Baldurs Gate 3

[Heeresman]

I just watched the over an hour long video of Swen Vincke doing a bit of a play through and dam this looks good.
Really seems like a passionate and nice dev and the game play along with voice acting is top notch.

Can't wait for this.

[NineSpine]

The game sold around 1 million thats a niche market.

It sold a million copies in the first TWO MONTHS. It came out in September 2017 and still managed to be the 9th highest grossing PC game that year. You are completely deranged.

They already have much of whats needed already inplace to toggle turn based combat off, players can already move around and cast spells out of combat without needing turns and AI already act on thier own.

If your game switches to a turn based mode as soon as an action is taken that would cause conflict, you don’t program anything to operate in conflict outside of that. You don’t seem to understand even the basics of how software engineering works. Just because a spell can be cast outside of combat does not mean that the entities in The game can completely operate outside of combat. D&D 5e rules are completely incompatible with real time combat. Everything takes 6 seconds. Want to make one attack? That takes six seconds. Want to move, make one attack, and use the hide action as a rogue? That’s six seconds total as well. It doesn’t make any sense in real-time.

A video game is never going to be a true D&D representation no matter what you think.

But a game can use the d&d combat rules, and this does, no matter how much derangement you want to pile on your bizarre argument.

[kenn9530]

It sold a million copies in the first TWO MONTHS. It came out in September 2017 and still managed to be the 9th highest grossing PC game that year. You are completely deranged.



If your game switches to a turn based mode as soon as an action is taken that would cause conflict, you don’t program anything to operate in conflict outside of that. You don’t seem to understand even the basics of how software engineering works. Just because a spell can be cast outside of combat does not mean that the entities in The game can completely operate outside of combat. D&D 5e rules are completely incompatible with real time combat. Everything takes 6 seconds. Want to make one attack? That takes six seconds. Want to move, make one attack, and use the hide action as a rogue? That’s six seconds total as well. It doesn’t make any sense in real-time.



But a game can use the d&d combat rules, and this does, no matter how much derangement you want to pile on your bizarre argument.

When a new game releases the first few months is when it sells the most, 1 million i still a niche market considereing the potential 100s of million of players for RPG genre, GTA 5 sold 15 million in 2017 so that proves DOS2 as a niche market.

Its not a true D&D game no matter what spin you put on it, using a D&D ruleset doesnt make it any more different that another RPG.

[NineSpine]

When a new game releases the first few months is when it sells the most, 1 million i still a niche market considereing the potential 100s of million of players for RPG genre, GTA 5 sold 15 million in 2017 so that proves DOS2 as a niche market.

Its not a true D&D game no matter what spin you put on it, using a D&D ruleset doesnt make it any more different that another RPG.

It uses the Dungeons and Dragons rules.
Wizards of the Coast calls it Dungeons and Dragons.
It’s set in a D&D setting.

One million units in two months, generating the 9th most revenue in all of PC gaming that year, and being the highest grossing independently produced game that year, is an example of wild incredible success.

You can keep pretending that that’s what “niche market” looks like, and you will continue looking like a completely deranged lunatic who is detached from reality. DOS 2 was still on the top 20 games on Steam for 2018, the year AFTER it came out and had ALREADY sold a million copies. It still, three years after release, breaks into the top 50 most played games on Steam.

You simply aren’t dealing with reality. You didn’t realize how successful DOSII was and when confronted with the fact that you are incredibly wrong you decided to double down and become completely delusional. You aren’t fooling anyone. You are embarrassing yourself.

[Loeko]

When a new game releases the first few months is when it sells the most, 1 million i still a niche market considereing the potential 100s of million of players for RPG genre, GTA 5 sold 15 million in 2017 so that proves DOS2 as a niche market.

Its not a true D&D game no matter what spin you put on it, using a D&D ruleset doesnt make it any more different that another RPG.

Millions of owners of Divinity: Original Sin 2 on Steam only and as much PC revenue as Minecraft in 2018, but yeah, let's keep calling that a niche game.

As for your "It's not a true D&D game but I can't explain why", we have absolutely idea where you're trying to go with this. The only thing you said is "Playing on your own without any other interaction" but if you had read about the game, you would know that you can play it with 5 others friends. Of course, it's not the same as a real life D&D session, but Fifa ain't a real life soccer game. Based on your logic, Fifa is not a soccer game, Gran Turismo not a racing game, etc... No matter how you try to put it, BG3 is setting itself as the best D&D adaptation we've ever had.

