Baldurs Gate 3

[Mehrunes]

Sort of..?

I think Act 1 just a sets an example by you choosing either side and following up with the logical consequence of that but kind falls apart later on.
Act 2 starts off similar, however even if you do everything the bad guys ask you to, the ending is effectively the same (barring the fate of some side characters).
Act 3 is basically the same.

It's a bit odd how you can make consistently evil choices and characters around expect you to save the world, if you've helped the Absolute Cultists in Act 2, it should be obvious that the player is not interested in saving the world.

Helping the cultists in Act II is more about you ingraining yourself into the cult more in order to infiltrate it better. Though it is indeed annoying that it ends up the same. If anything, you just skip two awesome fights and some story-heavy dialogues.

So whereas Act I's evil choice (which technically can still be easily framed as the pragmatic move to infiltrate the cult, which is what I roleplayed it as in my game) gives you Minthara, the most evil choice (or second most evil choice, depending on how you look at Shadowheart's ascension to Dark Justiciar and its repercussions) gives you squat.

I think for that path there should be more time before your return to Moonrise and the descent to the colony, not less. Some actual fruits of your infiltrating labor, like some additional information to use against Gortash and Orin in Act III. All of that doesn't even have to be quest-heavy. It could be a cinematic or something, with Ketheric revealing stuff to you or whatever.

And an ascension to a Disciple, with an additional unique power that they get (and maybe some extra loot). Given how the Emperor urged you to partake in any tadpole you got your hands on, I don't know why he triggered the protection there and revealed you if you played along with the Cult and went to the altar for your evaluation for a Disciple.

As for Act III, the choices there are rarely in the good vs evil category sans maybe the Tribunal (and it's just one useless elephant sacrificed for the greater good) and post-Orin choice for the Dark Urge (and who wouldn't accept divine help for obviously the greater good). But the lack of responses to the Dark Urge revelations from Act III is kinda glaring.

There is just the quick dialogue with each companion afterwards, where the only one that raised their voice was Shadowheart (and even then she ends with a remark about you being a fellow amnesiac and her being willing to turn a blind eye because of that).

And then nothing. Only dialogue with None Fingers lets you tell her what her intel on you was missing. But if you go to Raphael after Gorthash's coronation? And then steer him towards revealing his salt about how the Chosen raided Mephistopheles' vault while he couldn't manage that? No option to mention "about that..." And there aren't even any remarks from your PC when you read any of the notes and books that clearly reference your past life, like Viconia's intel or Gorthash's journal at his parents' house.

[Hotmail]

Was gonna ask someone eventually about this, because my default playstyle is usually chaotic neutral... just the way I am!

However, I usually attempt an evil playthrough with my follow-up playthroughs. The evil-centric playthroughs tend to be much harder and less rewarding with these sorts of games, and the good-centric playthroughs tend to be easier and more rewarding. Kinda wish the paradigm shifted with BG3, if it's truly the case that the evil path is inferior... wouldn't have to be better than the good, just on par would be good enough.

A bit off-topic but I recently saw an interesting BG1 retrospective on Youtube that went into detail as to why the "evil" path in those games is so thoroughly unrewarding. It had to do with the D&D moral panic of the 80s, where certain religious groups and news outlets accused D&D of fostering satanism, homosexuality, murder, and whatever else they considered "deviant" at the time.

D&D rulebooks, lore, etc. were eventually adjusted to reward "morally good" behavior and gradually phase out evil or demonic roleplay; this was known as the TSR Code of Ethics. Baldur's Gate 1, which was originally going to have a much more complete and rewarding evil route, had to tone all of that content down to secure the D&D license.

I'll leave the video here: https://youtu.be/uGa0dk8-pgE?si=8prXQWHlFO8xlUNU&t=6582. For anyone interested, the link will start you at the relevant chapter.

[Kralljin]

Helping the cultists in Act II is more about you ingraining yourself into the cult more in order to infiltrate it better. Though it is indeed annoying that it ends up the same. If anything, you just skip two awesome fights and some story-heavy dialogues.

I think helping to capture Isobel goes far beyond merely infiltrating, because that also kills the majority of NPC's at the Last Light Inn.

