can be considered an evidence that it was beneficial for the game and not harmful ? Because everything factual tend to show the opposite.

There has been a lot of evidence thrown you at this thread. Like guild poaching, losing interest in game after returning mid expansion since it required you farm irrelevant content just to get to current slice of "fun". But I guess you choose to ignore it...

Question, of course, shouldn't be addressed to current public, full of these "elitists" and "spectators", but to devs. But, apparently, they get enough money to not be concerned about this. Apparently because gamers aren't the people for whom it's profitable to make games now... right?

Oh the devs ARE concerned about it. At least way more concerned than class design and balance.
And current catch up mechanism is a result of loooooong trail and error run.
They literally tried something new each tier set (except first tier of each expansion).

And you are misunderstanding something. Game is not dead yet because Gamers find something they can enjoy aka any form of challenge.
Ultimately neither catch-up nor titanforge does hinder them. So its a win-win situation.

Gamers needs to know that there are other players playing game so it doesn't feel deserted.
Even if blizz would design it around those 10% top, it just wouldn't live long.
Having said that, current wow lacks real content and we all know it.

[SirCowdog]

There has been a lot of evidence thrown you at this thread. Like guild poaching, losing interest in game after returning mid expansion since it required you farm irrelevant content just to get to current slice of "fun". But I guess you choose to ignore it...

That's because a great deal of that "evidence" is either pure opinion, or non-applicable.

Guild Poaching is almost entirely mitigated by multiple difficulties combined with the parallel progression of M+. That's not to say that poaching or guild hopping doesn't still happen, just that it's not a barrier that prevents people or groups from progression the way it used to be in vanilla/tbc. There are too many tools to very easily find people who want to raid below the Mythic level. And I have serious doubts about the concept of a cutting edge mythic raiding guild recruiting players who are not fully motivated and skilled enough to get themselves raid ready before applying.

Losing interest in the game is purely 100% subjective, because it's describing fun. You can't simply say that only one part of the game is "fun", because fun is not a single thing for everyone. And again, I refer to all the tools even a solo player has at their disposal to get themselves geared and up to speed for the current tier. Besides which, how will a person know if they'd enjoy the content or not if the skip past it entirely?

Ultimately neither catch-up nor titanforge does hinder them. So its a win-win situation.

Both titanforging and catch-up directly undermine the process of progression. Both by skipping players forward to points in progression they didn't earn on their own merit, and by devaluing deterministic goals because completely random chance skips them again to levels of power they didn't aim for.

While it's technically true that these things aren't hindering players, they ARE stealing a lot of value from any sense of accomplishment a player might be seeking from the game.

Gamers needs to know that there are other players playing game so it doesn't feel deserted.

Having said that, current wow lacks real content and we all know it.

So you ensure the game doesn't feel deserted by abandoning content periodically, both by invalidating content previous to catch up, and by the game design relying on disposable, short-term, shallow content? o_O

If you want to encourage players to stay and keep the game feeling active and populating, you have to give them a reason to stick around. The current design is only giving players a month or two of new content each major patch before it's exhausted and played out. The last major content drop was 6 months ago, with a minor release that barely had anything outside of a single raid a full 3 months ago. With 8.2 not even having a release date yet.

Is the content in 8.2 going to last another 6-8 months before 8.3? Even without catch-up mechanics, a player only starting the game NOW would still blow through the available content and be up to speed LONG before then. So I have to ask: If the content is already not lasting hardly long enough in the first place, why are players so intent on skipping it? Do they want to run out of things to do faster or something?

[Alkizon]

kaminaris
Gamers needs to know that there are other players playing game so it doesn't feel deserted.

I see, so gamers are "elite jerks". I'll remember

Friend, whom I asked about short formulation, expressed even more coarsely: "they take into account @$$holes and idiots, because their numbers both are immeasurable and sources are inexhaustible". I think it was said more likely because of some bad mood and didn’t really meant that each of - is, but...

In short, I wrote exactly how I see current situation. You see it even somehow similar, the only difference is in semantics and feeling of perspectives This is at least something.

[Osmeric]

Even in BC, there was a catchup mechanism: welfare PvP gear.

I wonder how this "you have to play all the content sequentially to catch up" could work when PvP is in the game.

[Alkizon]

Even in BC, there was a catchup mechanism: welfare PvP gear.

