Mega-Thread: Democratic 2020 Primaries

[Shalcker]

Senators were literally just briefed by the intelligence community that Russia was promoting this hoax in a big way. That was barely a month ago.

The fact that it continues to work so well for the Russians speaks volumes to the amount of heavy lifting the Republican party and conservative media have, and continue to do for their efforts to sew political discord.

That election interference by Ukraine was biggest Ukrainian self-own of the century (so far), of course it was used extensively - why wouldn't they?

The facts that "Russians used it" doesn't make it false by itself though.

[Orbitus]

That election interference by Ukraine was biggest Ukrainian self-own of the century (so far), of course it was used extensively - why wouldn't they?

The facts that "Russians used it" doesn't make it false by itself though.

You must have gotten new marching orders didn't you? You haven't been posting for a while, and now that they have new bullshit that the Republicans will parrot, you are doing the same thing.

[unfilteredJW]

Good thing the state never lied about anything.

With that being the case, we can ignore anything you have to say due to your lies in this forum.

Thanks for the heads up.

[Themius]

I never lie, but good to know you can only defend their previous lies with personal attacks.

So let me get this straight. The right wing has more trust in a hostile party (Russia) than its own intelligence? A country disappearing journalist and assassinating people? The fuck is wrong with your side?!

There is no excuse for that shit and every person admonishing American intelligence while praising Russian propaganda are treacherous , unamerican, and have no ground to stand on.

Like a fucking flat earther calling an astrophysicist uneducated.

[Shalcker]

So let me get this straight. The right wing has more trust in a hostile party (Russia) than its own intelligence? A country disappearing journalist and assassinating people? The fuck is wrong with your side?!

They know their own intelligence agencies and their lies (and that they are not their friends) intimately; they have quite unrealistic picture of Russia in their mind as some kind of bastion of conservative values fighting against various modern trends (because they don't actually interact with it).

Those closest to you are, realistically, much bigger enemies/threat then those far away.

[Kujako]

So let me get this straight. The right wing has more trust in a hostile party (Russia) than its own intelligence?.

Yes.

[Milchshake]

Yes.

According to Bernie, those two are totally reasonable gentlemen! He can totally sway them over to his side.

[Shalcker]

According to Bernie, those two are totally reasonable gentlemen! He can totally sway them over to his side.

Yes, because Bernie isn't Democrat - he just runs through them.

[Theodarzna]

Good thing the state never lied about anything.

Not only that, but what exactly is claimed to be the hoax exactly? Is it that Hunter Biden worked for a Ukrainian energy company? Is it a hoax that Hunter Biden exists at all? Does the energy company not exist? Like what are people claiming exactly is made up?

[szechuan]

Not only that, but what exactly is claimed to be the hoax exactly? Is it that Hunter Biden worked for a Ukrainian energy company? Is it a hoax that Hunter Biden exists at all? Does the energy company not exist? Like what are people claiming exactly is made up?

You mean the conspiracies Trump spews constantly such as Deep State and Qanon?

[Theodarzna]

You mean the conspiracies Trump spews constantly such as Deep State and Qanon?

[...]

The Deep State was a conspiracy before, now its admitted to be real and its a good thing (TM).

The idea of a Deep State is laughable, well its laughable that people say its a conspiracy to state America has one.

[szechuan]

The Deep State was a conspiracy before, now its admitted to be real and its a good thing (TM).

LMAO. And Your link does not work.

The idea of a Deep State is laughable, well its laughable that people say its a conspiracy to state America has one.

For idiots who have no other defense of Trump.

[Theodarzna]

LMAO. And Your link does not work.



For idiots who have no other defense of Trump.

Why we should celebrate America’s deep state < Feel free to google it.

And the existence of a permanent bureaucracy that actually runs the government irregardless of who gets elected isn't really controversial.

[Levelfive]

According to Bernie, those two are totally reasonable gentlemen! He can totally sway them over to his side.

