Mega-Thread: Democratic 2020 Primaries

[Shadowferal]

Hillary was doing better for the vast majority of the 2016 election, and she had higher poll numbers then either Sanders or Biden and she still lost.
One thing people are ignoring about the current polling on any level, general or state, is that it's not really all the valuable. Because there will be a green party candidate, there will be a libertarian candidate and they will take some percentages of the vote.

I admit that I take any polling with a hefty skepticism.
And whatever doom and gloom is being fired up...isn't helping.

[Skroe]

Being anti-nuclear in an age of a climate crisis is also an extremely unserious stance. It shows one cares more about ideology than being able to implement it practically: i.e. exactly what Sanders is being accused of.

I sincerely hope he takes the fucking hint from this entirely unnecessary media shitshow. Fighting every battle whether you need to or not is a quick way to lose the war.

Bingo. It's either a crisis or it isn't. Crisis means all options on the table.

[Elegiac]

I'm not a one-issue voter at all. I was offering an example of when Bernie Sanders exposed himself, truly, for what he is.

And anti green folk who are still anti-nuclear, particularly against nuclear plants already bought and paid for, aren't treating the Climate Crisis as an actual crisis. They are treating it as as a "Climate Opportunity" (to advance the things they believed in anyway).

Is it a crisis or is it not? I happen to think it's a Climate Crisis. The solution to that crisis is "all of the above that doesn't emit carbon". Bernie sanders is clearly not "all the above". He is, by his own policy statement, "terms and conditions may apply". There fore, not a Climate Crisis to the likes of him.

I'm probably to the left of many people here on climate issues because I treat the Crisis as an actual all-hands-on-deck, everything-and-the-kitchen-sink moment. But my concern for years now has been the opportunism of individuals on the left utilizing Climate Change as an excuse to justify things they always believed in. Anti-consumerism. Anti-Urbanism. Localism. The end to car culture. More socialism and a communal way of living. Things like that. In Bernie Sanders, I see exactly that. Not treating it as a crisis. Treating it as a chance to force policy that has had no record of gaining any popularity down the throats of Americans.

And I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is regarding healthcare.

I want universal healthcare, very badly. But if the Republicans were actually willing to sign their name to a public option compromise in the first term? Yes, absolutely. It is a crisis and in the short term stemming the damage to ordinary people is more important than adhering to a singular plan because of ideology.

But hey that must mean I'm a seeeeeeeeeeeecret capitalist, from the way Bernie supporters talk. Despite every other sentence from my mouth being some memetic variant of "lol what the fuck even is capitalism".

[Thepersona]

Yes, but how does that help us this electoral cycle?

Mmmm...
I will answer as honestly as i can. First of all, i think that this election season is an uphill battle for any democratic candidate, as Dotard Tang has the incumbent's advantage, and he weaponized his own DOJ to help him win (alongside all the help he gets from the senate, and the foreign agents that are working on there).
Now, to combat that, i personally dont think that a milquetoast moderate right wing democratic nominee would win the election. Not against Trump. Not in the era of populism in the world. Now, i think that if Sanders wins the nomination, he HAS to pick a moderate VP (Biden? Klobuchar? Booker?) to make his choice more palatable to the Skroe's in America.

[Endus]

You are absolutely wrong and simply do not understand winning election strategies in America.

Or I just flatly do not accept your "you cannot win while maintaining your principles" talking point. Which seems to be based on nothing.

Your way is not a good way to win power, which is what this is about. Winning power. Not governing. Not being honest to people. It's about the con. It's about to get just enough them to like your guy more than the other guy, and largely failing to delivery whatever is promised.

Believe me, I understand what you're saying.

It's just appalling and lacks any sort of ethical principle. In a world where both teams do whatever they can to win, neither team gets to claim any moral or ethical high ground; they're both equally evil and manipulative. I don't see that as "winning". That's losing, and not because you made an honest effort, but because you abandoned everything you stood for in the name of a hollow, meaningless victory.

Democrats becoming what you're demanding would make them just as venal and rudderless as the Republicans. Rather than providing an alternative, they'd have become them. Frankly, Americans deserve better.

But feel free to prove me wrong, and that you really don't deserve better, and will drag the entire country down around you because you celebrate the absolute worst in humanity.

[Elegiac]

Mmmm...
I will answer as honestly as i can. First of all, i think that this election season is an uphill battle for any democratic candidate, as Dotard Tang has the incumbent's advantage, and he weaponized his own DOJ to help him win (alongside all the help he gets from the senate, and the foreign agents that are working on there).
Now, to combat that, i personally dont think that a milquetoast moderate right wing democratic nominee would win the election. Not against Trump. Not in the era of populism in the world. Now, i think that if Sanders wins the nomination, he HAS to pick a moderate VP (Biden? Klobuchar? Booker?) to make his choice more palatable to the Skroe's in America.