And there aren't even any remarks from your PC when you read any of the notes

Does this even happen *at all* within the game?
Ignoring any notes related to some quest?
I don't recall reading any notes containing some kind of information about a character which you can then bring up in a conversation.

[Nymrohd]

A bit off-topic but I recently saw an interesting BG1 retrospective on Youtube that went into detail as to why the "evil" path in those games is so thoroughly unrewarding. It had to do with the D&D moral panic of the 80s, where certain religious groups and news outlets accused D&D of fostering satanism, homosexuality, murder, and whatever else they considered "deviant" at the time.

D&D rulebooks, lore, etc. were eventually adjusted to reward "morally good" behavior and gradually phase out evil or demonic roleplay; this was known as the TSR Code of Ethics. Baldur's Gate 1, which was originally going to have a much more complete and rewarding evil route, had to tone all of that content down to secure the D&D license.

I'll leave the video here: https://youtu.be/uGa0dk8-pgE?si=8prXQWHlFO8xlUNU&t=6582. For anyone interested, the link will start you at the relevant chapter.

Enhanced Edition adds two more evil NPCs, one of which starts BG2 by asking you to help him crash a wedding and kill everyone and ends with going on a killing rampage on Heaven. And there is a very solid mod that among other things gives Viconia the option to take over Ust Natha and lead the drow against the elves above.

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I think helping to capture Isobel goes far beyond merely infiltrating, because that also kills the majority of NPC's at the Last Light Inn.

Does this even happen *at all* within the game?
Ignoring any notes related to some quest?
I don't recall reading any notes containing some kind of information about a character which you can then bring up in a conversation.

Many times you read something it then lets you refer to it in quest text later. But this usually has to do with more investigative quests, not just additional dialogue.

[Gaidax]

Makes a lot of sense, but i had hoped you'd get more than just a vague hint at the loading screen, which seemed more like random tidbits about the lore.

You can find a book in-game with a story about him told by some traveler who met him, connected the dots and identified him as such. The first question he asked was about the worth of a soul.

As a whole there are quite a few such books in-game that help you connect the dots.

[Arlette]

Finished the game. Really enjoyed it. Game is certainly not a 10/10 goty that people seem to be saying to me, but I had a solid experience and the writing and voice acting were phenomenal. I had some issues with its gameplay (Weird changes from 5e for certain things and not others) and Act 3 performance is kind of in the toliet at certain parts, but I still had fun. I'd give it a 7.5/10.

The one and only thing that actually disappointed me was that I had a bug with Lae'zel's Act 3 quest. After getting the quest from Voss to get the Mallet, the entire questline bugged out for me because I didn't commit to agreeing to Raphael's deal OR deny him. I left it open ended when speaking with him and after I went to the House of Hope, killed him, and took it, Voss bugged out and just kept saying a random line of dialogue to me in the sewers, asking me to follow him.

But he never moved. The plot didn't progress. I could save Orpheus(I was unsure if I was going to but I wanted the option) but freeing him wouldn't let me finish Lae'zel's plot so I just had the Emperor eat his brain. This results in a bizarre ending for Lae'zel where she's happy we stopped the brain but mad that Orpheus dies so she just peaces out. Basically, "Cool we won, but you kinda fucked me because I'm a traitor and now the Prince is dead...bye I guess?"

[LordVargK]

Finished the game. Really enjoyed it. Game is certainly not a 10/10 goty that people seem to be saying to me, but I had a solid experience and the writing and voice acting were phenomenal. I had some issues with its gameplay (Weird changes from 5e for certain things and not others) and Act 3 performance is kind of in the toliet at certain parts, but I still had fun. I'd give it a 7.5/10.

Do you mind giving an example what a 10/10 is for you?

[Arlette]

Do you mind giving an example what a 10/10 is for you?

I could but I dislike giving number ratings in general because its all largely subjective but that's the norm. I'd rather talk about the specifics of what I like and dislike rather than just slapping a number on them. In this regard I don't think its necessary because the question kind of feels a bit leading with whatever I answer being used to disregard what I've said about BG3.

If I was judging the game solely on the writing and voice acting, I'd certainly give it a 10/10. But the gameplay and performance issues of Act 3 reduce it some. As I said, in certain places they tweak the 5e system just enough in some regards but not others.