This is really good read if you haven't seen it already: http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2017/...illbilly.html#

Longish excerpt:

"There’s no way liberals can counter these voters’ blind faith in a huckster who’s sold them this snake oil. The notion that they can be won over by some sort of new New Deal — “domestic programs that would benefit everyone (like national health insurance),” as Mark Lilla puts it — is wishful thinking. These voters are so adamantly opposed to government programs that in some cases they refuse to accept the fact that aid they already receive comes from Washington — witness the “Keep Government Out of My Medicare!” placards at the early tea-party protests.

Perhaps it’s a smarter idea to just let the GOP own these intractable voters. Liberals looking for a way to empathize with conservatives should endorse the core conservative belief in the importance of personal responsibility. Let Trump’s white working-class base take responsibility for its own votes — or in some cases failure to vote — and live with the election’s consequences. If, as polls tell us, many voters who vilify Obamacare haven’t yet figured out that it’s another name for the Affordable Care Act that’s benefiting them — or if they do know and still want the Trump alternative — then let them reap the consequences for voting against their own interests. That they will sabotage other needy Americans along with them is unavoidable in any case now — at least until voters stage an intervention in an election to come.

Trump voters should also be reminded that the elite of the party they’ve put in power is as dismissive of them as Democratic elites can be condescending. “Forget your cheap theatrical Bruce Springsteen crap,” Kevin Williamson wrote of the white working class in National Review. “The truth about these dysfunctional, downscale communities is that they deserve to die. Economically, they are negative assets. Morally, they are indefensible.” He was only saying in public what other Republicans like Mitt Romney say about the “47 percent” in private when they think only well-heeled donors are listening. Besides, if National Review says that their towns deserve to die, who are Democrats to stand in the way of Trump voters who used their ballots to commit assisted suicide?

So hold the empathy and hold on to the anger. If Trump delivers on his promises to the “poorly educated” despite all indications to the contrary, then good for them. Once again, all the Trump naysayers will be proved wrong. But if his administration crashes into an iceberg, leaving his base trapped in America’s steerage with no lifeboats, those who survive may at last be ready to burst out of their own bubble and listen to an alternative. Or not: Maybe, like Hochschild’s new friends in Louisiana’s oil country, they’ll keep voting against their own interests until the industrial poisons left unregulated by their favored politicians finish them off altogether. Either way, the best course for Democrats may be to respect their right to choose."

[Edge-]

Why we should celebrate America’s deep state < Feel free to google it.

And the existence of a permanent bureaucracy that actually runs the government irregardless of who gets elected isn't really controversial.

Donald Trump’s most troubling foreign policy blunder to date has been in league with Turkey’s Recep Tayyip Erdogan — president of the country about which the term “deep state” was originally coined. Ataturk’s army and civil service formed a secular backbone that kept even moderate Islamist parties at bay for more than 70 years. Erdogan would like Turkish voters to think their deep state still exists. If so, it provides little brake on his actions. Secular Turkey is in headlong retreat.

The US had a deep state during the Cold War — Eisenhower’s defence-industrial complex. I would question the degree to which it still exists. The mere fact of Donald Trump’s impunity suggests that it is no longer powerful. Almost everything Trump has done, including abandoning the Kurds, goes against the grain of America’s national security consensus about the value of alliances, long-term relationships, and America’s role as the diplomatic lender of last resort. Yet the term has greater currency than ever.

Trump believes the deep state is trying to bring down his presidency. Exhibit A in his mind is the CIA whistleblower and the fact that Adam Schiff, the Democrat who is spearheading the impeachment process against him, is conducting intelligence committee hearings in private. Trump is probably right that this process will result in his impeachment. I would argue that what he really means by deep state is “unelected bureaucrats”. It is time to remove the stigma from that designation.

Some unelected bureaucrats, such as Mike Pompeo, US secretary of state, are indeed doing a poor job of safeguarding America’s interests. The same applies to Gordon Sondland, US ambassador to the EU, who sees his role as furthering Trump’s anti-globalist agenda. Ditto for David Cornstein, the US ambassador to Hungary, who sees his job as furthering Viktor Orban’s goals, as The New York Times pointed out in a richly reported piece this week. He has gone native. Woody Johnson, Trump’s ambassador in London, has spent most of the past three years doing the opposite — undermining former Prime Minister Theresa May’s government. It all depends on where you are based.

