2023-2024 NBA Thread

[xskarma]

Holy crap. I was rooting for Pop and the Spurs to land the no. 1 pick to get Pop coaching Wembanyama and launch a new great era of Spurs basketball, and it actually happened. So chuffed, even if it cost Celtics minor draft position in the 2nd round.

[Crissi]

nah, Pop wont retire until he is physically and mentally unable to do it anymore. He loves coaching, and he loves developing the young guys. Also keeps him busy, which for a widower is a must

[xskarma]

I think the answer is that the successful style of play is determined by the outliers. When Shaq is in the league, centers seem important. Without Shaq, you can have Durant effectively playing center in the finals against a team whose biggest player was often Lebron.

After LeBron was drafted and ascended there was a decade long run on wings that could be the next LeBron. Same with Curry leading to a LOT of teams trying to find the next amazing shooter guard.

None of it succeeds obv, but the style of play that evolves around those players and the counters against those players often endure and get embedded in the fabric of x's and o's and tactics and coaching decisions. Same thing for what makes those players successful enduring. There's a still often run play named for Allen Iverson, for instance. Legacies endure in that respect.


So I have no doubt that when the next expert shooting and passing big man comes around, we will be equipped tactically to handle them better and they won't QUITE run amok like Jokic is right now. Can only break the mold once.

Wemby has a chance to do that in his own way too though, btw.

[xskarma]

the next 10 good centers got drafted and said “uh actually I’m a power forward”

I mean, players STILL do that. If you listen to AD, Al Horford, Bam, Marvin Bagley, 7 foot something BOL BOL, Kevon Looney, Larry Nance Jr, KAT, and Robert Williams, they are ALL (Power) Forwards.

There's a stigma about playing Center, and the pay and public opinion on the position reflect that.

[ProphetFlume]

Lebron with 31 at the half. Yes, it's very long odds, but I don't think either series is completely over yet.

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Well that post has aged like milk already.

Idk it was close until the end. My friend kept saying lebron would give up this game, then this half, then he stopped replying. By this point I expected them to lose but at least they didn’t Celtic it.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

Denver and Miami are two teams on a mission and I look forward to these Finals.

[ProphetFlume]

Nuggets gonna have such a long break they’ll forget they’re still in the postseason.

If a team was going to come back down 3 I would’ve picked the lakers 10 out of 11 times.

[Pendulous]

Something I noticed about Jimmy Butler's jump shot. You can immediately tell it's a miss because it has no arc. All of his shots barely rise, but the worst ones don't even move an inch. He's missing a lot in the playoffs with shots like that.

[ProphetFlume]

All that just to lose game 7

[StillMcfuu]

Who yall got?

I was ironically the only person saying the Celtics - Heat series wasn't over when they were down 3/0 but everything was Heat-Nuggets. Celtics have to be the streakiest team to ever play, they either don't show up or win almost easy.

I would love for the Heat to win this, but I think the Nuggets will do what they've been doing, and expose every weakness opposing teams have. Bam on Joker sounds interesting but I also think he's leveled up his game to the point where the defender doesn't matter. I don't know who the Heat can throw at him as a "secondary" to leave Bam to stay protecting the rim. It's probably going to be Jimmy. Nuggets are deep and with their passing whatever adjustments that get made to slow down one player will just leave someone else open and the Nuggets have shown they will find that open player.

I can't wait to watch this series... that's really all there is to say. I want both teams to win. Joker needs to continue my prediction from before the season that he would lose the MVP and win the Chip and be crowned MVP next season no matter how he plays. That and I want to see the Nuggets win period. And the Heat, well Jimmy needs his chip, I think his legacy is 100% cemented right now, he's a HoF and going to be considered one of the greatest playoff performers of all time, but if Jimmy wins a chip... I mean this will be way up there in championships. I've seen it floated as Dirck with the Mavs-esque.

[ProphetFlume]

Probably Nuggets but I expect the Heat to put up a fight, they play best with that underdog mentality.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

Who yall got?

I was ironically the only person saying the Celtics - Heat series wasn't over when they were down 3/0 but everything was Heat-Nuggets. Celtics have to be the streakiest team to ever play, they either don't show up or win almost easy.

I would love for the Heat to win this, but I think the Nuggets will do what they've been doing, and expose every weakness opposing teams have. Bam on Joker sounds interesting but I also think he's leveled up his game to the point where the defender doesn't matter. I don't know who the Heat can throw at him as a "secondary" to leave Bam to stay protecting the rim. It's probably going to be Jimmy. Nuggets are deep and with their passing whatever adjustments that get made to slow down one player will just leave someone else open and the Nuggets have shown they will find that open player.

