Mega-Thread: Democratic 2020 Primaries

[Elegiac]

And Trump didn't?
Dude's been on a popular tv show...how could anyone not know who he was?

No, he didn't. One of Trump's main things was that he was a political outsider with a vague record.

Sanders has been in office since Rita Repulsa was first imprisoned on the moon and after 2016 now has universal recognition of his name and policies.

[nonameelf]

Oh no, Sanders didn't see things as purely black and white like a child would. Clearly he is really the devil!

Get better attacks, you lazy fucks.

[Draco-Onis]

No. He did. I don't think you quite grasp the magnitude of what he did. It was a monumental mistake. Not really different in scope than Mitt Romney's 47% in a sense. One bad quote can sink a campaign.

He just gave Trump a political nuclear weapon. In October and November Trump is going carpet bomb Florida with that political nuclear weapon and get JUST enough Cuban-Americans to stay home or hold their nose and vote Trump.

He completely fucked himself there. Truly. Nobody did it but him. He did it to himself. This is exactly the shit I've been saying about him and his goddamn cult. They want validation more than anything in the world. They haven't stopped for a second to think "hey, is the things I'm saying and hawking going to enhance my electoral position in the places I need to win".

I just don't understand what goes through Old Man Sanders's head. You need Florida and you start talking positively about Castro in even the smallest degree. Like... is he a stupid man? Because that's the kind of things stupid men do.

Trump needs nothing else from Sanders. Sanders gave him the perfect soundbite to confirm "Sanders is a communist". And it will work, because the American voter is NOT discerning.

He fucked up. Badly.

* looks at the shit ton of bad things Trump has said and done in regards to Latinos*

I am sorry but welcome to 2020 let me know when you get back from 2008, 2012

[Skroe]

Bernie fucked up...so voters will view the guy that says all kinds of shit daily as a better alternative...?
Logic please.

Yup. Because to swing voters in places like Florida "Asshole we know" >>>> "The Communist" when "the communist" shows that it's more than just a baseless political attack.

That's why Trump is going to slaughter Sanders in Florida now. Because to many swing voters, Trump being a piece of crap is actually less-worse than, in their eyes, Bernie being Fidel Castro 2.0. They'll take the asshole over Castro reborn.

Progressives, so far up their ass about the political ideology, will wonder how that is the case. It is because in swing states, people don't entirely agree with the "Status Quo must go" stand that has been repeated lately. And it is those voters who will chose the President.

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Sanders has been in office since Rita Repulsa was first imprisoned on the moon and after 2016 now has universal recognition of his name and policies.

Legit LOL'd at this truly awesome reference.

[Endus]

If it were only "a few comments".

This is a repeated trend owing to Bernie's difficulty in admitting error - namely skirting the line between praise and milquetoast "condemnation" of left wing authoritarian regimes in Latin America. This has been a thing for the entirety of his political career and in a lot of ways stems from the worst contrarian tendencies on the left - see "Pol Pot to Win".

Said trend as well as his messaging which is highly reminiscent of said left wing regimes in Latin America are a function of how he is perceived. And in Florida, a critical state which has a uniquely flavored Latino population, Sanders' messaging is being poorly received.

And here's the thing. It's not even a function of policy - it's solely a function of message. Rather than do the tactically smart thing of just disavowing these regimes and focusing instead on relating your positions to something like - I don't know, the New Deal - Sanders is making a shibboleth out of defending leftism's good name for absolutely no gain.

There is no "error" to admit.

He gave a nuanced and qualified response, rather than lying to protect the feelings of the willfully ignorant. Sure, that lie might be "tactically smart", in that people often prefer comfortable lies to uncomfortable truths, but it's still a fucking lie. I'd rather not see a candidate mark themselves with lies, like that, particularly not when trying to present themselves as an alternative to the Liemaster Supreme, Donald Trump.

You want Bernie to be a more-savvy Trump. I'd rather he just be a decent, honest person, and that's what you're attacking him for.

[Elegiac]

It brings a tear to my eye when there is one progressive who actually gets it. Like seriously... Run on "the New Deal Reborn." Something that may actually grab in active older voters in swing states. Not the Green New Deal. "New Deal 2.0". Call it something that is marketable. That is seen as a domestic political success.

Funnily enough, "Green New Deal" actually had its intended effect; the policy is fairly popular in suburban and swing districts.

Which is, again, the point. We're not seeing a news incident every sixth months with AOC refusing to condemn PETA or Greenpeace for associated bullshit in order to defend "environmentalism's good name", whereas Bernie has a perennial problem with making excuses for authoritarian regimes in Latin America because...it's insulting to leftism, I guess?

