Mega-Thread: Democratic 2020 Primaries

[Endus]

You are mixing up Primary Candidate Obama and Democratic Nominee Obama, the end.

Both I, and Grapemask, were pointing out the very same difference between public perception and actual legislative record that you're trying to suggest somehow disproves what I originally said.

Progressives can't claim is 2008 win as their own.

If you think that's what was being said, then you either didn't read my post very carefully, or deliberately decided to attack a straw man.

Bear in mind that I have a fairly often-stated position that the American people, on both sides of the political aisle, make terribly uninformed electoral decisions based on gamesmanship and partisanship, rather than an informed position of policy.

[Theodarzna]

Not in the slightest. I think he's too idealistic by far[

[Snipped]

If its too idealistic than I'd say you don't actually support the program in any meaningful sense. Like if I say to @CommunismWillWin "You know I support Communism, you know fuck the capitalists! but this whole communism thing is too idealistic" I think CommunismWillWin would doubt I'm a good fit for his or her Anarcho-Communist commune or whatever. But your stance does sound like Warrens. Much as Warren said she was for it but would get around to it some day and said she wasn't for single payer previous, so if you are a Warren plan supporter than I've got terrible news for you. And before you freak about the source, its someone yes commenting on a clip but I made sure to timestamp the exact clip of Warren saying she isn't for single payer. Her actual plan was to pass Pete's plan and then get around to the M4A thing eventually. Which is strange given in my native UK first the National Health Service Act of 1946 was passed and then in 1948 was the rollout of the implemented program. Not some other different plan was passed with a promise to get around to the National Health Service at some later date. In the end her solution, the only one we were sure was going to happen was another market oriented one, not a single payer system. And I'd like to point out the good old United Kingdom accomplished this whilst rebuilding from the Second World War and without big brain computers to do the logistical work.

The point being that you seem wishy washy--much like Warren actually--and full of excuses for why you don't back a National Health Service in a real material terms and only support it as some abstract indeterminate future goal it seems. So I have to actually question if you sincerely support such a program or not. You've spoken at length for what seems like a dozen reasons you aren't for it in tangible defined action; and also one reason--correct me if I'm off base though--being you don't like a particular candidate who happens to be all in for it and possibly because his supporters are toxic or whatever in your view. Also you have intimated that the plan is too hard, or unrealistic, too logistically difficult, it would take like ten years to roll out, it might hurt all those health insurance employees. It seems like excuses abound for you to not actually say take action. Saying "Oh it will take forever" to someone saying "Hey, lets get the ball rolling on that right now, you know this crisis really underscores why we need this" sounds like opposition, as in "Lets not start cause..... idk just shut up about it", because I know in four or eight years and THEN we start doing the program and it takes 10 years to roll out, than you know I'll be much older than if we start literally right now. I'm aware it takes time, that is why I'd like to start now. Imagine this kind of talk with say Climate Change, I suspect you'd suspect that anyone given such reason for opposing action on Climate Change were merely just opposed to taking any action. Once more if that person told you they support a candidates plan that amounts to not doing a Climate Change action plan, but doing something else, and promising to get to it; I don't think you'd sincerely believe that that candidates heart was with the Climate Change Action Plan or whatever.

And given real history--That I already mentioned--such as in the UK the time between the National Health Service Act of 1946 that outlined the UK's NHS and 1948 when the program was up and active is a lot shorter than ten years and accomplished by a country freshly bombed to hell by Nazi's and with like none of the fancy super AI logistics systems we can use today. And the worse America has in terms of Nazi's is some strange Hawaiian themed marches, that I think happened once. So you know I doubt a country that isn't smoldering ruins and has thinking machines can accomplish it in at least as much time as a country that didn't having thinking machines and was freshly bombed to hell. However, lets say it takes ten years. If we start right away we have only 10 years to wait versus ten years plus the indeterminate amount of time waiting for Democrats or Republicans or whoever eventually creates an NHS to decide its the right time for that.

