Classic WoW Tier sets / offspec gear itemization

[Kaver]

Ehh... just because they changed it doesn't mean it was bad. They've changed plenty of things for the worse.

I was thinking the same thing. Worst argument ever

“Duuh.. Blizzard added LFR so that must be a good change... duuh...”

[Low Hanging Fruit]

If your melee and your willing to swing nightfall your odds can explode upward.

[Pancreatin]

Still raiding as Enhancement #changemymind.

When noone want to invite you to raid you will change it on your own.

[Wilian]

With Tier 1-3 the sets were designed for the main spec of each class: Paladins for healing, etc...

Only T3 was geared towards healing. T1 was melee set geared towards hybrid gameplay (something Blizzard failed to realize even if it was their intent) and T2 was a strong spell damage set with melee stats whapped in, mostly for similiar gameplay goals as T1

[jackofwind]

Hybrid DPS specs get Tier 2.5 anyways.

[Unholyground]

When noone want to invite you to raid you will change it on your own.

Not at all, I am a king among WoW players and they will bow to my whims.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

This. I actually like the itemization of vanilla. Nowadays every item is perfect. No flavor to it. Upgrades are identical in stats just 5% higher values. Makes it very bland.

I guess that's why both TBC and WotLK was a lot more successful than Vanilla, don't get me wrong I love Vanilla and will play the living crap out of it (haven't been invested in live WoW since WoD, and that killed me)... but TBC and WotLK were better games.

[Jurwi]

No it wasnt. It makes sense that items are not perfectly suited to your spec and class. Inperfections makes world more real and imerssive. It is absolute nonsense that every loot drop would have pefect stats for everyone.

Okay, it's good itemization that warriors and paladins have to wear leather because plate items suck. Same with basically every class. It's very immersive that a big bulky knight like warrior is wearing a leather thong for stats. Very, very immersive.

Are you high?

[Nathanyel]

This. I actually like the itemization of vanilla. Nowadays every item is perfect. No flavor to it. Upgrades are identical in stats just 5% higher values. Makes it very bland.

Minmaxxers would like a word with you. "15 iLvls higher but no Haste? GTFO with this crap!!!111"

But actually, yes, an item with a higher itemlevel should be better for you in general.
If you have an issue with WF/TF, then that's another matter.

[Akka]

Itemization was one of the biggest downfalls of Vanilla, there’s a reason it was changed for TBC and never looked back on.

That's actually a good point in Classic. Not everything being optimized is not a problem in itself, and allows for gear variety.
Never understood the reasoning of "gear stat are not minmaxed, it's bad". Bad compared to what, and why ?

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

That's actually a good point in Classic. Not everything being optimized is not a problem in itself, and allows for gear variety.
Never understood the reasoning of "gear stat are not minmaxed, it's bad". Bad compared to what, and why ?

We were specifically talking about tier sets and how they were only for one spec/role. There were a few exceptions (but not in tier sets).
You might think you had a lot of freedom in Vanilla, and you did, but if you were serious then all hybrids were healers, only warriors were tanks and only mage/warlock/warrior and rogue were dps ...hunter being somewhere in the middle (tranq shot bot).
With TBC and WotLK more and more specs were given room in raids, which was better, not the clusterfuck "everyone is equal" like we have had since WoD...
Game balance and opportunity in classic was terrible, it stands as the biggest drawback for me and a lot of people.
A lot of people wanted to raid as ret pala... but they couldn’t.
A lot of people wanted to raid as prot pala... but they couldn’t.
A lot of people wanted to raid as balance druid... but they couldn’t.

[Nathanyel]

That's actually a good point in Classic. Not everything being optimized is not a problem in itself, and allows for gear variety.
Never understood the reasoning of "gear stat are not minmaxed, it's bad". Bad compared to what, and why ?

What variety? While stat budgets had always existed, many armor pieces, with exceptions mostly added in later raids/patches, were simply "Mainstat* and/or Spirit, plus some Stamina" with Sta sometimes eating a lot of the stat budget. While items with heavy Spi or Sta were interesting for Healers or Tanks, respectively, damage dealers had little options other than "hope for trinket X or proc weapon Y to drop".
And weapons were way more interesting for melees/Hunters than ranged casters, who used them mainly as stat sticks until later ones added Spell Damage, with maybe Wands being used while you're oom from casting a few spells.

* Even Mainstats weren't that interesting. Not sure when this changed, but iirc Intellect at one point only gave increased max Mana (technically DPS-relevant, see above) and some spell crit. Agility initially only granted some minor melee crit.

[Akka]

We were specifically talking about tier sets and how they were only for one spec/role. There were a few exceptions (but not in tier sets).
You might think you had a lot of freedom in Vanilla, and you did, but if you were serious then all hybrids were healers, only warriors were tanks and only mage/warlock/warrior and rogue were dps ...hunter being somewhere in the middle (tranq shot bot).
With TBC and WotLK more and more specs were given room in raids, which was better, not the clusterfuck "everyone is equal" like we have had since WoD...