Like I said; I cast my primary ballot for Warren and have done my due deference in voting for progressive substance and sagacious leadership. The game is now Sanders and his camp's to lose.

[Shadowferal]

I won't go with the Devil I know.
I'll go for the person who I know isn't the Devil.

[Skroe]

* looks at the shit ton of bad things Trump has said and done in regards to Latinos*

I am sorry but welcome to 2020 let me know when you get back from 2008, 2012

Trump is held to a different standard. Is that not clear now? By carpet bombing people who his obnoxiousness, he has inoculated himself. Sanders's chief political job is to show he is not dangerous (to swing voters) compared to Trump. Him praising a communist dictator makes Trump's job in showing Sanders is more dangerous, very, very easy.

This is not supposed to be fair, progressive. Sanders faces an uphill battle as is. And he just turned his political climb up Mount McKinley into a climb up K2. Stop protecting your man and demand he not be such a royal fucking idiot if he wants to win.

Fuck. It really seems like I want Bernie to ACTUALLY win the Presidency so we can see Trump in a Prison cell more than his fucken cult who wants to just feel validation and is going to barrel through every stupid trap on the way to a miserable defeat.

[Elegiac]

There is no "error" to admit.

He gave a nuanced and qualified response, rather than lying to protect the feelings of the willfully ignorant. Sure, that lie might be "tactically smart", in that people often prefer comfortable lies to uncomfortable truths, but it's still a fucking lie. I'd rather not see a candidate mark themselves with lies, like that, particularly not when trying to present themselves as an alternative to the Liemaster Supreme, Donald Trump.

You want Bernie to be a more-savvy Trump. I'd rather he just be a decent, honest person, and that's what you're attacking him for.

You're right, I'm not wanting him to give a "nuanced and qualified response".

I'm not wanting him to gratify that line of questioning with a response, period, because it's literally bait. There is no good answer that can be given, and that is the point - it is intended to create points of friction in the voting public where there are none.

There is no political gain to be had in engaging in public debate over the finer points of Fidel Castro's regime especially when a critical state runs the risk of turning red as a result.

I said the exact same fucking thing when people were making jabs at Warren for not answering the taxes question on her healthcare plan. She was right to avoid it, because it was bait.

[Skroe]

I won't go with the Devil I know.
I'll go for the person who I know isn't the Devil.

Yeah. That's you.

If you don't live in one of those swing states and aren't a swing voter, you don't matter. I don't, and neither do I.

270 electoral votes. The only number that matters. 270.

Democrats win by winning North Carolina, Florida or Wisconsin and holding everything else they had in 2016. Lose one of those, and Trump gets re-elected. That's the problem.

The campaign must be catered to that problem. If Bernie Sanders spends one fucking minute in the throngs of his cult in Brooklyn after July, he'll deserve to lose those three states.

This is how you fucking win.

[Draco-Onis]

Trump is held to a different standard. Is that not clear now? By carpet bombing people who his obnoxiousness, he has inoculated himself. Sanders's chief political job is to show he is not dangerous (to swing voters) compared to Trump. Him praising a communist dictator makes Trump's job in showing Sanders is more dangerous, very, very easy.

This is not supposed to be fair, progressive. Sanders faces an uphill battle as is. And he just turned his political climb up Mount McKinley into a climb up K2. Stop protecting your man and demand he not be such a royal fucking idiot if he wants to win.

Fuck. It really seems like I want Bernie to ACTUALLY win the Presidency so we can see Trump in a Prison cell more than his fucken cult who wants to just feel validation and is going to barrel through every stupid trap on the way to a miserable defeat.

If you want a political analysis there it is there is no way to know even if Bernie did say Castro was the best person in the world (he did not) be affected. The population of Cubans that care about Castro are the older and dying Cuban the population under 65 could not give two fucks about it. There is also two other factors we don't know how the new Puerto Rican population that surged in Florida and people who have had their voting rights restored will effect the election.

We are still in the primary we don't even know who will win the whole thing this freak out about Sanders is down insane. I would be much more panicked if mayor Pete was the one leading the field.

[Endus]

Yup. Because to swing voters in places like Florida "Asshole we know" >>>> "The Communist" when "the communist" shows that it's more than just a baseless political attack.

If you think Sanders is a communist, you are, to be utterly frank, an idiot. Someone who refuses to inform themselves and just blindly believes whatever horse shit their betters feed them. I know dogs that have better critical thinking skills than those people; my dog at least learns to not run after the ball I didn't throw after I fake the throw a couple times. These idiots, every time, "BALL! Where ball? Ball must be FURTHER, Master wouldn't fake a throw! RUN RUN LOOK BALL!"

It is just a baseless lie. Not "political attack", a straight-up lie.