I guess I should ask, do you support a National Health Service coming into the United States before my daughter is a legal adult? She is just in those KT time, so lets say 14 years or so from now. But even if you say yes to that its like saying "I support a ban on assault weapons, sometime over a decade from now" or "I support amnesty for undocumented immigrants, sometime maybe in the next twenty years. And only if the supporters of amnesty learn to be more civil and less toxic." I would hope you could see how someone might be skeptical of someone's professed belief if they add such caveats to it and put an undefined timeline on it. At the vest least you would question if it matters that much to them as an issue. I mean if I say "Yeah sure I support immigration" but you know never state anything positive about liberalizing immigration, deride every plan to liberalized immigration as unrealistic or bad, and only support a plan that has some undefined date for it to start but in the meantime back a plan that isn't liberalizing immigration and am openly hostile towards any candidate who credibly plans to liberalized immigration at a tangible defined date and publicly call that politicians supporters "shitlords" or "Pissbabies" and insinuate that they are just bad people whose toxicity makes me not support the movement and instead back a candidate hostile to liberalizing Immigration, who even vow to veto liberalizing immigration, hopefully you would rightly ask "Do you actually want liberalized immigration?"

I would perhaps offer an alternative theory, that you are hiding your lack of any interest and commitment to such a policy program behind the thin veil of "Well.... I don't know maybe it can't be done" kind of thinking with a thick layer of tone police anyone does forcefully support it and some weaponized intersectionality to try and defeat the political campaign of any candidate who credibly wants to get that program started. I hope you could see why I would doubt this professed support. I would at least state your support for this issue is super low on your priority scale compared to whatever other issues interest you.

You might bring this back and say "Well, I prioritize getting Trump out of office and restoring normalcy" cause you know maybe if it had been president Hillary say the Coronavirus would not be playing out as it is. Ignoring the Alt-History fanfiction of that for a moment, I'll grant that point. But, had it been Sanders in 2016 and his presidency and a National Health Service program, well, given the UK Timeline it would be rolled out just in time and the point me and @Vash The Stampede are making, (Correct me if I'm wrong Vash) is that this crisis more underscores why this broadly popular program among the general electorate is something this country actually needs and would be a real material benefit to the country that I could actually show would be a solution and better material situation than say a alt-history fanfiction of "What if Trump wasn't president right now" which yeah sure, but "What if we had a National Health Service right now" is a fanfiction that is able to draw actual statistical data and studies and the example of other countries whom also have this sort of system and the fact that it is something the public by and large wants.

[Grapemask]

You are mixing up Primary Candidate Obama and Democratic Nominee Obama, the end.

But you are, again, pointing out his actual positions relative to the perception of his positions. There's a reason "hope" and "change" were extremely successful. It's because people believed in Obama's ability to provide hope and change. People thought Obama was going to usher in a new era of politics. They thought they were riding a wave that would give them healthcare and more. That was the momentum.

This has been the key to every "progressive" that has been successful. All of them provided a platform of a revolutionary thing the people weren't getting. Obama was healthcare, which aligned with healthcare being the top issue even 10 years ago (of course, it was the top issue at just 28% then - today, in elections without Trump, it factors at 50% or higher, the first time it has reached majority rather than plurality support - not to go off on another tangent about healthcare or anything).

The issue Biden faces, and that you yourself have commented on, is that he basically does not have a campaign. He's not offering anyone anything other than that he's not Trump. I think that plays to his advantage more than it normally would given how uniquely polarizing Trump is, but no one should be surprised if it backfires. "I should be president for the same reason some ~150 million qualified Americans could be: I'm not Donald Trump" may not be as poll-driving as one would hope.

[Vash The Stampede]

I think it can be done in 3-4 years but it would likely come after a catastrophic financial situation as that is the only way to get America to move quickly.

Good news, it turns out that's exactly what's happening right now.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for M4A. I fucking hate private insurance with a passion.

I'm just not living in the clouds and know that overhauling our entire payment system, eliminating a non-trivial sector of the economy, and negotiating new payment rates with both supply and care providers plus a host of other changes will take a long time to do. If we want to do it right.

We have to start at some point, and I really don't care what happens to the private health insurance industry. What happens to the employees that'll lose their jobs? Same thing that happens to people when they get a medical bill that bankrupts them. The invisible hand of the free market? May I suggest a Citizen's dividend that will be needed for many other problems that'll happen within 10 years?

- - - Updated - - -

I don't quite get your thought train. ACA was barely passed with the public option stripped out and republicans flipped their shit. If we didn't have ACA I'm not sure how you think we'd just magic up M4A. It's been a fight to just keep the barest parts of the ACA, a lot of the meat already got stripped by republicans. You think there's any way in hell M4A would have made it through, much less survived?

The problem seems to be Republicans and so therefore we need to vote them out. Joe Biden won't do that since he's appealing to center right voters.

So your guy lost. Gotta accept that. The party didn't want him.

The reports of Bernie Sanders loss is greatly exaggerated. Still have more than half the states left.