Okay...

I'm not sure how this is really relevant to the fact Sanders is giving mal de ojo to anyone that criticises left wing authoritarian regimes on live television and how that's not a politically wise move.

[Thepersona]

Bingo. It's either a crisis or it isn't. Crisis means all options on the table.

I wouldnt call it crisis. It's an existencial threat to our future, and a grave problem that we HAVE to takle if we want to be a species that colonizes the stars.

[Sunseeker]

I'm not a one-issue voter at all. I was offering an example of when Bernie Sanders exposed himself, truly, for what he is.

Being green and anti-nuclear? There are plenty of solid reasons to be opposed to nuclear power while still standing on a perfectly sound green platform.

The fact that you disagree with them does not make them wrong. Though I understand in your head people who disagree with you are wrong.

And anti green folk who are still anti-nuclear, particularly against nuclear plants already bought and paid for, aren't treating the Climate Crisis as an actual crisis. They are treating it as as a "Climate Opportunity" (to advance the things they believed in anyway).

America's nuclear plants are largely old and dirty. They are not the nice, clean newer plants that exist in a number of European countries and Japan. They are also often money sinks for the companies operating them, and have a bad reputation, which is why so often local governments legislate against them. Bernie isn't saying anything that many local governments aren't already saying.

Is it a crisis or is it not? I happen to think it's a Climate Crisis. The solution to that crisis is "all of the above that doesn't emit carbon". Bernie sanders is clearly not "all the above". He is, by his own policy statement, "terms and conditions may apply". There fore, not a Climate Crisis to the likes of him.

So what? Just because my house is on fire doesn't mean I want to dump sewage on it to put it out.

I'm probably to the left of many people here on climate issues because I treat the Crisis as an actual all-hands-on-deck, everything-and-the-kitchen-sink moment. But my concern for years now has been the opportunism of individuals on the left utilizing Climate Change as an excuse to justify things they always believed in. Anti-consumerism. Anti-Urbanism. Localism. The end to car culture. More socialism and a communal way of living. Things like that. In Bernie Sanders, I see exactly that. Not treating it as a crisis. Treating it as a chance to force policy that has had no record of gaining any popularity down the throats of Americans.

That's nice.

Go run for President already, you already think you know better than everyone else.

[Skroe]

I admit that I take any polling with a hefty skepticism.
And whatever doom and gloom is being fired up...isn't helping.

It's a healthy dose of cold water to get you people to encourage your candidate to prevent future fuck-ups.

Because seriously (as an example) do you seriously doubt that some time, in the next 6 months, Bernie Sanders won't be tempted, as a Jew, to chime in on the Israeli and Palestinian issue and say something that is factually correct and filled with nuance, but comes out in a way that could be, at least modestly twisted to sound like "Bernie Sanders is a friend of Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran".

Want to know what the solution to that is? It's not to, as you and others have done here, to say "well ACKSHUALLY WHAT SANDERS SAID IS........"

It's to say "Hey Bernie, don't be a fucking idiot this time and don't go near that topic with a 10 foot pole".

You people need to learn to think strategically and not emotionally if you actually want to win. I haven't seen one ounce of moment in that direction. I've seen the opposite - the fuck up followed by the doubling down. I dare you people to try that in the general election. If you think that's going to fly, you'll find out the hardway how ineffectual it is.

Bernie Sanders should _never_ be in a position, until he is President, to be explaining ANYTHING with nuance. If it is a topic that requires nuance, don't fucking talk about it. If you have to give an answer, give an answer that pleases people in swing states and districts, even if it a baldface lie.

The point is to win, not to be honest and not to feel justified and not to educate. This point is to win.

The point is to win.

The. Point. Is. To. Win.

[Elegiac]

It's a healthy dose of cold water to get you people to encourage your candidate to prevent future fuck-ups.

Because seriously (as an example) do you seriously doubt that some time, in the next 6 months, Bernie Sanders won't be tempted, as a Jew, to chime in on the Israeli and Palestinian issue and say something that is factually correct and filled with nuance, but comes out in a way that could be, at least modestly twisted to sound like "Bernie Sanders is a friend of Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran".

Want to know what the solution to that is? It's not to, as you and others have done here, to say "well ACKSHUALLY WHAT SANDERS SAID IS........"

It's to say "Hey Bernie, don't be a fucking idiot this time and don't go near that topic with a 10 foot pole".

You people need to learn to think strategically and not emotionally if you actually want to win. I haven't seen one ounce of moment in that direction. I've seen the opposite - the fuck up followed by the doubling down. I dare you people to try that in the general election. If you think that's going to fly, you'll find out the hardway how ineffectual it is.

Bernie Sanders should _never_ be in a position, until he is President, to be explaining ANYTHING with nuance. If it is a topic that requires nuance, don't fucking talk about it. If you have to give an answer, give an answer that pleases people in swing states and districts, even if it a baldface lie.