For example: Berserker Barbarians in BG3 do not experience exhaustion after their rage ends like they do in 5e. In general I like the change, it feels way too punishing in actual 5e. But the game will then also stick with certain abilities or spells or features of classes that just seem too unfun (Like the Berserker thing) but don't change them.

An example I didn't have a problem with in my playthrough with but is one that comes to mind is how in 5e after being revived from 0 HP, you don't get an action n your next turn and in BG3 they keep it. It's an obnoxious rule that I don't think I've seen a single DM ever enforce, whether its with any personal DM I've had (or used when I DMed) or even popular online D&D shows use because it's just overly punishing for no reason.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~I'm reiterating it before and after: this part is completely subjective~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In a lot of situations, I feel like BG3 plays more like a TRPG than a video game D&D. Which is fine. I like TRPGs a lot but a TRPG and D&D are wholly different beasts. And please recognize that this is a COMPLETLEY subjective point here so I'm sure you and others might disagree. But what I mean is that BG3 rewards you and I would say even implies you should go into encounters, seeing exactly what surprises await you (Like surprise additions to fights or enemies doing weird things to the environment you might not realize beforehand) and reloading and doing the fight again with new knowledge. That is decidedly not a thing in D&D, you don't rewind after you see some twist the DM makes.

And yes I understand that its a choice you as the player individually make, but unless you have a particularly mean DM for no reason, usually the DMs are not trying to actively just kill their players as much as they possibly can, which it feels like BG3 does in certain fights. If I'm doing a fight in BG3 and suddenly the game just spawns 5 enemies right next to characters I'm keeping out of melee range without me having any foreknowledge that it's about to happen, that doesn't feel interesting or fun to me. It feels like a video game. That's where the illusion of this just being Dungeons & Dragons breaks for me. And I deduct a bit from the overall score of the game.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~I'm reiterating it before and after: this part is completely subjective~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Again I think the game is great and I sincerely enjoyed all my 140 hours I had in it, but I do not personally find it a 10/10 goty perfection. That's all. If 7.5 feels too low, 8/10 is fine too I guess. I don't really care about the number personally.

[Mehrunes]

I think helping to capture Isobel goes far beyond merely infiltrating, because that also kills the majority of NPC's at the Last Light Inn.

Well, not like your character had Selune in their ear and knew for certain Isobel cannot maintain the barrier from a distance once it's up. And even that aside, doomsday cult and learning its secrets (like why would Ketheric want this specific priest) could warrant sacrificing a mere inn of mostly random travelers.

Does this even happen *at all* within the game?
Ignoring any notes related to some quest?
I don't recall reading any notes containing some kind of information about a character which you can then bring up in a conversation.

Actually, I was referring to your characters just commenting on things they see, like they do to spotting traps. Shadowheart for example comments on one of Viconia's journal being all about her (the moment you just open the desk and before you even read it, in that case). But yes, notes and the like can unlock additional dialogue options. Hell, there are places in Act III where that happens in response to random things you read all the way back in Act I.

[Kralljin]

Many times you read something it then lets you refer to it in quest text later. But this usually has to do with more investigative quests, not just additional dialogue.

As i said, disregarding any notes that are related to quests.

Do you mind giving an example what a 10/10 is for you?

Whether his rating is fair or not, i would argue that any person who gives BG3 as of right now a 10/10 either has not reached Act 3 or thinks that Act 1 and Act 2 make up for Act 3.

Personally, i think the ending itself (or the lack thereof in some instances) knocks down the game at least one point, Act 3 in general simply has both gameplay and story issues in my view.
It doesn't ruin completely ruin the game, but i think 10/10 is a rating that is solely reserved for (nigh) flawless games.

Well, not like your character had Selune in their ear and knew for certain Isobel cannot maintain the barrier from a distance once it's up. And even that aside, doomsday cult and learning its secrets (like why would Ketheric want this specific priest) could warrant sacrificing a mere inn of mostly random travelers.

