Mega-Thread: Democratic 2020 Primaries

[Lenonis]

So we agree??

I suspect we do not. At least not on the propriety of what you appear to be asserting.

It's normal and frankly even healthy politics to try to coalesce support in a fractured primary. This is part 1. Part 2 will need to happen after the nominee is named and that person has to bring everyone else to the table. Which will probably involve even more back room conversations and deals.

Is that wrong?

[Draco-Onis]

Seems like the same exchange Lenosis and I had earlier - I think the DNC pulled some strings to make sure that a Democrat wins rather than Sanders. When it became clear that they had to pick one, they picked Biden because he was running ahead of any of their other options. They probably even followed their rules and handled things in a fashion that's more or less open. So it's not a "conspiracy" in the sense of being ultra secret, it's just a bunch of people out in the open following their incentives and doing what I'd expect them to do to try to coordinate a Sanders defeat. As near as I can tell, Lenonis thinks that's basically a good thing and thus doesn't like people talking about it negatively even if there's no real disagreement on the basic facts.

It's weird people getting so triggered over this Biden couldn't secure the nomination the DNC and Obama put their finger on the scale it's factual.

- - - Updated - - -

I suspect we do not. At least not on the propriety of what you appear to be asserting.

It's normal and frankly even healthy politics to try to coalesce support in a fractured primary. This is part 1. Part 2 will need to happen after the nominee is named and that person has to bring everyone else to the table. Which will probably involve even more back room conversations and deals.

Is that wrong?

So you are upset because the timing of it you do not deem it the right terminology? seems you are pulling at straws. They offered Amy and Pete something for dropping out and backing Biden we said the same thing roflmao.

[JohnBrown1917]

No matter what side you're on, at least its a great day for Private health insurance investors!

[Lenonis]

As near as I can tell, Lenonis thinks that's basically a good thing and thus doesn't like people talking about it negatively even if there's no real disagreement on the basic facts.

I think it's logical. Doesn't mean I think it's good. I'd much prefer we have a system where every state has a primary (and no caucus) all on the same day, all with ranked choice voting, and the winner is the one who gets the most delegates. Period.

But that's not what we have. We have a system that empowers a party to balance the voter choice with their own. Which is, as far as I can tell, what is happening. That doesn't make it "right" or "the best" but it also doesn't make it a wild inappropriate conspiracy that people should get mad enough to go vote for Trump over.

And, as I've also stated before, I have a strong dislike of Bernie's approach about trying to coopt the party to get the president while discarding it or even disparaging it other times. I think that's a deep flaw in his character.

- - - Updated - - -

So you are upset because the timing of it you do not deem it the right terminology? seems you are pulling at straws. They offered Amy and Pete something for dropping out and backing Biden we said the same thing roflmao.

I mean...I'm not upset beyond I really wish we didn't end up with Biden and Bernie as our two choices.

I'm not sure they did offer Amy and Pete something. That's speculation that we'll have to see if it plays out that way. I'm just saying it's good politics and I also stated I'm 100% positive Bernie approach Warren with a similar conversation.

So...I have the impression you think this process was slimy and untowards and I'm kind of just shrugging as it seems like normal political process.

[Thelxi]

That's literally what they are called backroom deals not sure what you are on about, they talked them into it does that make you feel better?

You saying that doesn't make me feel better, no. Seeing you backpedal kinda does, but in today's spirit of unity I'll let you define phone calls between politicians as "backroom deals". It's all good

[Spectral]

I think it's logical. Doesn't mean I think it's good. I'd much prefer we have a system where every state has a primary (and no caucus) all on the same day, all with ranked choice voting, and the winner is the one who gets the most delegates. Period.

But that's not what we have. We have a system that empowers a party to balance the voter choice with their own. Which is, as far as I can tell, what is happening. That doesn't make it "right" or "the best" but it also doesn't make it a wild inappropriate conspiracy that people should get mad enough to go vote for Trump over.

And, as I've also stated before, I have a strong dislike of Bernie's approach about trying to coopt the party to get the president while discarding it or even disparaging it other times. I think that's a deep flaw in his character.

Yeah, I don't think we disagree very much at all. Everyone's following their incentives, including Bernie. The outcome is one that frustrates people, which I get, but it's a systems and incentives flaw that they should be concerned about rather than individual malfeasance.

Personally, I don't have much of a horse in this race. Each of these candidates seem peculiar and unfit to run the country in their own way. I'm not emotionally invested in any of them. The ability of someone like Bernie (or Trump) to put so much pressure on the system that they're able to nearly swing an entire party (or to actually swing them in Trump's case) is remarkable and demonstrates some underlying flaws in the systems that we should find pretty concerning though.