He's a Democratic Socialist. They're not scary. The first Democratic Socialist elected in North America was Tommy Douglas, father of Canadian healthcare. Bernie's in really good company, to anyone who's not a gullible idiot.

[Elegiac]

This is how you fucking win.

Just to reinforce this, this isn't a function of "victory at any cost".

This isn't compromising on a policy. It isn't compromising on M4A, or climate change, or whatever. Leftism does not stand to lose by not defending Castro's regime in the same way leftism doesn't stand to lose by not defending the USSR or the PRC.

It's just bad politics and exactly the sort of character deficit that I have pointed out before.

[Skroe]

There is no "error" to admit.

He gave a nuanced and qualified response, rather than lying to protect the feelings of the willfully ignorant. Sure, that lie might be "tactically smart", in that people often prefer comfortable lies to uncomfortable truths, but it's still a fucking lie. I'd rather not see a candidate mark themselves with lies, like that, particularly not when trying to present themselves as an alternative to the Liemaster Supreme, Donald Trump.

You want Bernie to be a more-savvy Trump. I'd rather he just be a decent, honest person, and that's what you're attacking him for.

Man... a nuanced and qualified response... In an American election. Are you kidding me.

By trying to seriously argued that, you illustrate you do not understand the American voter and American politics whatsoever.

Yes. That is exactly what Bernie gave.... and it is completely unacceptable with how campaigns and messaging are run in 2020 America and how voter-candidate interaction is handled. All he did, was give Trump 2020 a nuclear weapon to use on him in Florida. Because that nuanced and qualified response will be cut down to a brutal 30 second add that will play once and hour, for two months.

And it _will_ serve to successfully alienate Cuban-Americans from Democrats. And without them, there is no Florida for Democrats.


Endus, I say this with all due respect... you're far too intellectual and intelligent for the bar fight that is American politics. This is not what you think it is. This is not fencing. This is a brawl. And everyone here doesn't give a crap about facts. This is about feeling. I wish it were different. But that is the battlefield.


There is no win condition in _ever_ saying even the slightest thing nice about Fidel Castro. It does not expand any voting base whatsoever. So to hell with the nuanced and qualified response. It does not advance Bernie's goal of actually winning votes to capture an electoral college total, at all.

[JohnBrown1917]

Oh no, Sanders didn't see things as purely black and white like a child would. Clearly he is really the devil!

Get better attacks, you lazy fucks.

No, but you see, any country in the Americas resisting US imperialism is very bad. If Americans say Batista would have been a great leader for Cuba, it must be true.

[Endus]

You're right, I'm not wanting him to give a "nuanced and qualified response".

I'm not wanting him to gratify that line of questioning with a response, period, because it's literally bait. There is no good answer that can be given, and that is the point - it is intended to create points of friction in the voting public where there are none.

There is no political gain to be had in engaging in public debate over the finer points of Fidel Castro's regime especially when a critical state runs the risk of turning red as a result.

I said the exact same fucking thing when people were making jabs at Warren for not answering the taxes question on her healthcare plan. She was right to avoid it, because it was bait.

I'm basically at the point where my position is that, if you have to tell the American people comforting lies to keep them placid and happy, because they're too ignorant and/or stupid to understand anything more complicated than a Disney princess film, then the USA is already on the decline and there's no way to save it. And trying is just going to make things worse, in the long run.

I'm not ever going to agree that lying to the people to keep them happy is ever the "right choice". Picking a "necessary evil" still means you're choosing to be evil.

[Elegiac]

If you think Sanders is a communist, you are, to be utterly frank, an idiot. Someone who refuses to inform themselves and just blindly believes whatever horse shit their betters feed them.

Speaking as someone who has relatives that lived under the Junta in Greece...yeah, no. We're not talking about trailer trash in Wyoming, we're talking about political refugees from an authoritarian regime.

It might be irrational as all fuck but it's a phenomenon that you have to reckon with.

[Endus]

Man... a nuanced and qualified response... In an American election. Are you kidding me.

That you think that's a ridiculous expectation is, itself, the point.

It shouldn't be. It should be the bare minimum we expect.

Endus, I say this with all due respect... you're far too intellectual and intelligent for the bar fight that is American politics. This is not what you think it is. This is not fencing. This is a brawl.

I think the knives are out, and someone's gonna get stabbed. I think nobody "wins" that kind of fight. Better to just go your separate ways and stop trying to kill each other.

If your principles say that "stabbing people in a bar brawl is bad", someone telling you that you've gotta start stabbing isn't ever going to convince you. Maybe just don't brawl in the first place. Put the knives away, and grow the hell up.