I wonder how this "you have to play all the content sequentially to catch up" could work when PvP is in the game.

Like this, this, this and this. No?

Or did you just decide to laugh at those who say that it's not there or isn't needed at all?

Items with PvP characteristics, with proper itemization, are partial catch-up-s, yes, but people were laughed at such raiders a little during all time while this system existed. I don't see anything particularly bad. In addition, if they have “unclosed” content (they didn't see old raid, they didn’t make quest chain and other stuff there), means old content remains relevant for them (since pass to next one could require certain item or fulfillment of other conditions), it'll just be slightly easier = faster for them to go through it and mechanics will still be quite dangerous and important.

Good grief, what an incomprehensible word salad.

Could you summarize in 50 words for those of us who don't think you're worth wasting our time on?

PvP characteristics benefit PvP, PvE characteristics benefit PvE, characteristics are proper role/force/area control organization.

*stand in fighting stance and waiting for PvE elite come to scream about how they are being killed at outdoor by bad guys, who didn't even "close" base dungeons*

[Osmeric]

Like this, this and this. No?

Good grief, what an incomprehensible word salad.

Could you summarize in 50 words for those of us who don't think you're worth wasting our time on?

[SirCowdog]

Good grief, what an incomprehensible word salad.

Could you summarize in 50 words for those of us who don't think you're worth wasting our time on?

The point he was making is that despite the existence of "welfare epix" that were easily obtainable through PVP in TBC, they were only entry-level as far as raiding was concerned. IIRC the only reason people used PVP gear in TBC raiding was because their raw stats were just good enough to hold you until you got an actual PVE drop from a raid. And the only reason people ever really used them was because they were vendor bought, and often easier to obtain than waiting for TBCs shitty RNG to grace you with a proper PVE piece of gear.

Regardless, the PVP gear from TBC wasn't intended as a catch-up mechanism. It was more a case of Blizzard not really knowing WTF they were doing, but still trying to mix PVE and PVP.

[Akka]

There has been a lot of evidence thrown you at this thread. Like guild poaching, losing interest in game after returning mid expansion since it required you farm irrelevant content just to get to current slice of "fun". But I guess you choose to ignore it...

Pot, meet kettle. There has been lot of evidence thrown at you showing the exact opposite (like people complaining that catch-up mechanism makes their progression and their gear meaningless, that it destroys any content that is not the latest raid, that they lose fun due to it), but you chose to ignore it.

[MidnyteTV]

There is no question presented, just a string of insults. And this combined with your childish behaviour "I've won ! I've won !" kind of show it's pointless to discuss with you. Come back once you've grown up and maybe it'll go somewhere.

Well, problem is that I can say exactly the same : people claiming that catch-up saved the game are just taking their opinion for truth to begin with, because there is no way to know if it's true or not considering the change was made when WoW was at its peak. So what exactly can be considered an evidence that it was beneficial for the game and not harmful ? Because everything factual tend to show the opposite.

Lol ypu quote a part of my post and leave out the question and claim i didnt ask one? My goodness, you really are sour.

Marcus - 1
Akka - 0

[Twdft]

Good grief, what an incomprehensible word salad.

Could you summarize in 50 words for those of us who don't think you're worth wasting our time on?

I have given up trying to understand Akilzon. Writes a lot o text, seemingly on topic, but most of the time I am unable to understand the actual point they try to make. I wouldn't be surprised if that's a field test using that fake text generator AI.

[MoanaLisa]

Also, add in the evil shareholders and Bobby Kotick and you have undeniable evidence of why LFR has ruined the game. Your picture proves it so.

During the population crash in Cataclysm there were long, long arguments about the millions that had been leaving the expansion supposedly due to the proposal and imminent release of LFR. The idea went that organized raiders were leaving the game in droves because of it. Never mind that about 3X-5X more people left than there ever were organized raiders. I had one poster explain to me that the additional folks were leaving as a sympathy protest. It's an extreme example of it but it never ceases to amaze.

That said if Sturgeon's Law about 90% of everything is crap is applied to this thread, I think the 10% has been of a higher quality than usual this time around.

