Mega-Thread: Democratic 2020 Primaries

[Sunseeker]

A Keynesian beauty contest (originally used to describe stock market behavior iirc) is basically a thought experiment wherein people are shown a hundred photos and asked to pick the ones that they like the most. The catch is that people who pick the most popular photos have the chance to win a prize. The result of this catch is that instead of picking who they think is the most beautiful, they have an incentive to game out who everyone else is going to find the most beautiful so as to try and win a prize.

So in this context, it means that voters (you've probably seen polls indicating that "can beat Trump" is more important to people than "someone I agree with") are picking Biden not necessarily because they like him the most, but because they think other people will vote for him instead of Trump. For example, there are plenty of posters in this thread alone that are closer to Sanders on policy, but either don't like him personally (or 'Bernie Bros') or think he's too risky in an election against Trump.

Huh, learn something new every day.

[Gestopft]

thats still a legitimate reason to vote for someone.

I don't mean to imply otherwise; my stance is that people can vote for whatever reason they want, even if I personally think it's a dumb reason. But what I am pointing out is that (in this cycle especially) the policies that Democratic voters actually want aren't necessarily correlated to the votes being cast. Also, my concern for a while has been that if people just coalesce around Biden based on the belief that he can win swing voters, he won't actually have the enthusiasm behind him that Democratic candidates tend to need in the general.

i've said many times that bernie ought to show he can appeal to a wider base of voters to succeed, but his superfans kept foaming about the dirty word "compromise".
being surrounded by those types is only hurting bernie, not the evil moderates.

And then in an ironic twist, when Sanders got a quasi-endorsement from Joe Rogan, the same people that lambaste Sanders supporters for not being willing to compromise started calling screeching 'brown-red alliance' at the possibility of compromise with social moderates or conservatives.

[lockybalboa]

I said Don't give us any low-count burner crap! One of those guys is 382 posts in four years - and that guy was just mocking against Biden-supporters here.

The other guy (lockybalboa) is clearly a drive-by troll if you look at his posting history in all forums. Shit, he's even using Dumbass Dump's terminology/talking points and calling Biden "Sleepy Joe" just a few days ago in one of his posts.

You can't seriously believe these two are ACTUALLY Bernie-supporters! >_<

Oh, and that's just 2, not the three you were saying you counted.

Also, when are you going to source that claim of yours that Bernie is creating a White House position for that Left-Wing journalist???

You'd expect me to vote Senile Biden then? You think we are cheering for a football team here ffs? Dems team vs R team? Don't be childish. Look at the big picture.

[Telogrus]

its a joke but Tulsi is a massive cunt. Not sure why anyone would like her. She did chemical weapons trutherism. She can fuck off.

@Elegiac This guy just referred to the only female candidate left as a “cunt.” Where’s the outrage? If a Bernie supporters called Warren a cunt, you would be all over them

[starlord]

I don't mean to imply otherwise; my stance is that people can vote for whatever reason they want, even if I personally think it's a dumb reason. But what I am pointing out is that (in this cycle especially) the policies that Democratic voters actually want aren't necessarily correlated to the votes being cast.

And then in an ironic twist, when Sanders got a quasi-endorsement from Joe Rogan, the same people that lambaste Sanders supporters for not being willing to compromise started calling screeching 'brown-red alliance' at the possibility of compromise with social moderates or conservatives.

what compromise was he offering? pretty sure a big criticism of bernie has been that his ideology is consistent with those types.

[mvaliz]

You'd expect me to vote Senile Biden then? You think we are cheering for a football team here ffs? Dems team vs R team? Don't be childish. Look at the big picture.

Thanks for proving my point, Mr. Drive-by T-Word. ^_^

Notice this guy responded to me, and not the actual person whom quoted him above. He's just egging on forum fights here, and even our resident mods are getting suckered into all of it. >_<

[lockybalboa]

Thanks for proving my point, Mr. Drive-by T-Word. ^_^

Get your pom pom out!

[Santti]

Clinton's actual quote was that half of Trump's supporters were a "basket of deplorables". That they all assumed they personally were deplorable, rather than in the non-deplorable half, says everything you need to know about Clinton being far too generous in her phrasing. And they all know it.

I wish we saw an apology from her. "Half of the Trump supporters aren't deplorable", and see how they would react.

[Gestopft]

what compromise was he offering? pretty sure a big criticism of bernie has been that his ideology is consistent with those types.

1) He wasn't offering anything. It was just Joe Rogan saying that he would probably vote for Bernie, and people freaked out about it.