Won't argue that TBC is the best iteration when it comes to mechanics, with much more variety in classes and much better balance while still keeping all classes unique - WotLK was too much into "everyone got AoE and everyone has every tools" already, and the wrecking of threat and mana management made all classes play like a DPS anyway.

[ellieg]

I guess that's why both TBC and WotLK was a lot more successful than Vanilla, don't get me wrong I love Vanilla and will play the living crap out of it (haven't been invested in live WoW since WoD, and that killed me)... but TBC and WotLK were better games.

Better is subjective tho. I enjoyed all 3. And successful is kind of vague. Is it kore successful cause of player count? That could be explained by a few reasons. I'd say it was more "successful" (higher player count) because the game had been out for long enough for hype to spread, and they made it even more casual that expanded it to a larger playerbase.

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Minmaxxers would like a word with you. "15 iLvls higher but no Haste? GTFO with this crap!!!111"

But actually, yes, an item with a higher itemlevel should be better for you in general.
If you have an issue with WF/TF, then that's another matter.

But that's the beauty of vanilla wow. Ilvl isnt king. It isnt this piece is higher so I can ignore what the stats say and just equip it and have it become another meaningless upgrade. You gotta look at the ap, crit, hit, agi or whatever and determine if it's better based on your other gear.

"Should" is just an opinion. No system is objectively better than another, its just about preference

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Okay, it's good itemization that warriors and paladins have to wear leather because plate items suck. Same with basically every class. It's very immersive that a big bulky knight like warrior is wearing a leather thong for stats. Very, very immersive.

Are you high?

Who says immersion is the most important metric for itemization?

At this point in current wow, items should just have 1 number on it. Just like a giant "3". And you can know if a piece is an upgrade or not by seeing if its "4" or not lol

[Belloc]

No it wasnt. It makes sense that items are not perfectly suited to your spec and class. Inperfections makes world more real and imerssive. It is absolute nonsense that every loot drop would have pefect stats for everyone.

It makes absolutely zero sense that warriors would have agility, intellect, or spirit on their gear. This isn't an immersion thing, no matter how much you want it to be. Itemization was horrible in Classic.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

It makes absolutely zero sense that warriors would have agility, intellect, or spirit on their gear. This isn't an immersion thing, no matter how much you want it to be. Itemization was horrible in Classic.

iirc 20 agi is about 1% crit, so agi wasn’t useless at all for STR specs.

[Awsyme]

It makes absolutely zero sense that warriors would have agility, intellect, or spirit on their gear. This isn't an immersion thing, no matter how much you want it to be. Itemization was horrible in Classic.

That, basically.

There's a lot to like about Classic, but there's also a lot it's designers admitted was ignored or broken. They were learning on the job. And part of that learning meant broken specs and terrible items.

(I find it also sort of odd how many people claim they're going to play Vanilla 'their' way. E.g. tank as a bear/paladin etc. People just wanted the most efficient/best versions of classes for their raids. Heck... I remember having to beg a pug group to bring my MC level druid to a strat run. Because they REALLY wanted a priest. Which I totally understood because I didn't have an actual party wide rez... )

[Nathanyel]

iirc 20 agi is about 1% crit, so agi wasn’t useless at all for STR specs.

Yes, but it was obviously not intended for Agi to be this relevant for Plate users.

However, I would have liked it if all physical DPS had used a mix of Str and Agi (and a similar combo for Casters with Int and Spi) for Attack Power and Crit%.

In fact, one spec did have that: Feral gained the full benefit of Agi, Crit% and 1 AP when that was added (or was it always there?) and Str gave 2 AP (presumably because of the overlap with Plate tanks)
Can't really say when exactly that changed, although Cata changed Agi to grant 2 AP, making it better than Str. No idea whether Str still gives AP to non-Plate, it's not shown anymore.
However, during BC I ran Heroic Black Morass a lot, because the end boss could drop a purple gem with Str&Agi - the blue portion of gems was Sta, Spi or MP5 in all other gems, here it was two offensive stats

[Jurwi]

Who says immersion is the most important metric for itemization?

Read the quoted message. There was quite clear implication about immersion regarding itemization.

[anon5123]

but I won't partake in raiding unless "offspecs" of healer classes have a higher acceptance.

Got some bad news for you bruh

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It makes absolutely zero sense that warriors would have agility, intellect, or spirit on their gear. This isn't an immersion thing, no matter how much you want it to be. Itemization was horrible in Classic.

Agi increased crit chance. Spirit increased health regen. Int increased the chance for weapon skillups.

Shoo, retailer.