But if Trump gets a second term, you aint never getting M4A.

The way I see it, in the next 4 years we get another chance to elect a progressive. If Biden wins then it's 8 years.

With Biden, people can still fight for it in the house and push it through possibly. And as I said if not, moving another president in 4/8 years from the public option to M4A will be a much simpler fight.

I want to hear that Joe Biden would vote for it. So far Biden has said he'd vote against it.

That's generally how politics work. You get some of what you want when you win and you keep pushing and next time you get a bit more. This idea that ACA was a *BAD* thing for the fight towards M4A is just insane. It's the opposite of that. Yeah it wasn't everything you want, but it was a step that way. It didn't make M4A less likely, it made it more likely. We wouldn't be talking about the chance if the ACA never happened. People wouldn't even think it possible, like they didn't even think the ACA public option was possible, but now they do.

More than half of Americans are in favor of M4A so why wait? Because politics are hard?

[Skroe]

Both I, and Grapemask, were pointing out the very same difference between public perception and actual legislative record that you're trying to suggest somehow disproves what I originally said.

If you think that's what was being said, then you either didn't read my post very carefully, or deliberately decided to attack a straw man.

Bear in mind that I have a fairly often-stated position that the American people, on both sides of the political aisle, make terribly uninformed electoral decisions based on gamesmanship and partisanship, rather than an informed position of policy.

I mean the perception claim is what is counterfeit. Obama was NOT perceived as a progressive during the General Election. Progressives don't get to claim that either. He was perceived as the left-of-Hillary alternative in the primary (would not go so far as to call him progressive alternative in the Sanders sense... maybe progressive-ish). But as soon as the General election season began and he started his hard centrist turn, that perception evaporated very quick. The perception he had created in the General election - exactly what I was referring to when I made the point of stating that those were his pre-election positions (with his TARP vote being the one action he could do) was not progressive at all. It was very much a middle-of-the-road fixer who is here to clean up the Bush Administration's mess.

In short being percieved as progressive simply wasn't a thing in the General Election in 2008, and it didn't hurt Obama (it actually helped him because he allowed him to ideologically isolate his opponent). So claiming that the lack of perception on Biden's part here will somehow hurt him, if I am understanding how the conversation got started, would be a bullshit thing to say. Biden's best bet is to emulate Obama's strategy as a middle-of-the-road fixer of competence who will offer change away from the disasters of the sitting Republican Administration.

Progressive ideological alignment / perception need not apply.

Bear in mind that I have a fairly often-stated position that the American people, on both sides of the political aisle, make terribly uninformed electoral decisions based on gamesmanship and partisanship, rather than an informed position of policy.

Of course we do. It's a democracy. People vote with their hearts, almost never their brains. Progressives seem to be continuously surprised they are campaigning towards getting the vote of actual people with their prejudices, personal histories, fears, emotions, hates, likes and all that, rather than campaigning towards computers. Progressives have immense humanity in their cares but an utter lack of understanding the humanity that drives people's behavior.

People are people. Not Vulcans. They're not rational. They're not logical. They're petty. They're prejudiced. They almost never have even a minor understanding of the facts.

Obama's failure as a President is the same failure that Progressives have today, ironically. THey think they can educate and argue. That they can compel agreement through facts and evidence. I admire the nobility of believing that, but this about actually winning elections and nobody has ever won an election by telling their voters "you're wrong for believing what you believe".

This is why Bernard Sanders with his core M4A message getting decidedly annihilated when it comes to voters is the biggest non-surprise in retrospect. Progressives certainly HAVE made M4A a topic of conversation for the Democratic Party. It's made the party move towards single payer. But it's not quite there yet.The M4A or single payer approach hasn't won the internal policy debate. It's started the debate to be sure. But it's far, far from played out.

Sanders supporters made the arrogant presumption that Bernie's popularity with a segment of voters indicated the debate had been won. These polling outcomes show the opposite. People may be inclined to hear about M4A, but they want other things more. And maybe they want to see if the ACA can be improved first.

Now don't get me wrong, Bernie's argument of "wouldn't you want to pay a $10,000 bill in the form of a tax, instead of a $25,000 bill in the form of a insurance bill" is a pretty good one for an educated voter. But for the majority of voters, it's ineffective. The logic is there but the emotion isn't. There is nothing human about that argument. That's the argument of a computer.

