I have some hope now where there was none

[rainhard]

Really hyped for the stances comeback for warriors but i have mixed feelings of mage specs having a small amount of abilities from each spec, i really liked how each spec was a mini class different from each other but on the other hand it feels great being a semi hybrid spec too.

[Nathasil]

And i don't believe that stances were ever that complicated.
Point was just, in PvE, you're not using them, you sit in your designated stance and that's it.

Even Stance dance for Berserk rage wasn't that difficult.
Let alone be an issue in the current raid enviroment, any boss that fears the tank or raid would have its fear as mythic only ability because it would require a specific class, also Tremor is a thing.

Stances are a lot like Druid forms, outside of maybe one or two situations, you spent most of your time in the form of your spec while doing PvE.

This is to some extent the nature of this group / raid based PvE content in WoW, i'm feeling more like playing a Paladin when i play Uther in HotS or Omniknight in DotA, they nailed the fantasy of a Tanky Melee support far better than WoW ever did.

And that has nothing to do with the class design of BfA, it's just that you're funneled into a given role, that being dps, thus any other factors lose relevance.



Probably, but then again, be careful what you wish for, people want buttons, people get buttons.

There is a world of difference between "I want those buttons back" and "I want those buttons back but in a more useful version".

This does not really have anything to do with PvE/PvP...it has to do something with no-CC vs CC. If mobs in dungeons/raids used as much CC abilities as they did in the past PvE players would sure as hell use their class tools to break them. There is no reason why a Mob cannot cast polymorph on you and you being a druid-healer shift into cat-form to avoid it. None. This really is only about the design of PvE....it is not about "something PvE just cannot possibly be"

---

On the broader topic: I hate to be that guy...but i fear the train has left the station for the future of retail WoW. The main reason for that is not the "disconnect" of the devs..or "lack of ideas" or supposedly "incompetence" or even the players simply being worn out by the same game after 15 years, no. For me the main reason is that WoW retail dev has to consider the shop with whatever they do.

Each major new feature which players actually request must be twisted in a way to generate more shop income. Take Allied Races for example. A feature a lot of players genuinely asked for for years on end. What does Blizzard do? They twist and corrupt it into something that only serves to promote boost+race change sells on the shop and nothing else. They took an idea which could have been awesome...and turned it into something shit, just because it had to be monetized.

If they ever do introduce real player housing you can bet your ass that certain parts of it will be "indirectly" connected to shop services as well. Want that special decoration for your pool area? Well, sure thing, but that can only be unlocked by a max-level goblin Shaman. Or you want that special plant? No problem, pal...but you need to have a max level Night Elf druid to unlock it. They could easily wall off housing features behind having certain toons at max level and it would drive people into the shop once again.

That's why i have no real hope for the future of retail, currently.

[Soon-TM]

I like to see Ion acknowledging that there is room for improvement in current class design, that making each spec into a "mini class" of sorts can be counterproductive to the player's experience and that they are looking for inspiration in older versions of the game.

I will believe it when I see it though.

[Kralljin]

While it wasn't some hardcore challenge, it was enough to make a big difference in PvP and even in PvE.

It really wasn't in PvE.
Like, the situations were a Dps Warrior would actually use Def stance and make "a big difference" just never happened, especially later on because without proper talents to improve def stance, the thing kinda sucked.

They were neat to play around with but that's it, they simply were not a big factor of Warrior gameplay in PvE, despite what they actually implied.

People have creative minds, they will most probably find place for it somewhere.

That matters shit unless Blizzard either tunes those abilities (in)correctly or simply doesn't put in situations where they are useful.

Take Tremor totem, if your primary focus was raiding, that spell was basically rotting on your bar during Wotlk - WoD, because there were barely any encounters that involved fear effects.

Situational spells aren't worth shit if the situation isn't given.

Like, if Blizzard gives me Healing Stream totem back...then what? Unless it's kinda strong tuned for Ele / Enhance, what's the deal?

If mobs in dungeons/raids used as much CC abilities as they did in the past PvE players would sure as hell use their class tools to break them.

Quite honestly, i don't recall the game ever throwing much CC your way in PvE, at least not what i've also seen in M+ in BfA as well.

[Aleksej89]

The part about class design is THE BEST WoW news i have heard since WoD released.

Please return WoW classes to having the rich arsenal of abilities like they had in MoP era.

[ManiaCCC]

It really wasn't in PvE.
Like, the situations were a Dps Warrior would actually use Def stance and make "a big difference" just never happened, especially later on because without proper talents to improve def stance, the thing kinda sucked.

While tanks sometimes switched to different stance to do something. I still count it as "better than now" so ..