Finally, for the "majority likes RTWP", tell that to PoE2 and PK, two RTWP cRPGs that were just doing okay until they released turn based modes. cRPGs have never been more popular than since turn based games started coming back. We would not be getting so many cRPGs now if it weren't for the success of DOS 1&2. Turn based revived cRPGs, RTWP gave it a try, failed, adopted turn based too, and here we are.

Wanting to play RTWP is okay, we can understand that, and I would also like to have the possibility to switch between both but it is important to realize that RTWP is, by today standards, nothing more that a comfort mode that requires less input/effort from the player and lowers the depth of the gameplay. It is great when you want to rush fights or avoid having to make hundreds of choices in a fight versus a horde of ennemies, but choosing it over turn based really limits the gameplay and the potential playerbase, as we've seen during the past years.

That said, I still hope that Larian makes a RTWP mode just for comfort and for the nostalgics.

[Mehrunes]

none of those things are assets, If your going to lie atleast try.

But they can't try. Just look at Star Citizen thread. It's a comedy show in there.

[KrayZ33]

A video game is never going to be a true D&D representation no matter what you think.

Well, you are wrong, no matter what you think

[NineSpine]

Millions of owners of Divinity: Original Sin 2 on Steam only and as much PC revenue as Minecraft in 2018, but yeah, let's keep calling that a niche game.

As for your "It's not a true D&D game but I can't explain why", we have absolutely idea where you're trying to go with this. The only thing you said is "Playing on your own without any other interaction" but if you had read about the game, you would know that you can play it with 5 others friends. Of course, it's not the same as a real life D&D session, but Fifa ain't a real life soccer game. Based on your logic, Fifa is not a soccer game, Gran Turismo not a racing game, etc... No matter how you try to put it, BG3 is setting itself as the best D&D adaptation we've ever had.

Finally, for the "majority likes RTWP", tell that to PoE2 and PK, two RTWP cRPGs that were just doing okay until they released turn based modes. cRPGs have never been more popular than since turn based games started coming back. We would not be getting so many cRPGs now if it weren't for the success of DOS 1&2. Turn based revived cRPGs, RTWP gave it a try, failed, adopted turn based too, and here we are.

Wanting to play RTWP is okay, we can understand that, and I would also like to have the possibility to switch between both but it is important to realize that RTWP is, by today standards, nothing more that a comfort mode that requires less input/effort from the player and lowers the depth of the gameplay. It is great when you want to rush fights or avoid having to make hundreds of choices in a fight versus a horde of ennemies, but choosing it over turn based really limits the gameplay and the potential playerbase, as we've seen during the past years.

That said, I still hope that Larian makes a RTWP mode just for comfort and for the nostalgics.

They are adhering pretty close to 5e rules, and in 5e fights don’t last that long. Most fights are over in three rounds in 5e, so a lot of the arguments for the speed and comfort of RTWP don’t really work. These fights are going to be relatively fast.

[FlubberPuddy]

D&D 5e rules are completely incompatible with real time combat. Everything takes 6 seconds. Want to make one attack? That takes six seconds. Want to move, make one attack, and use the hide action as a rogue? That’s six seconds total as well. It doesn’t make any sense in real-time.

Just wanted to clarify in 5e it's a round that takes about 6 seconds and each turn in the initiative order happens within 1 round. So attacks/turns are happening in seconds or milliseconds or whatever.

"The Order of Combat

A typical combat encounter is a clash between two sides, a flurry of weapon swings, feints, parries, footwork, and spellcasting. The game organizes the chaos of combat into a cycle of rounds and turns. A round represents about 6 seconds in the game world. During a round, each participant in a battle takes a turn. The order of turns is determined at the beginning of a combat encounter, when everyone rolls initiative. Once everyone has taken a turn, the fight continues to the next round if neither side has defeated the other."

https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/ph...eOrderofCombat

But yeah it really doesn't make sense in real-time.

[Endus]

Have you not seen the gameplay, its a carbon copy of DOS2 with the occasional dice roll for certain events and a little more focus on choices for the enemies, the D&D rules dont change the gameplay at all.