I keep reminding myself that this board especially over the last few years is down to a relative few people whose minds are not all that open to change, many not playing at all, and that this is an infinitesimal sample comparatively. Some good things surface from time to time and that's great when it happens. All told there are likely less than 400 "regulars" here (if that) in WowGen.

[Forogil]

Even in BC, there was a catchup mechanism: welfare PvP gear.

I have some particular memory of weapons from Arena from TBC.

For catch-up there was also badge-gear at the isle, ZA as a catch-up mechanism, some Ogri'la items, etc.

I wonder how this "you have to play all the content sequentially to catch up" could work when PvP is in the game.

Obviously the proper route is Arena->WSG->AB->AV :-)

[MoanaLisa]

I see I missed something when I gave up on this thread early. I've now read back couple of pages. The last couple of pages on their own might actually be well over that 10% threshold.

Anyway, I'm not going to go back and comment everything, but I'll just add that I've also been thinking about the possibility of separating things to what would essentially be a separate game(s) or at least game-modes that aren't really fully connected the same way they
re now.

I see games like this as ecosystems sitting alongside one another, connected in either trivial or profound ways. That's basically what a theme park is after all. There can be long arguments about what organized raiding should look like: catch-up mechanics, linear progression, whatever. That's more heavily influenced by different factors than the world game needs to be. One is a higher-skill activity requiring co-ordination. The other is a more relaxed, lower-skill activity that must make accommodations for the fact that both tanks and healers while having wildly different damage capabilities vis a vis mobs need to be able to defeat them. I can think of all sorts of complicated ways to do that but I don't know that I believe that there is any inherent value in difficulty past some point at which it becomes subject to diminishing returns and frustration on the part of players. Most players in the world aren't overly fond of their characters dying. I'm not. No one that I know really is. It happens when I don't know the fight well or stop paying attention for some reason. But if you are of average skill, willing to pay attention while you play, learn from mistakes, and not engage in hugely risky play, then you ought to be able to succeed without too many problems.

Raiding (and group content) by its nature is somewhat different requiring multiple roles and generally somewhat more skill the deeper you go into it. And someone is needed to co-ordinate all of that during a fight. There's a lot of room there for stuff to break. And that's part of the fun for some and frustration for others. But it's a completely different sort of game and one that frankly the "world" does not really prepare you for.

After leveling, the pivot between world and organized raiding is LFR. End game for the world path; side game for the organized raiding path and PVP (if there's any interest), ROI-generator for the designers and incentive to keep making good raids.

There's nothing to keep anyone out of anything but the requirements and rewards should differ with each being specific to their own ecosystem. We're two-thirds of the way there anyway with players consciously or unconsciously pushing for more. Some will happily stay in the world and their rewards can be great and bountiful and the content could reflect that. Others will want to just do raiding. They're not wrong to want to do that. And that works for them as well. And those that wish to live in both worlds (or all three if we consider PVP), they can do that and there are clear paths to and through them.

[lllBlackSunlll]

There is none, at least the way it is done now. Because it is outdated, tedious and simply boring.

Quests like those are a lot of fun, but I remember in a live stream they talked about how much work Cataclysm needed to redo the world and that they didn't believe the amount of effort was worth what they got. So I wouldn't count on getting those kinds of quests anytime early one, which sucks because they would really hook players in.

But then it suggests why have any levels at all?
In the case that all of the good content is at max level, we need to level to get to it, and getting there doesn't bring any of the 3 dimensions I mentioned before, then why have levels?
Why not just start a character and get right into the action instead working towards something that exists in the game, gives nothing to the player, then the actual game starts?

I feel this point of view boils down to a black and white solution.
Either we must have no leveling (and levels) or we must be perpetually leveling and blizzard should focus most of their development around that, which they are kind of are at this point.

I'm not sure a black and white approach really works, there are some dimensions a player wants to focus more on, and the leveling scheme should be a way which promotes the three dimensions I mentioned before. Just right now the way we do it is dated, ironically Classic WoW does them kind of well.

To my point, and one I made before, I don't think the solution is that players always want to get right into the action as long as the game presents it well. A long development into the endgame content can be just as enjoyable if also presented well. On top of this, a genre comes into play based on gaming trends, which I talked more about before, so I think you get my point. I just don't think catch-up systems can be pointed as a single-issue or even the mechanics of catch-ups can be described in one way, especially since Blizzard has overly embraced it and has many facets.