[Lenonis]

demonstrates some underlying flaws in the systems that we should find pretty concerning though.

Absolutely -- and let's throw in Bloomberg's ability to buy himself a candidacy that actually got a decent showing all things considered. Our system is horribly horribly flawed. And unfortunately it's also set up that the people who can fix it are the beneficiaries of it.

[Spectral]

I'm not sure they did offer Amy and Pete something. That's speculation that we'll have to see if it plays out that way. I'm just saying it's good politics and I also stated I'm 100% positive Bernie approach Warren with a similar conversation.

I don't think we'll ever actually know that answer unless there's a leak. If Biden were to win, it'd be entirely reasonable for him to put Amy K into a pretty high-ranking position given her career credentials and generally similar politics to his. Pete I'm less sure of on that front, but I seem to think the idea of moving from mayor of South Bend to a high position is much stupider than the average person thinks it is.

[Edge-]

So, is there a winner in this blood match or are both sides still lacerating each other while claiming victory and bleeding out heavily?

I had to stop looking at Twitter, both the moderate and progressive folks in my feed were completely intolerable. This is not making me remotely excited for this election.

[JohnBrown1917]

So, is there a winner in this blood match or are both sides still lacerating each other while claiming victory and bleeding out heavily?

I had to stop looking at Twitter, both the moderate and progressive folks in my feed were completely intolerable. This is not making me remotely excited for this election.

Healthcare and living wages is a very important issue to people, they have every right to get aggressive over it.

[Somewhatconcerned]

As many of us have said before, Democrats are stuck between a rock and a hard place - they can't win without the Bernie Bros but they also can't win without the moderates. Unfortunately there isn't a whole lot of overlap there.

Maybe we'll see the party split up after November. I don't think they will be able to handle losing to Trump twice. Imagine after all of Trump's misdeeds, STILL not having candidates or ideas that you can rally people around. This should have been a layup.

[Thepersona]

So, is there a winner in this blood match or are both sides still lacerating each other while claiming victory and bleeding out heavily?

I had to stop looking at Twitter, both the moderate and progressive folks in my feed were completely intolerable. This is not making me remotely excited for this election.

Hey, The silver lining of this is that if the Cancer wins again, democratic twitter will be a shitshow to end all shitshows!

[Orbitus]

You've got literally 3 pages of affecting anger about "whataboutism" in search results. I'd always kind of thought that you just picked the word up somewhere and thought it made for a snappy retort to people that point out double standards, but it's good to know for sure that you're not sincere about the matter.

It is cute watching you try so hard, just to fail.

[Elegiac]

Does the US really only pick primary candidates based off the entertainment value they would bring to 1-on-1 debates?

Nope.

I'm gonna be entirely frank here - black voters single handedly saved Joe Biden's campaign and they did it for their entirely reasonable lack of faith in white voters.

Joe Biden smashed the competition in the South Carolina Democratic presidential primary over the weekend. He beat his next closest competitor, Bernie Sanders, by almost 30 points. In the first state where the African American vote has been a consequential force, Biden’s consistent strength among black folks took the day: He won 61 percent of African American voters, according to exit polling.

Many people, including the Biden campaign, will tell you that Biden’s strong showing is an indication of his “electability” in a general election. Biden has been running as the “safe” choice to take on Trump. African Americans, especially those in the South, who have the most to lose with the reelection of a bigot who courts the favor of white supremacists, would seem to agree. Biden has led in the polling among black people since he set foot in this race.

It’s reasonable to ask why. Biden has spent most of the campaign stepping on rakes and losing himself in foggy memories of times gone by. His debate performances have been listless. His speeches and town halls have been heavy on empathy but horrifying on factual accuracy. The reality of Biden feels considerably less safe than the idea of Biden. In fact, it has been Biden’s apparent weakness that is primarily responsible for making Mike Bloomberg think he can swoop in and buy the nomination.

Biden’s actual history and policy record also makes him a weird choice to be the leader among African American voters. Biden has gone to great lengths to claim credit for the successes of the Obama administration—to the point where I’m starting to wonder what Obama did all day while Biden was busy making things happen. Biden claims to have been “there” for everything that’s been done by Democrats for the past 40 years. But only the good parts! The now reviled 1994 crime bill, which Biden wrote; his shameful treatment of Anita Hill during the Clarence Thomas confirmation hearings; his opposition to busing and friendliness with segregationists—all of that is part of his record too. But none of it has hurt him. If Kamala Harris had benefited from this kind of selective memory when it comes to policy, this entire race might be different.