If you can make this argument for DOS2 to BG3, you can make the same argument for DOS 1 from BG 2/TOB. DOS and Pillars of Eternity were both simultaneous attempts to recapture the isometric RPGs of the past, particularly Baldur's Gate. The similarities were baked in from the beginning.

BG3 is not even a true D&D game just has a few elements of it and the rest is handled in the background.

So, exactly like BG 1 and 2, then.

[NineSpine]

Just wanted to clarify in 5e it's a round that takes about 6 seconds and each turn in the initiative order happens within 1 round. So attacks/turns are happening in seconds or milliseconds or whatever.

"The Order of Combat

A typical combat encounter is a clash between two sides, a flurry of weapon swings, feints, parries, footwork, and spellcasting. The game organizes the chaos of combat into a cycle of rounds and turns. A round represents about 6 seconds in the game world. During a round, each participant in a battle takes a turn. The order of turns is determined at the beginning of a combat encounter, when everyone rolls initiative. Once everyone has taken a turn, the fight continues to the next round if neither side has defeated the other."

https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/ph...eOrderofCombat

But yeah it really doesn't make sense in real-time.

Yeah, it all breaks down when you consider that every character is capable of a large number of things in one turn if they are discreet. Movement, action, bonus action, and reaction... but in most cases everyone just takes an action. This would make for really bizarre outcomes when made real time.

[Endus]

Yeah, it all breaks down when you consider that every character is capable of a large number of things in one turn if they are discreet. Movement, action, bonus action, and reaction... but in most cases everyone just takes an action. This would make for really bizarre outcomes when made real time.

Just the existence of Reactions alone almost warrants a turn-based approach. 2e didn't have them at all, from what I remember, but 3.X did, and 5e's retained it (adjusted considerably). Something happens when it's not your turn, and you can react to that in that moment. Enemy casts a spell? Cast Counterspell! Enemy hits you in the face? Cast Shield! Enemy tries to run away? Opportunity attack!

You can't automate these things because they all use resources. If nothing else, they use your Reaction; you generally can only make one Reaction before your next turn comes around. So maybe you don't want to Opportunity Attack the minion that runs away, you want to save it to spank the Big Bad. Or maybe hold onto it in case you need to use Shield or something. It's a choice you have to make in the context of that moment, and trying to handle that in real-time would basically not be feasible or practical.

[DemonDays]

An engine isn’t an asset. Tons of games use the Unreal Engine. Are they all the same?

Maybe I didn't word what I was trying to say correctly.

Most of what I have seen so far looks like it is cut and paste straight out of DOS2. It could be the same game. Just with a few different areas and assets.

They need to make the art style, models etc more distinct.



I'm not complaining. Just nitpicking. I'm a long time Forgotten Realms fan. BG1 and 2 fan. DOS2 was one of, if not, the best RPG I've ever played.

[Jastall]

The existence of trivial fights where you just use the same actions over and over again is evidence of bad design. That’s why no such fights exist in DOSII. I don’t expect them to exists in this game either.

I disagree with that. In Act 1 maybe, but come Act 2 and beyond a lot of non-boss fights become quite easy and formulaic IMO, while boss fights only become cheesier and cheesier. And that's without running a build that destroys the game's balance. Act 3 in particular was bad about this, I very easily creamed everything that wasn't a story boss and even the final fight was easy.

Not that I disagree with the premise, but balancing the game so that every fight is meaningful is very hard, and while turn-based offers a lot of advantages the mop-up once you've basically won the fight is not one of them, and is also a bit of an issue in games like XCOM which I otherwise love to death.

[NineSpine]

Maybe I didn't word what I was trying to say correctly.

Most of what I have seen so far looks like it is cut and paste straight out of DOS2. It could be the same game. Just with a few different areas and assets.

They need to make the art style, models etc more distinct.



I'm not complaining. Just nitpicking. I'm a long time Forgotten Realms fan. BG1 and 2 fan. DOS2 was one of, if not, the best RPG I've ever played.

You’re not wrong. I just would rather this than difference for the sake of difference. This style works and looks good. Don’t fix what isn’t broken.

- - - Updated - - -

I disagree with that. In Act 1 maybe, but come Act 2 and beyond a lot of non-boss fights become quite easy and formulaic IMO, while boss fights only become cheesier and cheesier. And that's without running a build that destroys the game's balance. Act 3 in particular was bad about this, I very easily creamed everything that wasn't a story boss and even the final fight was easy.

