Mega-Thread: Democratic 2020 Primaries

[Ghostpanther]

It is looking more and more like Biden will be the nominee. His opponents are basically handing it to him. He may lose Iowa, but that does not mean shit. Trump lost Iowa in the 2016 primary.

[JohnBrown1917]

It is looking more and more like Biden will be the nominee. His opponents are basically handing it to him. He may lose Iowa, but that does not mean shit. Trump lost Iowa in the 2016 primary.

Is "handing it to them" conservative speak for "the conservative candidate will always win because I say so"?

[Dontrike]

Why and how so? There is evaluation I assume?

Personally we have politicians so old they are detached from a lot of what is going on in the current world, many are stuck in their old ways, which can be an issue. Say 70 years old and if the person's term is still going and they go past 70 then let them finish it and then kick them out. Term limits just stop some from being a career politician and we get a constant flow of ideas.

[JohnBrown1917]

Personally we have politicians so old they are detached from a lot of what is going on in the current world, many are stuck in their old ways, which can be an issue. Say 70 years old and if the person's term is still going and they go past 70 then let them finish it and then kick them out. Term limits just stop some from being a career politician and we get a constant flow of ideas.

The lack of new idea is not the problem in politics. Sanders has pretty much been saying the same stuff for decades.

[Draco-Onis]

Personally we have politicians so old they are detached from a lot of what is going on in the current world, many are stuck in their old ways, which can be an issue. Say 70 years old and if the person's term is still going and they go past 70 then let them finish it and then kick them out. Term limits just stop some from being a career politician and we get a constant flow of ideas.

The problem is in terms of a lot of things we haven't made much progress in 70 years income inequality, bad health care, education regardless of how young the president we have elected in the past decade they haven't gone with slow incremental changes. That is really the main reason I think Biden will lose to Trump his message is let's go back to the status quo.

[Dontrike]

The problem is in terms of a lot of things we haven't made much progress in 70 years income inequality, bad health care, education regardless of how young the president we have elected in the past decade they haven't gone with slow incremental changes. That is really the main reason I think Biden will lose to Trump his message is let's go back to the status quo.

At this point I'd take status quo to "I can fix everything ever and totally won't fail at all" and of course that person fails incredibly.

[draynay]

I thought wild and impossible to fulfill promises were the way to lure former Trump voters.

[Endus]

Thinking any group is apolitical is just blind ignorance.

"Apolitical" means they are not elected and are not hired by a party for that party's term; their employment is based on their professional qualifications, not tied to politics at all.

It doesn't mean they don't vote or have political opinions themselves.

https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-echochambers-27074746

Aah yes, known conspiracy groups like BBC and Princeton University.

That's got nothing to do with either QAnon or the "deep state". That's about the power of the wealthy over politics.

[Theodarzna]

That is different from Qanon, we just call it an oligarchy in the rest of the world. Its something you guys share with Russia.


Oh, and they are on Trump's side, just so you know.

Lol.... Give the near universal endorsement of Hillary by said oligarchs, and the internal problems of bureaucrats resisting Trump; this is some silly stuff from my favorite pretend Communist.

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I head the Deep State goes all the way back to the signers of the Constitution! Why else would there be things in it that only apply to Trump!

That is next level woke.

[Skroe]

So I see the QAnon / Deep State conspiracy stuff has finally made it to MMO-Champion on the backs of the people that we'd all expect to believe just that.

My only question is, what took so long?

[JohnBrown1917]

Lol.... Give the near universal endorsement of Hillary by said oligarchs, and the internal problems of bureaucrats resisting Trump; this is some silly stuff from my favorite pretend Communist.

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That is next level woke.

Must be fun to live in your pretend world.
Don't worry, you'll also see them back Trump in public if Sanders becomes the nominee.


Nobody is naive enough to think the rich elite are not happy with Trump's policies, no matter what they[the 0,01%] claim.

[JohnBrown1917]

Arguably I am at least of the opinion that two diametrically opposed groups of oligarchs are vying with eachother within the USA.