Contrast these figures with Marie Yovanovitch, former US ambassador to Ukraine, Bill Taylor, his current (though presumably not for long) ambassador to Ukraine, Fiona Hill, his former Russia adviser, and Brett McGurk, his former Isis co-ordinator. Each has acted with exemplary professionalism. The difference is that the latter group are trained diplomats. Only Fiona Hill, who is a Russia specialist, and has served previous administrations, did not come from the State Department. The first group did not have a single day of diplomatic training between them before they took their jobs. Sondland was a hotelier in Portland. Cornstein was a jeweller and gambling operator in New York. Johnson owned the New York Jets and Pompeo was a Republican congressman.

None of the professionals that I mentioned have either sought financial profit or fame from their careers. Taylor, whose meticulous note-taking resulted earlier this week in the most devastating impeachment testimony so far, has spent 50 years toiling in relative obscurity on behalf of the US taxpayer. But for Ukrainegate, most of us would never have heard of him.

Without such civil servants, the US government would be unable to function. Hostility to bureaucracy is deeply embedded in America’s political DNA. But we mistreat public servants at our peril. By his actions in the past month, Pompeo has made it plain that he feels no duty to those who serve under him. His sole writ is to anticipate the whims of Donald Trump. Diplomats are leaving the State Department. Morale among those who remain is rock bottom.

Other departments are experiencing similar crises. Ask the officials whose job it is to forecast storms, collect statistics on homegrown terrorist threats, or measure the impact of tariffs on farming. We depend every day on the invisible professionalism of people working on mediocre pay, suffering the scorn of politicians and facing increasingly dubious career prospects. Unlike Sondland et al, they did not buy their positions. Nor will most of them be able to monetise their experience when they leave government.

There is nothing dark about those who make their living in America’s deep state. Their services are unsung but provide great value at the price. You would think a president who believes in the art of the deal could see the bargain under his nose. Alas, he believes pretty much that everyone who works for the US government is plotting against him. Rana, shall we throw a Swamp Notes party for Washington’s unsung bureaucrats? If you take care of the music, I’ll fix the drinks.

The article isn't quite saying what you seem to imply it's saying.

[Somewhatconcerned]

The Democratic voting base will eat itself alive during this primary season. What with the Bernie Bros, the #NeverPete movement, Warren=Hilary 2.0 crowd, it's going to be brutal. Whoever gets the nomination, rest assured a large segment of the voting bloc will be butthurt about it and probably repeat 2016 as far a protest/troll vote goes.

[JohnBrown1917]

The Democratic voting base will eat itself alive during this primary season. What with the Bernie Bros, the #NeverPete movement, Warren=Hilary 2.0 crowd, it's going to be brutal. Whoever gets the nomination, rest assured a large segment of the voting bloc will be butthurt about it and probably repeat 2016 as far a protest/troll vote goes.

You mean 2008? With Clinton and Obama? Because in 2016 not that many switched.

[szechuan]

Why we should celebrate America’s deep state < Feel free to google it.

LMAO, Another QAnon DeepState fanboy.

[cubby]

The Democratic voting base will eat itself alive during this primary season. What with the Bernie Bros, the #NeverPete movement, Warren=Hilary 2.0 crowd, it's going to be brutal. Whoever gets the nomination, rest assured a large segment of the voting bloc will be butthurt about it and probably repeat 2016 as far a protest/troll vote goes.

Competitive? Yes. Not voting Democrat because their candidate didn't win the nomination? Not this time. Nobody wants Trump another four years. Hell, even the people "supporting" him don't.

[Ghostpanther]

The Democratic voting base will eat itself alive during this primary season. What with the Bernie Bros, the #NeverPete movement, Warren=Hilary 2.0 crowd, it's going to be brutal. Whoever gets the nomination, rest assured a large segment of the voting bloc will be butthurt about it and probably repeat 2016 as far a protest/troll vote goes.

That is a really good point.