Mega-Thread: Democratic 2020 Primaries

[tyrlaan]

The message one gets from this crop of Democrats is that we must drain and dry that Rio Grande, Level the land to ease the passage of Central America into North America. Let them come in their millions, no, in their billions. Decriminalize crossings. Disband ICE. Deify DACA. Deny no asylum claim. Table a marshal plan for Central America. Immigrants are Americans, only better and more inspiring. A message great for convincing illegals to get their future kids to be loyal democrats.

The hyperbole here is so strong, I'm surprised it didn't crack my monitor while I read it. And most of it is false.

The big thing that gets lost to the bullhorn GOP bullshit is that most Dem candidates want to repeal Section 1325 and revert to when crossing the border outside of the legal parameters counts as a civil offense. That's not decriminalizing crossings, it's fixing a dumbass complexity in the law that exposes opportunities for abuse, like, say, Trump building concentration camps at the border.

I feel like now's a good time to also remind that crossing the border is not fundamentally illegal if someone is seeking asylum. It's only illegal once a person elects not to pursue asylum.

I've heard a total of ZERO candidates say they want to "deny no asylum claim". I have heard candidates say they want to buff up staffing so we can hear more asylum claims, allowing for asylum seekers to get their hearing much closer to when they arrive rather than the months or more they can currently wait (or get imprisoned instead of even getting a hearing, per current administration shenanigans).

[Theodarzna]

The hyperbole here is so strong, I'm surprised it didn't crack my monitor while I read it. And most of it is false.

The big thing that gets lost to the bullhorn GOP bullshit is that most Dem candidates want to repeal Section 1325 and revert to when crossing the border outside of the legal parameters counts as a civil offense. That's not decriminalizing crossings, it's fixing a dumbass complexity in the law that exposes opportunities for abuse, like, say, Trump building concentration camps at the border.

I feel like now's a good time to also remind that crossing the border is not fundamentally illegal if someone is seeking asylum. It's only illegal once a person elects not to pursue asylum.

I've heard a total of ZERO candidates say they want to "deny no asylum claim". I have heard candidates say they want to buff up staffing so we can hear more asylum claims, allowing for asylum seekers to get their hearing much closer to when they arrive rather than the months or more they can currently wait (or get imprisoned instead of even getting a hearing, per current administration shenanigans).

It is making mass migrations of people a lot easier to do, since it will be rare to expel someone over a civil offense. As for concentration camps, yes, Trump, and Obama before him are expelling people who have no business being in the country. I think a real question on the immigration issue is "On what grounds can we deny someone resettlement into the United States?"

[tyrlaan]

It is making mass migrations of people a lot easier to do, since it will be rare to expel someone over a civil offense. As for concentration camps, yes, Trump, and Obama before him are expelling people who have no business being in the country. I think a real question on the immigration issue is "On what grounds can we deny someone resettlement into the United States?"

You can't empirically argue if Trump is expelling people for the right reasons because he separates families and detains children before they are event vetted to see if they're seeking asylum or not.


I don't understand people's problem with immigration in the first place to be honest. At least, not any issues that are grounded in reality.

We have no crisis when it comes to influx, which has been on steady decline for over a decade.

They don't "take our jobs" because people don't take the jobs undocumented workers take, hence why companies hire undocumented workers.

They don't leech off our system because they pay into the system through taxes.

There's plenty to be bothered by with respect to how we handle immigrants and immigration, but none of it has to do with any of the classic GOP talking points.

[Felya]

You can't empirically argue if Trump is expelling people for the right reasons because he separates families and detains children before they are event vetted to see if they're seeking asylum or not.


I don't understand people's problem with immigration in the first place to be honest. At least, not any issues that are grounded in reality.

We have no crisis when it comes to influx, which has been on steady decline for over a decade.

They don't "take our jobs" because people don't take the jobs undocumented workers take, hence why companies hire undocumented workers.

They don't leech off our system because they pay into the system through taxes.

There's plenty to be bothered by with respect to how we handle immigrants and immigration, but none of it has to do with any of the classic GOP talking points.

Theo is an immigrant from Britain... at least she claimed as much a while ago.

[I Push Buttons]

They don't "take our jobs" because people don't take the jobs undocumented workers take, hence why companies hire undocumented workers.

Companies hire them because they artificially suppress wages... The age old argument of "Americans won't do those jobs" is because of shit like this; Americans would be more than willing to take those jobs, or any jobs, if they got paid enough... If I have a job that needs doing and I offer some amount of money and no one is interested in the job for that pay... That job still needs doing, so if I want it done I need to offer more pay, eventually I will offer enough that people are interested... But there is presently no pressure for such pay increases, because employers (particularly in agriculture) can just import hundreds of thousands of H2-A/B workers to work for minimum wage and there are hundreds of thousands if not millions more undocumented migrants already here willing to work for just as little, if not less...