They were neat to play around with but that's it, they simply were not a big factor of Warrior gameplay in PvE, despite what they actually implied.

I was playing Warrior in BC, and I actually enjoyed it. Something what is not "big" factor for you was quite big factor for me. Again, I believe you are hugely underestimating power of stance dancing even in normal situations.

Take Tremor totem, if your primary focus was raiding, that spell was basically rotting on your bar during Wotlk - WoD, because there were barely any encounters that involved fear effects.

Yea, I know PvE encounters in WotLK and later were joke but it was still powerful tool in PvP. Does it really take so much space in spellbook it couldn't be saved at least for these people, who actually used it in many situations?

Again, designing class around PvE retards and "fairness" in arenas is why we are where we are - super shallow classes and each one designed in basically same way just with different colors.

It really wasn't in PvE.
Like, if Blizzard gives me Healing Stream totem back...then what? Unless it's kinda strong tuned for Ele / Enhance, what's the deal?

Flavor mostly? Also slow ticking heal for whole group while may not be super impactful, you would find use for that. It was used before, it would be still used now.
Every player can choose, what skills will be put onto skill-bar. You don't need to use everything if you don't want to. But there are people more creative than you so they may actually see value in it.

I think you are looking at everything from different perspective. You see WoW as just some min-max simulator, where only one situation exists, PvE raid boss, and everything outside of these 5 abilities is useless. And congratulation, modern wow is designed for you.

[Nerovar]

Ions video on class design


I am delighted to see them actually finally publicly acknowledge they also are not happy with the state of classes, i won't get ahead of myself in hoping for miracles in 9.0 because ultimately i cannot see them scrapping voidform or anything that would make me enjoy my class again, however the fact they are now in agreement and openly talking about making classes actual classes again and specs being actual specialisations of a class rather than a "mini class" does give me hope.

I am slightly worried however that blizzard being blizzard these days will fail hard on this and we will see a big imbalance of some classes or specs seeing total revamps or return of much needed abilities that were removed while others have to endure another spriest shaman "that's gonna have to wait for a patch new expansion" fiasco like bfa.

I just cannot see them doing what needs done for a fair amount of classes (at least the ones i used to enjoy playing before the garbage of legion and bfa) that to be brutally honest require around 2/3 or more of their talent tree to actually go back to being baseline to make the class feel good. Unless they said fuck it at the start of BFA and decided on this back then so they are currently working on that right now (which could explain the lack of changes we normally see) and it is their top priority to overhaul every class and spec to bring them back to enjoyment levels we haven't saw for a number of years i cannot see them being able to achieve it before time for next expansion. It coming from Ion just feels like hollow lawyer marketing talk to keep people from losing all interest entirely.

But still, there is now hope where there was once none.

I feel you. What Ion said about class design really resonated with me. It seems like they're actually listening to the community. We'll see how it pans out.

[oplawlz]

It really wasn't in PvE.
Like, the situations were a Dps Warrior would actually use Def stance and make "a big difference" just never happened, especially later on because without proper talents to improve def stance, the thing kinda sucked.

They were neat to play around with but that's it, they simply were not a big factor of Warrior gameplay in PvE, despite what they actually implied.

If you weren't switching between battle and berserker stance in vanilla pve you were doing everything wrong.

[h4rr0d]

I feel you. What Ion said about class design really resonated with me. It seems like they're actually listening to the community. We'll see how it pans out.

Oh, they are always listening. They just don't act on it most of the time, because we think we do, but we don't.

[Boricha]

I sincerely hope that they are able to restore the classes to the works of art that they once were, but I can't put much faith in the current WoW team to do so. I'll be pleasantly surprised if they do so.

[Craaazyyy]

They butchered specs in 7.0, then butchered again in 8.0, then they promise to maybe change something for good in 9.0. That's 4 full years of atrocious class design and people still pay money to play this?

they really started to truly butcher shit in WoD tho

[MoanaLisa]

To be fair, PvP is and always has been an afterthought in WoW until this expansion kind of/aside from a few bones thrown here and there each expansion.

It's an afterthought they keep designing and redesigning because if they can find a way to make it appealing to everyone it's easy content for not very much effort. The big blind spot there is that there is no PVP design I'm aware of other than big army clashes that makes me want to do PVP. I'm perfectly good with city defense but any sort of organized PVP is not anything I want to do. I don't care about ratings, I don't play WoW to be particularly competitive with anyone or in anything.

They need to stop designing the game to the lowest common denominator.

Designing the game to a low common denominator is how the game was and is as successful as it is now.

===========

A careful listen to Ion's presentation doesn't reveal a whole lot new going on here.

