Mega-Thread: Democratic 2020 Primaries

[downnola]

That NPR links goes against the argument that they voted Trump out of revenge, though. Those voters had a 20% approval of Obama, in line with Republican Obama approval numbers and far away from Democrat numbers. More of them considered themselves mild-to-strong Republicans than Democrats (only 10% democrats). Basically, Sanders supporters who voted Trump turned out to be... Republicans?

I think the moral of the story seems to be that Democrats lost a sizable chunk of the Republican base that Sanders would have managed to steal.

The Obama thing doesn't surprise me because progressives often accused Obama of not being progressive enough (he wasn't).



That chart doesn't show that Sanders voters who voted Trump turned out to be Republican. Only 5% were strong Republican vs 10% strong Democrat. There's a lot more not strong dems and lean dem voters than not strong and lean republicans that voted Sanders-Trump.

Combine those numbers with how many strong, not strong, and lean dems that didn't vote at all and you have the bigger picture.

[cubby]

You are talking about the vote blue no matter what. Sanders is a candidate that speaks to the youth in ways that other candidates can never manage to. Biden struggles to form complete sentences for fucks sake.

In your opinion. And if Sanders doesn't get the nomination, he can get out there an get the youth to vote for Biden.

Stop shitting on Biden, you're just helping Trump. We discussed this already.

[Zaktar]

You guys are just in an echo chamber. You don't realize that Biden gets votes. Hence why he's, you know, getting votes. It's just not your media circle where he's popular. Maybe you need to step outside of it for a bit.

I'm not a Biden supporter, so if I want to know why he's popular, I go look at what people are actually saying. Maybe you should do the same.

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Sanders supporters have been treating everybody like trash. Don't play victim here.

So have Biden supporters. This argument is tiresome. Every time someone trots out the "Bernie Bros" label they're being incredibly rude and misidentifying the guy's base. Labels like toxic are attached to people based on their choice of candidate. And it's based on what? Cherry-picked Twitter comments? It's asinine. Over and over again the same oversimplistic message gets repeated with a cute nickname, it's a wonderfully Trumpian tactic.

[downnola]

I'm sure Sanders would support Biden. I'm also sure plenty of Sander's supporters would end up voting for Biden.

But let's stop and appreciate how the dem establishment and most of the media have treated Sanders and his supporters like pure trash for the past several months. They then want to turn around and ask us to support them instead. The only honest response I have to that is, "fuck you".

Maybe instead of demonizing Sanders and his supporters they should put more effort into actually making changes to the party that inspire people under 65 to support and vote for them.

Let's say Biden becomes president. Obviously the easy lay ups like judge appointments will be better. But aside from those, does anyone honestly believe the conditions that gave us Trump will be any different for 2024/2028?

The president doesn't hold all of the power and electing Bernie doesn't get you all the way there. More people like Bernie, Ocasio-Cortez, and Omar need to start filling congress seats. If you really want to change the party then the focus should be congress.

[Zaktar]

In your opinion. And if Sanders doesn't get the nomination, he can get out there an get the youth to vote for Biden.

Stop shitting on Biden, you're just helping Trump. We discussed this already.

And people who shit on "Bernie Bros" or Sanders himself aren't helping Trump?

[Rukh]

So have Biden supporters. This argument is tiresome. Every time someone trots out the "Bernie Bros" label they're being incredibly rude and misidentifying the guy's base. Labels like toxic are attached to people based on their choice of candidate. And it's based on what? Cherry-picked Twitter comments? It's asinine. Over and over again the same oversimplistic message gets repeated with a cute nickname, it's a wonderfully Trumpian tactic.

Biden supporters haven't creating insane baseless conspiracies about how everyone is part of some evil establishment out to make their candidate a victim. Biden supporters haven't been acting like Sanders is some secret Republican plot to help Trump. I'm sorry, but there's no comparison to the hostility of Sanders supporters towards everyone else. It's not bridge building. Its harming your own interests, everyone sees it.

What Sanders supporters get called out on is being divisive jerks. Calling out a divisive jerk isn't being a jerk.

[cubby]

I'm sure Sanders would support Biden. I'm also sure plenty of Sander's supporters would end up voting for Biden.

But let's stop and appreciate how the dem establishment and most of the media have treated Sanders and his supporters like pure trash for the past several months. They then want to turn around and ask us to support them instead. The only honest response I have to that is, "fuck you".

Maybe instead of demonizing Sanders and his supporters they should put more effort into actually making changes to the party that inspire people under 65 to support and vote for them.

Let's say Biden becomes president. Obviously the easy lay ups like judge appointments will be better. But aside from those, does anyone honestly believe the conditions that gave us Trump will be any different for 2024/2028?

Do you think there might be any reasons that some Sanders' supporters have been demonized while other candidates have not?

That question about conditions - do you really think your conclusion would be different with Sanders as President?

[Blade Wolf]

In your opinion. And if Sanders doesn't get the nomination, he can get out there an get the youth to vote for Biden.

Stop shitting on Biden, you're just helping Trump. We discussed this already.

Welcome to primaries where people aren't supposed to hold hands and sing kumbaya

[cubby]

And people who shit on "Bernie Bros" or Sanders himself aren't helping Trump?

They are when they shit on Sanders.

[downnola]

So have Biden supporters. This argument is tiresome. Every time someone trots out the "Bernie Bros" label they're being incredibly rude and misidentifying the guy's base. Labels like toxic are attached to people based on their choice of candidate. And it's based on what? Cherry-picked Twitter comments? It's asinine. Over and over again the same oversimplistic message gets repeated with a cute nickname, it's a wonderfully Trumpian tactic.

I've probably contributed more to Sanders's campaign than you have but sure, Trumpian tactics. Gotcha.