Biden’s strength among African Americans in South Carolina was not universal. Black people are not a monolith, and the exit polling showed a split that has become familiar during this primary. Bernie Sanders narrowly beat Joe Biden among black voters under 30. And Bernie didn’t even have to “back that azz up” to get it. But Biden won a sweeping 75 percent of black voters over 60.

Some people on Twitter, including people who weirdly think of themselves as part of Bernie Sanders’s coalition, chalked up Biden’s win to “low information voters” in South Carolina. The argument would be offensive if it weren’t also so dumb. Older black voters in South Carolina have a lifetime of education and experience dealing with the most persistent threat to their safety and rights in this country: white people.

My read of the South Carolina vote is that black people know exactly what they’re doing, and why. Joe Biden is the indictment older black folks have issued against white America. His support is buttressed by chunks of the black community who have determined that most white people are selfish and cannot be trusted to do the right thing. They believe if you make white people choose between their money and their morality—between candidates like Sanders or Elizabeth Warren (who somehow finished fifth in South Carolina, behind Pete Buttigieg) and candidates like Biden and Michael Bloomberg—they will choose their money every time and twice on Election Day.

In short, white progressives - as it turns out reducing everything to a function of economics is not actually the way to build a broad based coalition.

[Edge-]

All I seem to see right now are myriad conspiracies.

And supposed Bernie supporters using Trump's nicknames like "Sleepy" Joe Biden.

I'm really liking that CA tweet about his place on the ballot.

Young, attractive woman creates an account and uploads a picture and everything to point out the CONSPIRACY that Sanders is at the end of the primary list in CA because Democrats are bad, and it goes "viral". Quotes because it sure seemed like it was boosted to artificial virality by playing into many Sanders supporters inclination towards conspiracy.

Meanwhile, in reality, CA has always handled it via a lottery system and placement is random. But that sure didn't stop thousands and thousands and thousands of people from sharing that PROOF OF CONSPIRACY.

[Egomaniac]

Healthcare and living wages is a very important issue to people, they have every right to get aggressive over it.

Sure, but the moderates and progressives attacking each other is just giving the GOP exactly what they want.

[omerome]

So, is there a winner in this blood match or are both sides still lacerating each other while claiming victory and bleeding out heavily?

I had to stop looking at Twitter, both the moderate and progressive folks in my feed were completely intolerable. This is not making me remotely excited for this election.

I am not excited about this election at all. It was like all of the positive energy just ran out. I am still going to vote the moron out of the White House, but I won't be as optimistic as I once was though.

And as I said, if Biden is the guy and he doesn't embrace the progressive point of view in the party at some point, we are in trouble.

[JohnBrown1917]

Sure, but the moderates and progressives attacking each other is just giving the GOP exactly what they want.

Because they are opposing ideologies. Why they are in 1 party in the US, I will never know.

[Drutt]

I had to stop looking at Twitter, both the moderate and progressive folks in my feed were completely intolerable. This is not making me remotely excited for this election.

Nope, not at all.

If the focus is solely on beating Trump, at this point it seems me that the smart thing do would be a ticket that has both Biden and Sanders on it. Get both sets of supporters engaged, as they both have skin in the game.

People keep talking about the need to make concessions when dealing with the Republicans, and the need to build consensus. I'm not sure how anyone expects that to happen when the DNC seems incapable of building consensus between the corporate and progressive wings of its own party.

- - - Updated - - -

Because they are opposing ideologies. Why they are in 1 party in the US, I will never know.

Well, that's not hard to work out.

The US is a two party system and there's no space for progressives in the hard right party.

The better question is why the US is set up for a two party system when that's clearly not good for anyone (other than those enriching themselves at the country's expense).

[Video Games]

I'm really liking that CA tweet about his place on the ballot.

Young, attractive woman creates an account and uploads a picture and everything to point out the CONSPIRACY that Sanders is at the end of the primary list in CA because Democrats are bad, and it goes "viral". Quotes because it sure seemed like it was boosted to artificial virality by playing into many Sanders supporters inclination towards conspiracy.

Meanwhile, in reality, CA has always handled it via a lottery system and placement is random. But that sure didn't stop thousands and thousands and thousands of people from sharing that PROOF OF CONSPIRACY.

BUT HES SO HARD TO FIND!!!! *presses down twice*