There's a perceptual problem that no one seems to want to address. Nearly all "player solutions" to issues involve looking backward. Developers look forward. Their view of game systems is necessarily on where it's going, not where it's been. Otherwise they're just repeating stuff. In fact that's a big issue with BfA: It repeats a lot of system stuff from Legion that was popular then but tired now after Legion. They certainly could slow the pace of change a bit and I think they need to. But that's not going to solve the problems that infest the game now.

[Kralljin]

Something what is not "big" factor for you was quite big factor for me.

Then that's subjective.

Again, designing class around PvE retards

And designing classes around PvP retards would be a better idea?

Yea, I know PvE encounters in WotLK and later were joke

I'm starting to believe you're one of those people that live inside this "Vanilla / TBC was super difficult" bubble.

Flavor mostly? Also slow ticking heal for whole group while may not be super impactful, you would find use for that. It was used before, it would be still used now.

When i press a button, i actually want that it does something noticeable.

If you weren't switching between battle and berserker stance in vanilla pve you were doing everything wrong.

The curse of people that join discussions midway without reading previous posts, oh well.

[potis]

It really wasn't in PvE.
Like, the situations were a Dps Warrior would actually use Def stance and make "a big difference" just never happened, especially later on because without proper talents to improve def stance, the thing kinda sucked.

They were neat to play around with but that's it, they simply were not a big factor of Warrior gameplay in PvE, despite what they actually implied.

The reality is they were changed over the period multiple times and they were causing problems.

Problems in the sense, the better players simply macroed everything required and the button did everything since "Out of global cooldown" buttons, and the bad players would sit in Defensive Stance and grab aggroo of other terrible tanks and cause problems.

Same as many Paladins had their threat buff on and sort of similar things.

Therefor they were irrelevant to exist for the good players, and a problem for the terrible side of players but it makes the terrible players believe there are many choices and things to do, what can you do.

I still am gonna repeat it, anyone crying about ability pruning seriously is some sort of extra casual or someone that believes dying at Battlegrounds to someone overgearing you is fun because you will eventually be the one overgearing a few to fill powerful.

Hopefully they wont fuck it up much.

[seleri]

Warrior stance dance was never that interesting to me and I say that as someone that has raided as a warrior since Classic.

I really enjoyed the WoD paladin seal swapping though, at least I think it was WoD. I didn't use a macro like most people seemed to and it was actually fun to manage them.

[clevin]

you had me all the way up to talent trees, everyone played the exact same talents.

Not really. Or rather, yes for competitive raiding but in TBC I had a spec that crossed specialization lines so I specced into the ability to use swords but also a lot of sub for Hemorrhage, Shadowstep, etc. Why? farming but also PVP. Why swords? Because I had far better swords than daggers.


Your line of argumentation ignores that some people did things like this, often. No, competitive raiders didn't... they did tend to use cookie cutter builds. But *not everyone is a competitive raider*, a point that your argument ignores.

Finally, the annoying thing about now vs then is that we've lost the choice. With old trees, you COULD spec cookie cutter... or you could spec something custom, taking talents from 2 or more trees.

[Biomega]

When has a forced crossover of PvP and PvE *ever* worked out well? People who like both like both. But you think that forcing someone to do content they hate in order to excel at the content they love is a good idea? You think me bumbling about in a BG without a clue makes it a good experience for other people?

The whole "you must play OUR way!" meme is getting out of hand, Blizzard.

[clevin]

I still am gonna repeat it, anyone crying about ability pruning seriously is some sort of extra casual...

Well, fuck then, let's just show how big our balls are and have a single button, Attack. I mean, if people who 'cry about pruning' are causal then people who want everything pruned must be elite, right?

[potis]

Well, fuck then, let's just show how big our balls are and have a single button, Attack. I mean, if people who 'cry about pruning' are causal then people who want everything pruned must be elite, right?

We have been through this before multiple times clevin.

Its not about casuals or elites, its about reality, yes there has been ability pruning, after you take the crying away its 90% irrelevant pruning.

And for better or worst as i said above, the people crying about ability pruning the most cant even press that 1 button you are mentioning correctly, i am 100% certain someone would probably fail and break his finger while doing so.

And as i said, at least with the basic pruning they did, you dont have, quick example, Warlocks doing 5% of what they should be doing, instead they are doing 20%.

My "data" is just my personal observation whenever i level a new alt and spend a few hours in LFR, i dont even understand what ability pruning when 95% of the people i meet those few hours, cant even have 90% activity time during combat, and if you arent sure what that is, it means people are literally not pressing anything for 10 seconds every 100 seconds during a boss fight.

[lunethzero]

Gonna need proof first b0ss. Going by Blizzards track record alone they have done this and fucked up numerous times.