You can see it in the media: both are portraying each other at the enemy. Typically what one would see when manufacturing consent for war...

Sort off, but both sides will be behind Trump if Bernie wins the nominee. They still have shared class interests.
I think its only because of the evangelicals that they are not always on the same line, but they are Trump's most loyal base and are in his cabinet, so no way the gop will ever throw them under the bus.

[Theodarzna]

Arguably I am at least of the opinion that two diametrically opposed groups of oligarchs are vying with eachother within the USA.

You can see it in the media: both are portraying each other as the enemy. Typically what one would see when manufacturing consent for war...

This is a pretty good take. Though I'd say some oligarchs have greater reach than others. Their motives are also diverse, but range from craven self-interest to vanity and self-glorification.

I do agree that if Sanders became the nominee, the rapid speed with which all the pretentious Woke Liberals and #McResisters who've been carrying signs about "Dumbledores Army" will go in for Trump will be astounding. I suspect several posters here will switch quick and it'll be a case of "We have always been at war with East-Asia!"

[Skroe]

Arguably I am at least of the opinion that two diametrically opposed groups of oligarchs are vying with eachother within the USA.

You can see it in the media: both are portraying each other as the enemy. Typically what one would see when manufacturing consent for war...

Oligarchs.... lol... what sad, sad excuse.

I'm going to write an ~$8000 donation to the DNC tomorrow as a Christmas present for standing up to the Constitution and American principles in impeaching Trump.

Do you know how I got to a point in my life where I can write an $8000 check and not worry about it, specifically in about the last five or six years?

I worked my ass off and distinguished myself in my profession. Also I've been part of the investor class since I turned 21, and, well, the economy has been pretty good. While a bunch of Target stockboys and stockgirls write diatribes about "End Stage Capitalism" (a phrase lifted from the 1930s, so you know, not the end stage of capitalism 90 years on) some of us have actually gone about the business of making money and having a comfortable life.

I know its part and parcel of internet forums, filled with crippled people living stunted lives to blame others for their problems and misfortune. But that's not the way the world works at all. 8 years ago I was driving a 2001 Nissan Xterra P.O.S, living paycheck to paycheck in a shit job paying off my considerable student loans. Now I'm driving a BMW 550i, covering my brother's law school loans and doing pretty much whatever I want.

And I did it all while going after Russia for this or that, and then going after Bernie, and then later after Trump.

I did it by working my ass off and making the most of the opportunities given to me.

Sincerely, a 2nd Generation American from a family of immigrants whose last name is not Anglo-saxon.

[Theodarzna]

Your entire post somehow seems to assume that my own opinions are based in a lack of wealth or such... I work in financing and investments, my income is well above the last reported average I know.

My dislike for oligarchs and the elite is not for lack of personal wealth or well-being (although mentally I'm not entirely sure I would quality as being entirely normal). My dislike for capitalism and it's elite is born from observing these elites being smug and their mismanagement fucking over the common people.

The centrist narrative obviously wants to make people believe that there is no oligarchies within democratic societies, but we all know better than that... There's quite literally entire studies and essays out there that time and time again explain that our democracies are closer to oligarchies than actual democracies. Getting even closer to feudalism the more inequality keeps growing too.

There is very little common ground here to discuss further. You going after Bernie, some old dude who has actually worked his ass off for worker rights his entire life, for real - something I can objectively verify - does not improve my opinion of you.

I'm probably a fucking communist, a stalinist only restrained by empathy for other people and keeping an open mind.
I'm a viking. I'm a roman. I want to fuck the rich up, take their stuff for myself and make them miserable.
I want to conquer and crush their smug little bourgeoisie worlds.

So where is our common ground to discuss anything here?