The point is to win, not to be honest and not to feel justified and not to educate. This point is to win.

The point is to win.

The. Point. Is. To. Win.

Hey, want a trip down memory lane with this bit of advice from a rascally old pervert?

"The economy, stupid."

[Rasulis]

Yup its ok if you tell one of your employees to kill their unborn child. As long as there was no groping.

That makes him a jerk and unsympathetic boss. It does not make him a rapist.

[Thepersona]

Okay...

I'm not sure how this is really relevant to the fact Sanders is giving mal de ojo to anyone that criticises left wing authoritarian regimes on live television and how that's not a politically wise move.

Oh, About that. He needs to shut up when...
oh what the fuck i am trying to say, dude, Trump is your president. He's the one that was in that access hollywood tape. And people still voted for him.

[Shadowferal]

What strategy did Trump have in 2016 that people feel the need to adopt it? Everyone knew he didn't have a chance to beat Hillary. Everyone knew he wasn't taking the race seriously. Not even he himself took it seriously.

I recall posting the big problem that Dems had were they weren't taking Trump seriously....
But now...?

[Elegiac]

Maybe, just maybe, other people are smarter than you and can see that there are more commonalities between authoritarian regimes and the current US political system than ageing old farts with a cold war mindset would like to think.

I thought so too, but then 2016 happened and I took up smoking weed and gave up atheism.

Now I'm a lot more cautious in my political assessments. It can, and did, happen here.

[Endus]

Oh, About that. He needs to shut up when...
oh what the fuck i am trying to say, dude, Trump is your president. He's the one that was in that access hollywood tape. And people still voted for him.

Remember; saying you like to "grab 'em by the pussy", that's totally electable.

Saying a literacy program was a good idea, that's commie talk and you'll never be elected.

[Theodarzna]

What strategy did Trump have in 2016 that people feel the need to adopt it? Everyone knew he didn't have a chance to beat Hillary. Everyone knew he wasn't taking the race seriously. Not even he himself took it seriously.

I recall posting the big problem that Dems had were they weren't taking Trump seriously....
But now...?

Now many of them are debating if actually Trump is all that bad if the alternative is giving people Universal Health Care and someone who correctly points out that Fidel Castro didn't eat babies and molest children.

[Elegiac]

Remember; saying you like to "grab 'em by the pussy", that's totally electable.

Saying a literacy program was a good idea, that's commie talk and you'll never be elected.

I mean it kinda is commie talk when it's said in defense of a self-styled communist regime that a whole lot of potential Democrat voters have beef with. Kinda a big difference there.

[Thepersona]

I mean it kinda is commie talk when it's said in defense of a self-styled communist regime that a whole lot of potential Democrat voters have beef with. Kinda a big difference there.

A lot of potential democrats? Are you talking about 40+ year old Cubans? AFAIK, they still don't forgive Kennedy for giving up on that country.

[Skroe]

That's nice.

Go run for President already, you already think you know better than everyone else.

Maybe I should. I have thought about going into politics, truth be told. My political activity since 2017 - the anti-Trump PAC - has brought out a new side of me. A side I like and never knew was there. I think I will continue to explore it.

I've also been bred for leadership. I went to an expensive private high school that the Bushes went to. I founded my first software company at 17 and my second at 23. I was fast tracked to a senior position at my current company because of my background and skills. Hell I've even lead a World of Warcraft raid guild since 2008.

Everything I do I lead in. It comes naturally to me. I feel comfortable there.

So wouldn't that be funny, if I, half Hispanic, were the "first Hispanic President" one day, the same way Obama, half black was "the First black President". I think it'd be a hoot.

And I think I'd do a better job than any of the morons running in 2020. I am smarter. Sharper. Faster. My command of facts, my breadth of knowledge of the topics, and my ability to juggle logic and emotion is superior. I also think I'd do a much better job than the progressives here. They're slaves to their ideology. I'm an ideological contortionist bar-none. The conservative who believes in the climate crisis. Go figure. What will the universe think of next.

So maybe one day? I think because I'm a realistic person, we should talk about local and maybe state government first. But I'm just 36 and I have a lot of years where I want to make a lot of money and do things that excite me, before I have to stop all that.

So we'll see! But I will tell you, you may think it a snarky attack, but I think it's something I've given a lot of thought of. I have the professional background, the pedigree, the name, the look, and the ego to do it if I wanted to, one day.

[Jehct]

Mike "White people are stopped too much" Bloomberg

Mike "Minorities are just more violent" Bloomberg

Mike "I'm not racist but..." Bloomberg

Mike "Vote for me and watch New York turn red" Bloomberg

If people actually practiced what they preached Bloomberg would not get a second of airtime. But we're supposed to just hold our nose and vote for 'the guy with the most electability'.

^^^^^^^^

Truth!