[Skroe]

If you think Sanders is a communist, you are, to be utterly frank, an idiot. Someone who refuses to inform themselves and just blindly believes whatever horse shit their betters feed them. I know dogs that have better critical thinking skills than those people; my dog at least learns to not run after the ball I didn't throw after I fake the throw a couple times. These idiots, every time, "BALL! Where ball? Ball must be FURTHER, Master wouldn't fake a throw! RUN RUN LOOK BALL!"

It is just a baseless lie. Not "political attack", a straight-up lie.

He's a Democratic Socialist. They're not scary. The first Democratic Socialist elected in North America was Tommy Douglas, father of Canadian healthcare. Bernie's in really good company, to anyone who's not a gullible idiot.

Well first of all, thank you for calling my Grandmother an idiot. And before calling her an idiot, you may ask yourself if a 79 year old woman from Latin America who grew up with leftist strongmen saying things similar to what Bernie says (at least superficially), who is then flooded with messaging reinforcing "Bernie is a Communist" by Florida talk radio, Fox News, and her southern conservative neighbors... may, in her own way, be not wrong with the information she has provided, from thinking "Bernie is a Communist".

Don't get me wrong. She hates Trump. She voted for him in 2016... the first time she voted in an American election ever (she became a citizen in 2015). She would vote against him in 2020... for the right candidate. I've asked her. She will vote for Trump if it's Bernie though. Because he's "the communist"

This is one person, but she is not special. These are the people Democrats will need to reach in order to win in November. A logical argument - a nuanced and qualified explanation - will not replace the years of propaganda from Fox News, neighbors and friends, and talk radio. Bernie selling his platform is hard enough with that crowd. But now with his Castro disaster, would my Grandmother, or any grandmother, be exactly wrong to say "oh my god, Trump is right, Bernie is a communist!" given the succcessful propaganda effort towards her thus far? No. It completes a logical argument. Bernie just gave Trump a tremendous, tremendous gift.

You can't argue nuance with these people. You win them only with establishing an emotional bond that will make them say "Trump is lying about what he says about the candidate". This is my grandmother likes Biden. Because she thinks he's a good person and reminds her of my departed Grandfather. Not the policies. The emotional familiarity.

This is what I've been saying for months and you progressives, so pleased with your fucking ideology have just not taken into account. And today, it hurt you. Elections are about emotion. About the heart. It's not about reason, logical and arguments. It is not about the brain. People are not rational. They are emotional. And they will make an emotional decision in the polls, not a computer-like logical one. That is why, for decades, voters have CONSISTENTLY voted against their interest. Because intellectually they may never think they'll be Wealthy, but emotionally they dream of being one.

You can reach votes like my grandmother. If Progressives crawled out of their own ass for five minutes on policy topics.

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That you think that's a ridiculous expectation is, itself, the point.

It shouldn't be. It should be the bare minimum we expect.



I think the knives are out, and someone's gonna get stabbed. I think nobody "wins" that kind of fight. Better to just go your separate ways and stop trying to kill each other.

If your principles say that "stabbing people in a bar brawl is bad", someone telling you that you've gotta start stabbing isn't ever going to convince you. Maybe just don't brawl in the first place. Put the knives away, and grow the hell up.

Yeah we can have the principled fight another year. We can try and make a better America when we don't have a national security incident declaring himself our nation's "highest law enforcement officer" and purging the government of people who won't suck his dick.

I want to triage the situation and get Donald Trump out of office. We can have a long conversation about how to make an better America another year.

Your political viewpoint is unfit for the times. And that's not a compliment. Your way is the way if loss in 2020. May make for a better country, but that's a problem for another day.

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Speaking as someone who has relatives that lived under the Junta in Greece...yeah, no. We're not talking about trailer trash in Wyoming, we're talking about political refugees from an authoritarian regime.

It might be irrational as all fuck but it's a phenomenon that you have to reckon with.

This. Exactly this.

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I'm basically at the point where my position is that, if you have to tell the American people comforting lies to keep them placid and happy, because they're too ignorant and/or stupid to understand anything more complicated than a Disney princess film, then the USA is already on the decline and there's no way to save it. And trying is just going to make things worse, in the long run.

I'm not ever going to agree that lying to the people to keep them happy is ever the "right choice". Picking a "necessary evil" still means you're choosing to be evil.

Your agreement is not required for it to be effective and winning politics. Your assent is not required. Politics of the lowest common denominator is the most reliable type of politics in a democracy.

The United States has to arrest its problems first. We have to halt the slide and triage the bleeding. The much larger problem of fixing how we got there will not be solved the same time, the same way, or int he same election.

Getting out Donald Trump by any means necessary is so not the moment to try and make a larger point about how we should be a better country in how we have our elections. It's a recipe for giving Trump a second term.

[Shadowferal]

As long as you remember to vote for Bernie...