Not that I disagree with the premise, but balancing the game so that every fight is meaningful is very hard, and while turn-based offers a lot of advantages the mop-up once you've basically won the fight is not one of them, and is also a bit of an issue in games like XCOM which I otherwise love to death.

I should have been clearer maybe. It’s not that every fight is hard or complex. It’s that you don’t go to old areas to grind out levels by fighting respawning trivial encounters. Every fight happens exactly one time per play through in DOS2.

The issue I was responding to is the idea that there should be an automated mode for when you are blasting through trivial fights like that. While the fights at many points in DOS2 may be easy, they are still unique encounters and not trivial, Grindy, repeating content.

[DemonDays]

You’re not wrong. I just would rather this than difference for the sake of difference. This style works and looks good. Don’t fix what isn’t broken.

- - - Updated - - -



I should have been clearer maybe. It’s not that every fight is hard or complex. It’s that you don’t go to old areas to grind out levels by fighting respawning trivial encounters. Every fight happens exactly one time per play through in DOS2.

The issue I was responding to is the idea that there should be an automated mode for when you are blasting through trivial fights like that. While the fights at many points in DOS2 may be easy, they are still unique encounters and not trivial, Grindy, repeating content.

It's not exactly Dungeons and Dragons or even Forgotten Realms though.

The character models etc all look very "Divinty".

I just think if they had done more to differentiate the world, UI, art style and general samey gameplay then they wouldn't have got as much backlash from the initial reveal.

[Jastall]

You’re not wrong. I just would rather this than difference for the sake of difference. This style works and looks good. Don’t fix what isn’t broken.

- - - Updated - - -



I should have been clearer maybe. It’s not that every fight is hard or complex. It’s that you don’t go to old areas to grind out levels by fighting respawning trivial encounters. Every fight happens exactly one time per play through in DOS2.

The issue I was responding to is the idea that there should be an automated mode for when you are blasting through trivial fights like that. While the fights at many points in DOS2 may be easy, they are still unique encounters and not trivial, Grindy, repeating content.

Oh sure, I can agree with that, but that can happen with any combat system. For instance I don't think Doom Eternal has many filler or insignificant fights (the platforming is something else...) and it's an entirely different genre of game.

I'm fine with BG3 being turn-based despite the previous games not being, because Larian is good at it. I'm less fine with the art style and what I've seen of the writing, because I don't think Larian are good at those. Just my two cents.

[Kyanion]

Just the existence of Reactions alone almost warrants a turn-based approach. 2e didn't have them at all, from what I remember, but 3.X did, and 5e's retained it (adjusted considerably). Something happens when it's not your turn, and you can react to that in that moment. Enemy casts a spell? Cast Counterspell! Enemy hits you in the face? Cast Shield! Enemy tries to run away? Opportunity attack!

3.5 started to put in a system that I think ended up more of a variant rule, if I remember 3.5 was more about AoO than spells being reactionary. 3.5 had other things you can do like readying an action that was much better than 5th's readying an action to use as your reaction but with limited things you can do mess. 4th edition was big in having reactions and 5th continued that trend for sure just with a twist for ease of play.

[Endus]

It's not exactly Dungeons and Dragons or even Forgotten Realms though.

The character models etc all look very "Divinty".

I just think if they had done more to differentiate the world, UI, art style and general samey gameplay then they wouldn't have got as much backlash from the initial reveal.

Dungeons and Dragons has a vastly wide art palette to pick and choose from.

Let's be clear; this is canonical, official D&D design;



So is this;


D&D art runs the entire gamut, and some of it is truly terrible. There is not one canonical "look" for D&D, not even for the Forgotten Realms specifically. As long as they put class D&D monsters into the game, like beholders and mind flayers (and we KNOW the latter are gonna be in there), it's gonna look like D&D.

[burek]

It's not exactly Dungeons and Dragons or even Forgotten Realms though.

The character models etc all look very "Divinty".

I just think if they had done more to differentiate the world, UI, art style and general samey gameplay then they wouldn't have got as much backlash from the initial reveal.

Or if they have simply done more to differentiate the name of the game, they wouldn't have gotten any backlash at all.