This is something I've noticed at least in Liberal politics. All politics is now personal; and all that is personal is political. One's politics must naturally be an extension of ones life story, an integrated part of the self. If anything I'd say this is what is really Identity Politics, not even identification with a group, but politics and labels as part of ones individual atomized constructed self. This IMHO makes class solidarity difficult because so many are obsessed with politics as ones own personal story about themselves; but also it makes political debate hard because each political issue is in effect an indictment of that persons existence.

You must be in your political boat for some childhood reason, the focus is entirely on the you. How your lifestory and narration made you believe X, Y, or Z. People struggle with the ideas that political ideas are just things to hold, not an integrated part of ones actual existence. That is why say on MMO-OC most debates become about the persona, not any specific thing written.

[Blur4stuff]

If everyone on all sides left feelings at the door and judged based on facts then Trump would be removed from office and his supporters would no longer be his supporters. Based on evidence, he's a horrible person and a terrible president.

The opposite is true for someone like Sanders. Many of the proposals he's made have already been tried elsewhere for decades. We know exactly how well they can work because those countries are doing better than we are in those areas. There's no guesswork here.

[Skroe]

Your entire post somehow seems to assume that my own opinions are based in a lack of wealth or such... I work in financing and investments, my income is well above the last reported average I know.

My dislike for oligarchs and the elite is not for lack of personal wealth or well-being (although mentally I'm not entirely sure I would quality as being entirely normal). My dislike for capitalism and it's elite is born from observing these elites being smug and their mismanagement fucking over the common people.

The centrist narrative obviously wants to make people believe that there is no oligarchies within democratic societies, but we all know better than that... There's quite literally entire studies and essays out there that time and time again explain that our democracies are closer to oligarchies than actual democracies. Getting even closer to feudalism the more inequality keeps growing too.

There is very little common ground here to discuss further. You going after Bernie, some old dude who has actually worked his ass off for worker rights his entire life, for real - something I can objectively verify - does not improve my opinion of you.

I'm probably a fucking communist, a stalinist only restrained by empathy for other people and keeping an open mind.
I'm a Viking. I'm a Roman. I want to fuck the rich up, take their stuff for myself and make them miserable.
I want to conquer and crush their smug little bourgeoisie worlds.

So where is our common ground to discuss anything here?

There is much to discuss.

Want to know why us "elites" are smug in our management of the country and the percieved screwing of the common man? Because the common man has no fucking clue what they want.

Not a clue. They can barely wipe their own ass and their own affairs. It's kind of funny in the modern context, where Americans are better educated than ever, that we're still making some kind of ridiculous play to the intrinsic almighty wisdom of the blue collar working man. It's some kind of dated praise wisdom in parochial ignorance. No, the forgotten people don't know best. Not remotely.

America has always been this, and it's been good for it. We don't have a British-style Aristocracy. But we have had a soft form of a patrician-plebian divide since our founding. The educated and the uneducated. The managers and the workers. Call it what you will.

Evidence abounds over the last 50 years on the failure of the common man to work in their own best interests, and paradoxically to your argument, the surprising failure of elites to stand up and tell them no.

Shall we review some of them? Let's.

I remember about 20 years ago when the debate was in 40 years Social Security would be come insolvent, and Medicare and Medicaid would eat up ever larger parts of the budget and squeeze our discretionary spending. The country identified the problem, before the turn of the millennium (and before that actually). Point being "we need to do something to make it sustainable, largely for the working man who doesn't have 401ks and could afford private health insurance). And here we are 20 years later... basically zero progress. What happened? We've had 20 years of the common man punishing politicians who told the truth - that they would need to pay a lot more taxes, see severe benefit cuts, or both to fix the problem. They instead rewarded politicians who put Medicare Part D on the national credit card, who left taxation and benefits of big social saftey net programs to be solved decades hence, stiffing future generations (people's children) in the name of the present. We have seen, big picture, the largest transfer of wealth from young to old in our history.

All because the common man loved its benefits but didn't want to truly think hard about how they were being paid for.