And specifically with regard to undocumented migrants, many hire them because their labor hearkens back to the good old days when workers had no rights... And they can work them in unsafe conditions, with abnormally long hours, for low (often illegally low) pay and all that jazz because undocumented immigrants are powerless to oppose such treatment.

They don't leech off our system because they pay into the system through taxes.

Huge swaths of undocumented workers don't pay any taxes (inb4 someone goes "REEEE sales tax!!") because they are paid under the table, often times less than even minimum wage.

And poor people in general pay almost nothing in taxes by virtue of being poor; so even if they work above board (with falsified documents since technically none of their work will be above board since its illegal to hire undocumented immigrants), with automatic deductions and the like, it would amount to very little in taxation. So to act like millions of uneducated poor people will be some massive boon to tax revenue is just downright retarded. And considering idiots like Warren's plan is to grant amnesty to everyone here illegally and shortly thereafter grant them a path to citizenship... They will not only not be a tax boon, they would in short order be yet another burden on the welfare state, once again, by virtue of being poor... Because that's the entire point of a welfare state, to help poor people like them...

Oh and then she also plans to revamp the immigration system so an unlimited stream of even more poor, uneducated people who would rely on such services can flow into the country, forever; that's not really conducive to the long term viability of that system, don't you think? And the problem (that is, people relying on the welfare state to get by) will only get worse as the years go by and more and more work is lost to automation/being exported abroad.

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Judging by their hatred of Nate Silver and the media in general, it looks like the Bernie Bros are revving up to throw another election.

https://twitter.com/natesilver538/st...48476086374400

[Cthulhu 2020]

Theo is an immigrant from Britain... at least she claimed as much a while ago.

Not Britain, but another country. So of course she's a white immigrant who argues that the mixing of cultures will bring about the apocalypse because people will naturally repel the idea of a mixed immigrant society and start shooting nukes at each other across state lines.

See, it's fine for THEO to immigrate, just not people of a different skin color who have a slightly different culture. Everyone must stay in their respective land mass areas and not move from them, else we invoke said apocalypse when mixing occurs.

[Vodenbog]

Not Britain, but another country.

Theodarzna is from Wales.

[tyrlaan]

Companies hire them because they artificially suppress wages... The age old argument of "Americans won't do those jobs" is because of shit like this; Americans would be more than willing to take those jobs, or any jobs, if they got paid enough... If I have a job that needs doing and I offer some amount of money and no one is interested in the job for that pay... That job still needs doing, so if I want it done I need to offer more pay, eventually I will offer enough that people are interested... But there is presently no pressure for such pay increases, because employers (particularly in agriculture) can just import hundreds of thousands of H2-A/B workers to work for minimum wage and there are hundreds of thousands if not millions more undocumented migrants already here willing to work for just as little, if not less...

And specifically with regard to undocumented migrants, many hire them because their labor hearkens back to the good old days when workers had no rights... And they can work them in unsafe conditions, with abnormally long hours, for low (often illegally low) pay and all that jazz because undocumented immigrants are powerless to oppose such treatment.

If we run with this take on the situation, the problem is shitty labor laws and a crap federal minimum wage. So lets fix those instead of blaming immigrants.

Huge swaths of undocumented workers don't pay any taxes (inb4 someone goes "REEEE sales tax!!") because they are paid under the table, often times less than even minimum wage.

And poor people in general pay almost nothing in taxes by virtue of being poor; so even if they work above board (with falsified documents since technically none of their work will be above board since its illegal to hire undocumented immigrants), with automatic deductions and the like, it would amount to very little in taxation. So to act like millions of uneducated poor people will be some massive boon to tax revenue is just downright retarded. And considering idiots like Warren's plan is to grant amnesty to everyone here illegally and shortly thereafter grant them a path to citizenship... They will not only not be a tax boon, they would in short order be yet another burden on the welfare state, once again, by virtue of being poor... Because that's the entire point of a welfare state, to help poor people like them...

Okay, you can calm down there bud. I didn't say they "pay for themselves". I said they pay into the system. Oh and don't use "retarded" as an insult (if you want to be taken seriously), it's a legit medical condition.

If you consider anyone that's poor to be a leech, I can't help you be a less shitty person. But again, that's not an immigration, it's more of what I said above. Fix labor laws and minimum wage.