I can't wait to watch this series... that's really all there is to say. I want both teams to win. Joker needs to continue my prediction from before the season that he would lose the MVP and win the Chip and be crowned MVP next season no matter how he plays. That and I want to see the Nuggets win period. And the Heat, well Jimmy needs his chip, I think his legacy is 100% cemented right now, he's a HoF and going to be considered one of the greatest playoff performers of all time, but if Jimmy wins a chip... I mean this will be way up there in championships. I've seen it floated as Dirck with the Mavs-esque.

Denver in 5.

[Pendulous]

I figure Denver will win it, but I also think it will be closer than people expect. Zombie Heat does not die easily.

That Jokic and Murray combo though, holy crap.

[StillMcfuu]

So the heat are shooting 37% with only 2 free throw attempts with 6 min to go, after torching the Celtics for an entire series. I wish I had an explanation but this doesn’t make much sense to me.

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Hey I said that I didn’t think the series was completely over too! But yeah Nuggs have this.

Jokic is like Steph Curry - a guy who doesn’t fit the traditional superstar mold but basically broke the system so thoroughly that his weaknesses are tolerable. Jokic is slightly different from Steph in that Steph was basically transcendent in one skill, and Jokic has two - he’s an incredible passer and his midrange accuracy is ridiculous. Not saying he’s better than Curry, it’s just a different flavor where Curry absolutely overwhelms with scoring and Jokic gets a similar result with less shooting volume and more passing.

The Heat have never felt like a real champ contender to me - they’re the team that beats pretenders and loses to the real thing. But who knows, they did get this far.

Agree, Jokic is very Curry-esque where he makes you rework your defense and Malone just adjusts the next quarter and completely unravels whatever you may have figured out. If anything I'd say Denver is a more perfect GS offense. Like GS when Draymond is on his game and you can't leave him alone at the top of the key, but you also don't have personnel to cover everyone because Curry is running around stretching your switches thin. Jokic is way more dangerous in that he can shoot from everywhere and you can't even stunt on him cause he will find that open player just through his height, forget the fact he is an all-time passer. That's not to even say that Jokic is the only great player. Murray is great and getting better yearly, Gordon is unlocked with Jokic around, MPJ is getting better and really does have a solid 3 and D game (could be the next Klay, but better just through pure athleticism if nothing else improves.)

Denver looks like a super team even though we are being told they don't exist.

[StillMcfuu]

It's wild that there were 2 triple doubles from the same team, in the same game in the finals. Triple doubles are very uncommon in the finals. There have only been 48 in the history of the game, cut that list down to less than 30 if your name isn't James or Magic. Unsurprisingly the list is a who's who of players, many of them prototypes for the stretch wing position less players that is the modern nba, Pippen, Bird, Durant, Barkley... Jimmy Buckets has 2 from his only other Finals appearance, Jokic has 2 in 3 games, which is incredible. Draymond leads the Warrior dynasty with 3. LeBron is on top with 11, Magic is two with 8, and to give an idea to the rarity of this, Green is number 3 with 3.

[xskarma]

It's wild that there were 2 triple doubles from the same team, in the same game in the finals. Triple doubles are very uncommon in the finals. There have only been 48 in the history of the game, cut that list down to less than 30 if your name isn't James or Magic. Unsurprisingly the list is a who's who of players, many of them prototypes for the stretch wing position less players that is the modern nba, Pippen, Bird, Durant, Barkley... Jimmy Buckets has 2 from his only other Finals appearance, Jokic has 2 in 3 games, which is incredible. Draymond leads the Warrior dynasty with 3. LeBron is on top with 11, Magic is two with 8, and to give an idea to the rarity of this, Green is number 3 with 3.

I think most of the problem there is just the sheer difficulty in even GETTING to the Finals. Even the very best players only had a couple of Finals games. And then there's the higher level competition making it harder to get a T/D.

There's also the problem that T/Ds get held up as the amazing thing, when it's just a byproduct of SOME amazing games. Jokic usually has quality ones, but I have to wonder just how meaningful the Draymond Green's were, for instance. But we forget all the amazing games players had where they were just a rebound or 2 short or an assist or 2. Or even Draymond again, but from the opposite end, where he plays well but scores in the single digits.

I don't really see the meaningfulness of the Triple Double on it;s own, especially not with pace of play increasing number of stats available, offensive increases making points and assists more readily available and 3 point shooting leading to more rebounds than we saw in the 2000s.