Yeah but let's be real, capture implies that she either gets knocked out or in some fashion deprived of her abilities.
Even if she somehow manages to maintain the barrier through the capture process, it would be the first thing they attempt to stop once she's at Moonrise, because getting rid off that Barrier means any resistance in that region is gone for them.

The people at Last Light Inn also make it clear that they want to assault Moonrise Towers (which they also do), but that's pointless as long as Ketheric is immortal.
You're essentially trading the good graces of the bad guy for massive aid in the assault on Moonrise.

[Gaidax]

I think BG3 is a 9/10 game.

While I, personally, do not mind Act 3 much given how huge it is - some story wrap ups do feel not on par and the ending for sure has to be extended. They definitely should add some sort of post-ending party bash or some such, similar to what we had with Act 1 Goblins vs Druids wrap-up, but with the city's grandeur.

That's why I also don't want to replay it now, but let it cook for a year+ until Definitive Edition comes along to get a full 10/10 experience. I am sure they will get there.

[Nymrohd]

I think BG3 is a 9/10 game.

While I, personally, do not mind Act 3 much given how huge it is - some story wrap ups do feel not on par and the ending for sure has to be extended. They definitely should add some sort of post-ending party bash or some such, similar to what we had with Act 1 Goblins vs Druids wrap-up, but with the city's grandeur.

That's why I also don't want to replay it now, but let it cook for a year+ until Definitive Edition comes along to get a full 10/10 experience. I am sure they will get there.

Yeah for me it is between 8-9/10 and I think if they commit to fixing the issues that exist, it absolutely can get to a 10/10. And if they support modding it can stay relevant for many years.

That said, I don't give an 8 easily.

[Onikaroshi]

And if they support modding it can stay relevant for many years.

Larian is big into modding, mod tools will likely come out soon after full ps5 release

[Nymrohd]

Larian is big into modding, mod tools will likely come out soon after full ps5 release

Yeah I am hopeful.

[Airlick]

[spoiler]The one and only thing that actually disappointed me was that I had a bug with Lae'zel's Act 3 quest. After getting the quest from Voss to get the Mallet, the entire questline bugged out for me because I didn't commit to agreeing to Raphael's deal OR deny him. I left it open ended when speaking with him and after I went to the House of Hope, killed him, and took it, Voss bugged out and just kept saying a random line of dialogue to me in the sewers, asking me to follow him.

But he never moved. The plot didn't progress. I could save Orpheus(I was unsure if I was going to but I wanted the option) but freeing him wouldn't let me finish Lae'zel's plot so I just had the Emperor eat his brain. This results in a bizarre ending for Lae'zel where she's happy we stopped the brain but mad that Orpheus dies so she just peaces out. Basically, "Cool we won, but you kinda fucked me because I'm a traitor and now the Prince is dead...bye I guess?"

This part of the quest is definitely a mess. I got the Hammer from Raphael and then convinced BOTH Emperor and Voss that I didn't get it. The dialogues made zero sense because you can literally talk to the companions after talking to Raphael and they will react to the decisions, and that's putting aside the fact that Emperor can pretty much read the whole group's minds, so you can't really hide it from him, but even if he didn't read minds, you can still talk to the companions about it and he WOULD know it then. Meanwhile, Lae'zel literally goes "BUT ACKSCHUALLYYYY WE GOT THE HAMMER" when talking with Voss, so even if he was too dumb to get it, the Emperor certainly would.

They really need to change chunks of Act 3 to make it make more sense.

[Nerovar]

They really need to change chunks of Act 3 to make it make more sense.

Will be interesting to see if they deliver. Act 3 needs a lot of work.

[LordVargK]

An example I didn't have a problem with in my playthrough with but is one that comes to mind is how in 5e after being revived from 0 HP, you don't get an action n your next turn and in BG3 they keep it. It's an obnoxious rule that I don't think I've seen a single DM ever enforce, whether its with any personal DM I've had (or used when I DMed) or even popular online D&D shows use because it's just overly punishing for no reason.

I feel if that if you would get an action after a revive (meaning getting helped up, not actually a revivify cast) would pretty much diminish you getting downed and would force the AI to actually kill you to keep the game difficult, which would be an even bigger annoiance. Getting to 0 HP should have some downside. Right now it's pretty easy to help a target up (eg. by throwing a health potion). And I feel bonus actions are pretty valuable, so getting an action AND a bonus action feels too much.