Also by your own admission, the "problem" is that undocumented immigrants are paid shit because companies can get away with it by the very nature of them being undocumented. Is your argument then that if they become documented immigrants they will reap better benefits and possibly move out of the poverty situation you have outlined here (in which case, win!) or that they'll still get exploited (in which case I again refer you to fixing labor laws and minimum wage)?

Also, I've read Warren's plan and don't recall anything in it granting amnesty to all undocumented immigrants, but it was a while ago that I read it. Can you point me to where it says this?

Oh and then she also plans to revamp the immigration system so an unlimited stream of even more poor, uneducated people who would rely on such services can flow into the country, forever; that's not really conducive to the long term viability of that system, don't you think? And the problem (that is, people relying on the welfare state to get by) will only get worse as the years go by and more and more work is lost to automation/being exported abroad.

Could you point to this part as well?

[Ghostpanther]

Could you point to this part as well?

https://thefederalist.com/2019/07/12...united-states/


She wants to make it a civil disobedence, but not the same as it is now. Basically decriminalizing it.

Warren for all practical purposes, is just a female version of Sanders.

[Edge-]

She wants to make it a civil disobedence.

No, she wants to make it a civil violation. Civil disobedience is a protest tactic.

[I Push Buttons]

If we run with this take on the situation, the problem is shitty labor laws and a crap federal minimum wage. So lets fix those instead of blaming immigrants.

We already have those labor laws... The reason employers exploit undocumented immigrants is because they are undocumented and working here illegally. So they can make them work without proper safety equipment, for 60 hours a week with no overtime, at $6/hour and shit like that... All of those things are already in violation of labor laws, but to a shady greedy business owner interested in making the most money possible, what's a few more violations on top of already violating labor laws in the first place by hiring undocumented workers? Especially when they know they will more than likely get away with it? As pointed out all the time, undocumented migrants are afraid of the US government... Many are afraid to go to the police when crimes are committed against them, they are afraid to go to labor boards when their labor rights are violated, they are supposedly even afraid to participate in the census if the census taker asks them if they are a citizen or not. Because to them, interacting with the authorities means revealing their undocumented status to said authorities, which means they may face deportation, so they don't interact with them.

Okay, you can calm down there bud. I didn't say they "pay for themselves". I said they pay into the system. Oh and don't use "retarded" as an insult (if you want to be taken seriously), it's a legit medical condition.

Nah, I call retarded things retarded.

If you consider anyone that's poor to be a leech, I can't help you be a less shitty person. But again, that's not an immigration, it's more of what I said above. Fix labor laws and minimum wage.

I don't consider them to be leeches, in fact I am of the opinion our welfare state should be made even more robust and accommodating. I simply live in reality, not the fantasy socialist utopia where everyone poor the world over can move to the US and live in infinite peaceful abundance provided by the state by taxing those evil rich people that fringe leftists delude themselves into thinking our society can become if only we vote for their retarded candidates.

There is only so much to go around and our system can only just barely provide for our citizens in need already. That system would cease to exist if we invite millions, if not tens of millions of additional people who would eventually qualify for those benefits by virtue of their lot in life into the country.

Also by your own admission, the "problem" is that undocumented immigrants are paid shit because companies can get away with it by the very nature of them being undocumented. Is your argument then that if they become documented immigrants they will reap better benefits and possibly move out of the poverty situation you have outlined here (in which case, win!) or that they'll still get exploited (in which case I again refer you to fixing labor laws and minimum wage)?

Guess you have missed the tens of millions of Americans who live in poverty in the US. Merely ensuring the labor laws actually apply to undocumented migrants and raising the minimum wage won't miraculously lift them from poverty just as it hasn't for the aforementioned tens of millions of impoverished Americans.

Also, I've read Warren's plan and don't recall anything in it granting amnesty to all undocumented immigrants, but it was a while ago that I read it. Can you point me to where it says this?

Could you point to this part as well?

Just Google her immigration plan, every major news outlet has summaries of what she has discussed.

Here's one of the first Google results:
https://medium.com/@teamwarren/a-fai...m-8fff69cd674e

Some of the big things Warren's immigration plan calls for:

- Abolishing ICE (no deportations apart from criminals, which can be handled by someone else); she also wants to 'remake' CBP, whatever that means.
- No immigration detention (once again, apart from criminals).
- Decriminalization of illegal entry.
(The above three are a functionally open border, anyone can come here, no one will be stopped/detained, and no one will be deported in such a system; once again, unless they are criminals.)
- An 'easy' path to citizenship for anyone and everyone, both those already here illegally and any who may come in the future.
(Decriminalization and eventual citizenship for all is de facto amnesty.)