Or what about climate change? How better the US's climate footprint would have been if after Three Mile Island, our elites actually told the common man "you're stupid and wrong for fearing nuclear energy, which is clean and unlimited and very safe", and kept building nuclear reactors. If there had been reform to the nuclear industry that brought down costs and made producing them on the order of making a coal fired plant. Instead, construction has halted for nearly 4 years, with only a few reactors going up, as the common man's not in my back yard ignorance has created a situation whereby the US reducing its carbon footprint in a meaningful manner rests on the common man eventually changing its opinion about that. Oh and also about higher energy bills as utilities switch to renewables, something the common man is steadfastly against.

What of the Global War on Terror, aka the biggest strategic miscalculation in US history? It was the Common man and a fear that Al Qaeda, and then ISIS, was going to come to their small towns and rape their daughters, that encouraged an 18 year war that no President and no General has the courage to tell the American people should have been ended in 2005. Despite only a handful of incidents, we have to engage in security theater at the airport, and have created a massive government surveillance regime, all so the common man, who does not accept the statistics related to the incredibly low terrorism risk, can feel safe in their little homes from the scary brown people and their foreign religion. If the common man had any sense, there would be no quandry in Afghanistan. The quandary is that American leaders have to talk to the American people like frightened children on the topic of terrorism.

So I don't want to hear it about the innate wisdom of the common man. The common man is a knuckledragging slob barely more sentient than your average zebra. When they see the lion, their hearts thump and then gallop away with the rest of the heard, and as other lions pop out of the brush they stick with the heard and twist around until they've outrun it (nevermind the zebra that trips and gets eaten). And then when they think they've reached safety, they forget all about it, until the lions do it again.

Elites and expertise have made a good country great, the end. If left up to the common man, we would have collectively killed ourselves 150 years ago. Because, as you may recall, even back then, the wisdom of the common man was such that Northern blood was not worth saving Southern slaves and bringing back in the rebel states. Lincoln won the Civil War, because capable Generals delivered timely victories that allowed him to override the common man.

[Endus]

This is something I've noticed at least in Liberal politics. All politics is now personal; and all that is personal is political. One's politics must naturally be an extension of ones life story, an integrated part of the self. If anything I'd say this is what is really Identity Politics, not even identification with a group, but politics and labels as part of ones individual atomized constructed self. This IMHO makes class solidarity difficult because so many are obsessed with politics as ones own personal story about themselves; but also it makes political debate hard because each political issue is in effect an indictment of that persons existence.

This has been true for basically everyone, on all sides of the political spectrum, for about as long as we've had politics. Nothing's new or changed in this. Politics has always been "identity politics". Economics is identity politics, at its root. Military power is identity politics. City planning is identity politics. Not just now, but always. Going back not just decades, or centuries, but thousands of years.

What you've "discovered" is the concept of politics itself.

[Edge-]

This has been true for basically everyone, on all sides of the political spectrum, for about as long as we've had politics. Nothing's new or changed in this. Politics has always been "identity politics". Economics is identity politics, at its root. Military power is identity politics. City planning is identity politics. Not just now, but always. Going back not just decades, or centuries, but thousands of years.

What you've "discovered" is the concept of politics itself.

It's just that "identity politics" in the US historically benefited white folk, so it was never anything directly on their radar. Now that the concerns of others are being taken as seriously, some people are unhappy to lose their privileged position.

[Theodarzna]

This has been true for basically everyone, on all sides of the political spectrum, for about as long as we've had politics. Nothing's new or changed in this. Politics has always been "identity politics". Economics is identity politics, at its root. Military power is identity politics. City planning is identity politics. Not just now, but always. Going back not just decades, or centuries, but thousands of years.

What you've "discovered" is the concept of politics itself.

No, I've discovered that some people prefer a politics that is more a plebiscite about their own personal self-construction, not a politics about ideas of any kind.

I've discovered that what masquerades as Socialism is merely Liberal narcissism that enjoys a good cosplay and ever more inventive pronouns. We have merely a form of power legitimation in the form of a secular religion in Wokeness that serves nobody but the elite.