[Zaktar]

Biden supporters haven't creating insane baseless conspiracies about how everyone is part of some evil establishment out to make their candidate a victim. Biden supporters haven't been acting like Sanders is some secret Republican plot to help Trump. I'm sorry, but there's no comparison to the hostility of Sanders supporters towards everyone else. It's not bridge building. Its harming your own interests, everyone sees it.

I don't see it, neither do a lot of people. Don't see much Bridge building toward the progressives coming from Biden supporters either. You say "your own," go ahead and quote where I've been toxic about Biden/his supporters.

[cubby]

Welcome to primaries where people aren't supposed to hold hands and sing kumbaya

No fucking shit buckwheat. Maybe you could take the bigger picture and see beyond the primaries? And start considering just criticizing policies and not making Trump-approved personal attacks on the (D) candidates?

Get the fuck on board. This issue has been addressed numerous times. How the hell do you still not get it?

[omerome]

Disagree. Young voters will come out, both to defeat Trump and because Biden is an attractive candidate (just like Sanders). Just because you don't think people will get behind him doesn't mean they won't.

And the big outlier is the VP - Abrams or someone else would be great. Warren would be fantastic. Both would invigorate the young and get out voters. Bernie getting behind the nominee, if it's not him, would also help.

I am honestly pretty down that Biden is now suddenly propped up as the "guy" right now, but if Warren were to drop out and be his running mate, I would feel a lot better about things. At the same time though, I feel that having her as VP would be under-utilizing her abilities though. It's weird though - a year or so ago, wasn't it expected that it could be a Biden vs. Sanders potential match-up anyway until 43093523480 other democratic candidates decided to throw their names in the ring? So seeing this situation play out isn't a surprise to me.

Regardless, we can't expect that a lot of people will be happy with just having moderates run the country - just like the black vote isn't a monolith, neither is the democratic party. Somehow we have to come together and find ways to bridge the gap between the differing views.

[Rukh]

I don't see it, neither do a lot of people. Don't see much Bridge building toward the progressives coming from Biden supporters either. You say "your own," go ahead and quote where I've been toxic about Biden/his supporters.

LOL you're being toxic towards anyone who doesn't support your god emperor.

[cubby]

I think you will find Biden's message of embracing the republican party will make most progressives vomit and the numbers don't agree with you. Biden's base is very old and he has the hard time with the young vote because there's nothing on his agenda that excites anyone. Heck Biden has 29% enthusiasm so even the old people voting for him don't care for him that much.

A vote for Biden is like getting a root canal you don't want to do it but you have to.

I think you'll find that Biden can work with both sides, and start healing this country, instead of continuing to escalate the divide between the two parties.

[Zaktar]

I've probably contributed more to Sanders's campaign than you have but sure, Trumpian tactics. Gotcha.

Ahh back to the money as a litmus test, solid argument. How much money a person spent has zero to do with whatever tactics they choose to use. So nice attempt at a deflection.

Edit: also as far as I can tell I'm not talking to or about you?

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LOL you're being toxic towards anyone who doesn't support your god emperor.

How so? Be specific.

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They are when they shit on Sanders.

I respect that, would you agree that the label "Bernie Bro" is not just shitting on Sanders, it's shitting on and therefore foolishly alienating his supporters?

[Thepersona]

I think you'll find that Biden can work with both sides, and start healing this country, instead of continuing to escalate the divide between the two parties.

Working with the other side (in this case the gop) is capitulating to them. That's sadly how it is. And democrats NEED to know it. They cannot work with the other side, not when the GOP denies basic science and still thinks that supply side economics works.

[cubby]

I am honestly pretty down that Biden is now suddenly propped up as the "guy" right now, but if Warren were to drop out and be his running mate, I would feel a lot better about things. At the same time though, I feel that having her as VP would be under-utilizing her abilities though. It's weird though - a year or so ago, wasn't it expected that it could be a Biden vs. Sanders potential match-up anyway until 43093523480 other democratic candidates decided to throw their names in the ring? So seeing this situation play out isn't a surprise to me.

Regardless, we can't expect that a lot of people will be happy with just having moderates run the country - just like the black vote isn't a monolith, neither is the democratic party. Somehow we have to come together and find ways to bridge the gap between the differing views.

I'm definitely warm to your idea. Warren was my candidate. I would love to see Biden pick her as his VP - it was my original choice as a ticket outside of Warren/Castro. If Sanders gets the nod, it will be interesting to see who he picks as his VP. Don't really need another progressive, but a woman would be a good choice. We'll have to see, but at least with Sanders the "progressive" box is checked. Biden HAS to check that box with his VP choice.

[downnola]

Ahh back to the money as a litmus test, solid argument. How much money a person spent has zero to do with whatever tactics they choose to use. So nice attempt at a deflection.

What tactics am I using and what am I deflecting from? I haven't made a single argument against Sanders in this thread. I don't like the kind of person that puts ideology before removing a far-right thug from office, but I'm not going after all or even most of his supporters. I've made a point to not lump them all together.

And yeah, supporting a candidate beyond just voting for them does matter.

[cubby]

Working with the other side (in this case the gop) is capitulating to them. That's sadly how it is. And democrats NEED to know it. They cannot work with the other side, not when the GOP denies basic science and still thinks that supply side economics works.

I realize that, even though what I just said there contradicts what I said earlier. What I mean is that while the current crop of GOP leaders are what you've described, at some point (we can hope) they will implode and as that happens a few will start to "see the light" (so to speak). And we need someone in the White House that can work with the GOP to right the ship, and heal the country.

We have to be the better party. AT THE SAME TIME we cannot capitulate nor give ground to the GOP. We have to, in fact, start taking some back. I realize, again, that I'm all over the place, but here we are regardless.