I have not seen or heard anything on it recently, but I'm pretty sure it's easier to get a T/D these days than it's ever been. Which again, doesn;t mean some performances with one don't boggle the mind, just that holding them up as "the evidence" is not great imo. and less so as we keep having this current offensive golden era.

[StillMcfuu]

I think most of the problem there is just the sheer difficulty in even GETTING to the Finals. Even the very best players only had a couple of Finals games. And then there's the higher level competition making it harder to get a T/D.

There's also the problem that T/Ds get held up as the amazing thing, when it's just a byproduct of SOME amazing games. Jokic usually has quality ones, but I have to wonder just how meaningful the Draymond Green's were, for instance. But we forget all the amazing games players had where they were just a rebound or 2 short or an assist or 2. Or even Draymond again, but from the opposite end, where he plays well but scores in the single digits.

I don't really see the meaningfulness of the Triple Double on it;s own, especially not with pace of play increasing number of stats available, offensive increases making points and assists more readily available and 3 point shooting leading to more rebounds than we saw in the 2000s.

I have not seen or heard anything on it recently, but I'm pretty sure it's easier to get a T/D these days than it's ever been. Which again, doesn;t mean some performances with one don't boggle the mind, just that holding them up as "the evidence" is not great imo. and less so as we keep having this current offensive golden era.

I agree with you, although the stats themselves are indicative of team performance and how that team plays. The Draymond t/d speak more about how the dubs are hitting shot and how he is making passes. He gets upheld as a great passer, but I see him as a system passer, he can make hard preplanned passes but he can't make a raw read on a broken play. Regardless of Green's point totals, if he has 10+ assists it means the dubs are getting their plays off.

I'd think the t/d is a bit over blown, but in the finals I find it interesting because the game is played differently at this level. It's 48 minutes of hard defense and offense with the best players almost always on the floor. There aren't down stretches where bench players are filling time on the floor possibly against a player they have no possibility of guarding.

Swishout or JimmyHR someone did a recent video where the Nuggets were 31-3 when Jokic scored a t/d and 3-3 when he just had a 40+ point game. I know a long time ago I looked at Westbrooks t/d and there wasn't a discernable difference in win rate when Westbrook had a triple double vs just a regular scoring game. That has a lot to do with team construction and their game plan.

I think pace gets too much credit for lack of stats from certain eras. I believe just differences in game play, we have only just returned to near 80s pace and the game was faster before that, 90s was only slightly slower than today's game. The differences here are the way defense/offense stays back vs today's game where most players are up the floor after the shot is in the air, because if they don't a full court pass is coming for free points. This difference also changes who can get rebounds, where long rebounds from 3pts are more common now, shorter rebounds are more prevalent on mid and short range shots. This definitely changes who can even get a t/d. Such as Pippen appearing on the list after damn near 6 straight finals years, he is a proto stretch wing so he gets rebounds, but also makes passes and scores at a high clip with a near positionless game. Exactly who I'd expect to get a t/d in today's games. Vs Jamal Murray who is a pure guard and got his final rebound on the final play of the game the other night. I also don't hold that he was actually 30/9/10 against him, that's an impressive stat line and I'd expect to find way more d/d lines to show impressive games in the finals.

And yeah, all the T/D from the finals are either 2010+ or early 90's and below. With Kidd being the exception if I recall.

[StillMcfuu]

Chris Paul available! Well, except in the playoffs, cause he's gonna get hurt.

What the hell is even going on with Paul. There are rumors of trades, him being waived and resigning, him just being waived, etc... Every headline is different, the Suns are saying they aren't actively waiving him at this moment. Frank Vogel has been their head coach for 6 hours and he has to deal with this, and I can't tell if its a shit show or if its completely calm behind the scenes but its being turned into a media shit show.
Speaking of Vogel unless he has a shockingly good relationship with Ayton, I expect him (Ayton) to be gone this offseason, he's the only one that I still expect to be traded. Even if Paul is waived, I expect him to resign at a rate more commensurate with his current performance. Ayton has been a "problem" for 2 seasons now.

[ProphetFlume]

Problem with Paul has always been that he’s really good at making a bad team mediocre but he’s not gonna carry you in the playoffs, a problem which is exaggerated now that he’s old and slow.

So he’s Westbrook?

[Pendulous]

Bad free throw shooting, bad three point shooting. Early foul trouble. Lots of turnovers. Refs trying their best. And yet Denver still managed to eke out the win.