2) He has always been on the side of civil rights. While campaigning, his emphasis is more on healthcare/corruption/income, leading some people to act like he doesn't care about marginalized groups because he doesn't focus on those issues 'enough', but he's still socially liberal. Basically, the idea of someone that doesn't support trans rights being a Democrat because they like Medicare for All is unacceptable to some people. We all have lines that we draw somewhere.

[starlord]

1) He wasn't offering anything. It was just Joe Rogan saying that he would probably vote for Bernie, and people freaked out about it.

2) He has always been on the side of civil rights. While campaigning, his emphasis is more on healthcare/corruption/income, leading some people to act like he doesn't care about marginalized groups because he doesn't focus on those issues 'enough', but he's still socially liberal. Basically the idea of someone that doesn't like trans people being a Democrat because they like Medicare for All is unacceptable to some people. We all have lines that we draw somewhere.

bernie chose to accept and proclaim rogans endorsement, and all the baggage that came with it.
we've seen how "democratic" some bernie fans are. which is to say as long as it suits their needs. maybe if bernie hadn't relied on them so much and didn't send his troll army after fellow progressives he would be doing better.
your guys argument is pretty nonsensical. "bernie can't win enough votes right now, but if you make him candidate despite not winning it, he will win! people just don't vote for what they *really* want, which is of course bernie."

[lockybalboa]

Bernie is the perfect counter to Trump. You can't rely on a meek status-quo dinosaur like Biden to beat Trump. You have to fight fire with fire. Amorality is Trump's biggest flaw and Bernie is really good at capitalizing on that. Bernie has support but his naive supporters think that QQ-ing on twitter and Reddit equates to actual votes

[Telogrus]

bernie chose to accept and proclaim rogans endorsement, and all the baggage that came with it.
we've seen how "democratic" some bernie fans are. which is to say as long as it suits their needs. maybe if bernie hadn't relied on them so much and didn't send his troll army after fellow progressives he would be doing better.
your guys argument is pretty nonsensical. "bernie can't win enough votes right now, but if you make him candidate despite not winning it, he will win! people just don't vote for what they *really* want, which is of course bernie."

Still can’t believe that you guys are upset with Rogan saying that a trans woman shouldn’t be allowed to compete in female combat sports. It’s a perfectly valid point because trans women have a huge biological advantage over cis women. In fact, letting trans women compete in female combat sports is kinda sexist.
[Infraction]

[Gestopft]

bernie chose to accept and proclaim rogans endorsement, and all the baggage that came with it.

Fair, but as I indicated, most of the baggage was due to other liberals foisting their own purity tests on him.

we've seen how "democratic" some bernie fans are. which is to say as long as it suits their needs. maybe if bernie hadn't relied on them so much and didn't send his troll army after fellow progressives he would be doing better.

I don't think it was so much "Bernie sending his 'army' after people" as "some Bernie supporters getting way out of hand and making him look bad." Antagonizing fellow Progressives is never a good look I would agree.

your guys argument is pretty nonsensical. "bernie can't win enough votes right now, but if you make him candidate despite not winning it, he will win! people just don't vote for what they *really* want, which is of course bernie."

Nonsensical when you put it that way, but that's not the theory of the case, though. The argument (to summarize very briefly) is that the 'conventional wisdom' that Biden is the best and most electable candidate is flawed (see 2016), and that Bernie would a) bring out more of the low-propensity voters that Democrats rely on (Clinton lost twice as many of Obama's voters in Michigan and Wisconsin to the couch as she did to Trump), and b) have a better chance of getting back Rust Belt swing voters due to his populist/anti-establishment appeal.

[NED funded]

bernie chose to accept and proclaim rogans endorsement, and all the baggage that came with it.
we've seen how "democratic" some bernie fans are. which is to say as long as it suits their needs. maybe if bernie hadn't relied on them so much and didn't send his troll army after fellow progressives he would be doing better.
your guys argument is pretty nonsensical. "bernie can't win enough votes right now, but if you make him candidate despite not winning it, he will win! people just don't vote for what they *really* want, which is of course bernie."

Whats funny about the Joe Rogan endorsement is that he took it back literally two weeks after he made it. Bernie took all that baggage for literally nothing XD

[Dacien]

Whats funny about the Joe Rogan endorsement is that he took it back literally two weeks after he made it. Bernie took all that baggage for literally nothing XD

Do you have a link?

[starlord]

Fair, but as I indicated, most of the baggage was due to other liberals foisting their own purity tests on him.