When asked how she would prevent a massive stream of unlimited people flowing into the US under her deluded system, she simply vaguely talks about her idea for something along the lines of Julian Castro's 'Central American Marshall Plan', where she will supposedly spend hundreds of billions of dollars to improve Central America so no one will want to leave and come here in the first place. A farcical fantasy.

[Ghostpanther]

No, she wants to make it a civil violation. Civil disobedience is a protest tactic.

Technically you are correct. So thanks for the correction. But she basically wants to make it more attractive for illegals to pour across the border.

[zenkai]

Technically you are correct. So thanks for the correction. But she basically wants to make it more attractive for illegals to pour across the border.

"Hey guys, we need cheap labor, should we make work visa's easier to get?"

"Nah let's make it easier to sneak in and have people work under the table instead, who needs tax dollars!"

[Edge-]

"Hey guys, we need cheap labor, should we make work visa's easier to get?"

"Nah let's make it easier to sneak in and have people work under the table instead, who needs tax dollars!"

Hello, two non-mutually exclusive statements that have nothing to do with each other.

That's not the argument of any Democrats right now, and as a party Democrats have been more focused on going after those that employ undocumented labor than Republicans (see: the Mississippi raids and the lack of any action against the employer thus far).

[DarkTZeratul]

We already have those labor laws... The reason employers exploit undocumented immigrants is because they are undocumented and working here illegally. So they can make them work without proper safety equipment, for 60 hours a week with no overtime, at $6/hour and shit like that... All of those things are already in violation of labor laws, but to a shady greedy business owner interested in making the most money possible, what's a few more violations on top of already violating labor laws in the first place by hiring undocumented workers? Especially when they know they will more than likely get away with it?

So the obvious solution then is to go after companies that employ undocumented immigrants. So why aren't you advocating for that? Why aren't the Republicans doing that? It's like trying to stop the drug trade by arresting users and ignoring dealers.

[I Push Buttons]

So the obvious solution then is to go after companies that employ undocumented immigrants. So why aren't you advocating for that? Why aren't the Republicans doing that? It's like trying to stop the drug trade by arresting users and ignoring dealers.

By all means, go for it...

https://www.apnews.com/e7113c50a6fd4d2688fc2f2b8a9a91cd

But as this article points out, it is often much more difficult to go after the employers for a variety of reasons.

Its harder to make a case against them, they have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that they knowingly hired undocumented migrants. Many of them go through intermediaries or even commit fraud to obfuscate the fact that they are hiring illegals. Like "oh we just paid this temp agency for employees, we didn't know they sent us undocumented migrants" and the temp agency doesn't even exist kinds of things; so an even greater burden of proof needed. Or knowing they are using false identification information, but simply not checking it thoroughly and then feigning ignorance later, etc., how do you prove they knew and are just feigning ignorance in a court of law? Plus they are wealthier/better off, so they are better equipped to fight the charges.

[tyrlaan]

Nah, I call retarded things retarded.

You objectively do not, based on the actual definition of the word.

But since you insist on using a literal medical condition as an insult, I'm done talking to you.

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Technically you are correct. So thanks for the correction. But she basically wants to make it more attractive for illegals to pour across the border.

If by more attractive you mean "won't have your children taken from you and get placed in a concentration camp and you might even get to file your asylum claim within a reasonable timeframe", then I guess guilty as charged.

[NED funded]

Warren is beating sanders in new polling. Tick tock.

[Cthulhu 2020]

Warren is beating sanders in new polling. Tick tock.

Sanders has been on the chopping block since the start. He's offered nothing particularly new since 2016 and doesn't have wide appeal like Warren does. If the progressives want to stand a chance at the nomination, Sanders needs to throw his support and weight behind Warren or the progressives will once again whine about how the establishment centrist won and they got cheated out of a nomination by the DNC in some dumb conspiracy theory.

[Skroe]

Sanders has been on the chopping block since the start. He's offered nothing particularly new since 2016 and doesn't have wide appeal like Warren does. If the progressives want to stand a chance at the nomination, Sanders needs to throw his support and weight behind Warren or the progressives will once again whine about how the establishment centrist won and they got cheated out of a nomination by the DNC in some dumb conspiracy theory.

I expect the 2020 whine to be "winner take all voting is BULLSHIT. The DNC rigged the game*"







*Editors note: it's state party's that decide winner take all, proportional, ranked, caucus, primary or flipping a coin. The DNC has nothing to do with it.