In a lot of situations, I feel like BG3 plays more like a TRPG than a video game D&D. Which is fine. I like TRPGs a lot but a TRPG and D&D are wholly different beasts. And please recognize that this is a COMPLETLEY subjective point here so I'm sure you and others might disagree. But what I mean is that BG3 rewards you and I would say even implies you should go into encounters, seeing exactly what surprises await you (Like surprise additions to fights or enemies doing weird things to the environment you might not realize beforehand) and reloading and doing the fight again with new knowledge. That is decidedly not a thing in D&D, you don't rewind after you see some twist the DM makes.

And yes I understand that its a choice you as the player individually make, but unless you have a particularly mean DM for no reason, usually the DMs are not trying to actively just kill their players as much as they possibly can, which it feels like BG3 does in certain fights. If I'm doing a fight in BG3 and suddenly the game just spawns 5 enemies right next to characters I'm keeping out of melee range without me having any foreknowledge that it's about to happen, that doesn't feel interesting or fun to me. It feels like a video game. That's where the illusion of this just being Dungeons & Dragons breaks for me. And I deduct a bit from the overall score of the game.

I know what you mean, but on balanced difficulty I've had that problem only a handful of times and only in situations, where I made the wrong choices beforehand. In general there are just a few fights I found difficult when playing blind and only a semi-optimized party. And for me that's mostly because I always forget to use consumables. Scrolls and Potions work wonders when facing something unforeseen. And I only remember to use them after a reload and beating the fight. That's a personal problem, the game very much incentivizes to use them.
But I give you one thing: It's bloody annoying, that turn based mode is not global and sometimes some guard on patrol joins the fight out of nowhere.

Again I think the game is great and I sincerely enjoyed all my 140 hours I had in it, but I do not personally find it a 10/10 goty perfection. That's all. If 7.5 feels too low, 8/10 is fine too I guess. I don't really care about the number personally.

I wasn't trying to attack your opinion. There are quite a few things that make BG3 not perfect. I was more interested in your opinion on which games are truely perfect and deserve 10/10. Or rather which game you would rather give GotY, since having a perfect game is pretty much impossible, if 10/10 means "absolutely no flaws" for you. What does a GotY must have in your opinion?

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Whether his rating is fair or not, i would argue that any person who gives BG3 as of right now a 10/10 either has not reached Act 3 or thinks that Act 1 and Act 2 make up for Act 3.

Personally, i think the ending itself (or the lack thereof in some instances) knocks down the game at least one point, Act 3 in general simply has both gameplay and story issues in my view.
It doesn't ruin completely ruin the game, but i think 10/10 is a rating that is solely reserved for (nigh) flawless games.

What are (nigh) flawless games, though? That was my question. I wasn't trying to critizise the rating, each person can have their own opinion. But I can't really think of a game that I had this much fun with. Regardless of ending. Which, really, I'm willing to forgive, given that it took me 100+ hours, which I enjoyed fully, to reach it.

[Rendark]

This game should have been delayed by another 2 months or so.

[Kralljin]

What are (nigh) flawless games, though? That was my question.

I think the problem with that question is that it sets up a game vs. game debate, i could probably name *any* game here and someone would find some criticism about that game.
At which point the entire debate is just going to devolve.

Regardless of ending. Which, really, I'm willing to forgive, given that it took me 100+ hours, which I enjoyed fully, to reach it.

Each to their own, but as i said, i think Act 3 has some story issues in itself even without the ending.
I also think that the ending is a pretty important element in heavily story driven games, because it's critical with what sort of feeling the player "leaves" the game.

[Arlette]

I wasn't trying to attack your opinion. There are quite a few things that make BG3 not perfect. I was more interested in your opinion on which games are truely perfect and deserve 10/10. Or rather which game you would rather give GotY, since having a perfect game is pretty much impossible, if 10/10 means "absolutely no flaws" for you. What does a GotY must have in your opinion?

My short list of current goty's I have personally are Resident Evil 4 Remake, Tears of the Kingdom & Hi-Fi Rush. With Re4 being my current #1.