I don't think it was so much "Bernie sending his 'army' after people" as "some Bernie supporters getting way out of hand and making him look bad." Antagonizing fellow Progressives is never a good look I would agree.

Nonsensical when you put it that way, but that's not the theory of the case, though. The argument (to summarize very briefly) is that the 'conventional wisdom' that Biden is the best and most electable candidate is flawed (see 2016), and that Bernie would a) bring out more of the low-propensity voters that Democrats rely on (Clinton lost twice as many of Obama's voters in Michigan and Wisconsin to the couch as she did to Trump), and b) have a better chance of getting back Rust Belt swing voters due to his populist/anti-establishment appeal.

bernie can't even control his own messaging is not a great endorsement either. also its been shown that trump voters were mainly driven by racism. so there isn't much basis for the theory that bernie will appeal to them more either. in fact he did betted in the more "high brow establishment" NE states.

[Vash The Stampede]

At this point I think Bernie supporters shouldn't want Elizabeth Warrens endorsement. If she was truly progressive and believed in the things she says then she should have endorsed Bernie the moment she dropped. She should have dropped out before Super Tuesday which might have helped Bernie win some more states. Her retreat from Medicare-For-All should have been a sign that she's not reliable in defending her own beliefs. If Bernie Sanders is going to win, he has to do it without her support. And he needs to go after Joe Biden on his voting record as well as his dementia.

[NED funded]

Dementia kicking in for Sanders

Asked about Gov. Gretchen Whitmer’s endorsement of Mr. Biden on Thursday, Mr. Sanders sounded miffed. “Well, that wasn’t her thoughts when I came here to help her get elected, as a matter of fact,” he said.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/06/u...c-primary.html

Forgetting who he was campaigning for at the time lol

[Sunseeker]

At this point I think Bernie supporters shouldn't want Elizabeth Warrens endorsement. If she was truly progressive and believed in the things she says then she should have endorsed Bernie the moment she dropped. She should have dropped out before Super Tuesday which might have helped Bernie win some more states. Her retreat from Medicare-For-All should have been a sign that she's not reliable in defending her own beliefs. If Bernie Sanders is going to win, he has to do it without her support. And he needs to go after Joe Biden on his voting record as well as his dementia.

I honestly don't think it would make much difference. Warren isn't exactly "in" with the establishment and her support base was not particularly huge. Amy, Pete, others circling their wagons around Biden honestly does more for them than it does for Biden. None of them were particularly strongly supported in the primaries, none of them had particularly strong views on any given subject. They back Biden, they keep in the DNCs good graces, and their supporters might go to Biden, but more importantly it sets them up down the road to say "Yeah I was on Biden's side!". If Biden gets elected, this bodes well for their political opportunities. If he doesn't, they still get to keep their good standing with the DNC, and may get to try again later.

Warren doesn't have good standing with the DNC, so endorsing Bernie just digs her hole deeper. But not endorsing Bernie also digs her hole deeper. Her best course of action now is to stay on the sidelines, take a few potshots at Bernie via his supporters, but noe endorse Biden either. It is the best decision she can make for herself.

Because ultimately, none of these people are acting for the greater good, they're all making these decisions in their own self interest. That's bad. But that's the state of American politics. Politicians make decisions about what is best for them and the rest be damned.

[Elegiac]

I guess I don't understand why folks feel Sanders supporters have to support Biden. For example, Elegiac and I think yourself (I could be wrong) have complained about how Bernie Sanders didn't work to widen his coalition and get X or Y demographic more than Biden did. So if Sanders is at fault for not working to get more of the black vote, is Biden not also on the hook to get the progressive vote? Should he not have to work on building his coalition just as Sanders had to work on his? What's inherently different about being in a progressive group than being in a racial group, given that both are equally opposed by the other party and clearly have no home there, either? Like Edge says again and again, "that's politics." If Biden wants their support, he should have to work for it like any other group.

Yes.

And my point is that Biden is clearly doing a better job of that kind of coalition building than Sanders is, as evidenced by the high turnout and the way he consolidated the moderate lane whereas Sanders' camp is vacillating between passively aggressively begging Warren supporters to support Bernie "if they care about X" or demanding they bend the knee and insinuating they're bad people/unprincipled for not doing so.

I am not arguing that Biden is a perfect candidate. I am arguing that Bernie is a weaker one. Sanders and his camp botched the possibility of a progressive administration by entering the race. I've reconciled myself to that fact and am more interested in ensuring that the next administration is a) Democratic and b) has progressive concessions like cabinet positions or policies.

Don't make me dig out the "Here's How Bernie Can Still Win!" memes from 2016.