To paraphrase one argument from today, Biden has a good shot at winning in the fall, not for any policy platform, but because Americans simply will feel that they like Biden more than they like Trump. Personal affinity. Emotion. Commonality. There is no policy logic to it. It's the same way someone wins Student Council President. But that's also how Democracy typically works. Winning elections is about utilizing whatever tool is most optimal to get more voters than the other guy, and the best and most reliable tool is centered on driving people in emotional directions, not making rational arguments.

And this is also why, conversely, Bernie Sanders' deeply irresponsible Revolution slogan was a disaster for his campaign. First, there is clearly no revolution here. Just a failed Presidential campaign with a slogan. Secondly, there is no evidence the country wants a revolution, so he chose a message that alienated and made people make an emotional movement away from him rather than expand his base. Real revolutions happen bottom up. Emotionally. Naturally. They don't happen because a guy calls his campaign one.

His failed 2016 and 2020 campaigns will be taught in political science classes for decades to come. The messaging for it was directed at a very specific crowd, and as a result aligned far more voters against him. And that's why he's going to get decimated again on Tuesday. Because elections are about people and emotions, and very rarely policy. The smart politician plays to hearts, not brains.

[Endus]

I mean the perception claim is what is counterfeit. Obama was NOT perceived as a progressive during the General Election.

You keep acting as if there was a major tonal shift in his campaign messaging between the primary and the general, a major shift in public perception.

I dispute that this is actually true.

As you yourself said;

Obama ran in the PRIMARY to Hillary's left. He was the quasi-progressive alternative.

This is simply not true. He was perecieved as progressive (but certainly not "extraordinarily so") during the primary.

And then he legislated in a more-centrist manner once he was elected. My entire point was the discrepancy between how he was seen by progressive-minded voters, and how he actually legislated; that the perception, created by his progressive campaigning in the primary which you yourself admitted to, helped him to win the Presidency. It wasn't an accurate perception, given how he legislated while in the office, but that's not relevant to my point in any way whatsoever; my point stopped at the ballot box, and was entirely about the image of Obama in progressive voters' minds at that time.

[tyrlaan]

Bernie Sanders lost in 2020, and took the progressive movement with him, because in the end they were all collectivelly less politically deft as Obama. The difference is Obama wanted to win and 2020 Progressives wanted to feel righteous and empowered. Throngs of people in Brooklyn are irrelevant if NY is a D+30 state anyway.

Just remember: Bernie Sanders didn't spend the 10 days after Nevada expanding his base. He spent it hammering the establishment and saying nice things about Fidel Castro.

He deserved to lose. All his supporters did. Obama never would have done something so catastrophically stupid.

- - - Updated - - -

On to other matters.



Can't blame superdelegates this time.

It's over. Eat floor.

Your nonstop hammering of Sanders and Sanders supporters like they're some sort of runner up to Trump is tiresome, petty, and above all, counterproductive.

We get it. Move on.

I mean, you expect Sanders supporters to move on, I think it's well past time for you to do the same.

[Skroe]

Your nonstop hammering of Sanders and Sanders supporters like they're some sort of runner up to Trump is tiresome, petty, and above all, counterproductive.

We get it. Move on.

I mean, you expect Sanders supporters to move on, I think it's well past time for you to do the same.

Yeah and it will continue to be non-stop. And I'm going to tell you why.

I see an opening with Joe Biden. I want him to win, and through his victory lay progressives so low they won't recover for twenty years. I don't just want them defeated. I want them destroyed.

Why? Because Act II, when Joe Biden becomes President, is through some sort of Truth and Reconciliation Commission and a Justice Department that _will_ prosecute the Trump Crime Syndicate, we'll have to do it to the radical right as well. And Act III will be him shaping the generational turnover the of the Democratic Party. Nancy Pelosi only has a few years left in her. Biden will be well positioned to ensure the next generation of Democratic leadership does not reflect anything of Bernard Sanders' fake revolution.

This country must see the resurgence of it's historic center-right / center-left balancing act. The far right and far left must be ground to dust.

So yes I will keep hammering. Any true patriot would. Because radicalism must be discredited. People who think for a *moment* there is an excuse for paying compliments to Fidel's Castro regime should not be allowed within a light year of real power. We must rebuild institutions. We must fortify establishments. We must reinvest in consensus-building centers of power that negotiate in good faith, not political absolutionism on the left or the right.


And as I said, I don't expect Sanders supporters to move on. I expect them to say home election day in November. Any that show up is a pure bonus. Some decided to take a proverbial hostage. I decided to, in a sense pre-emptively shoot the hostage rather than negotiate for their release.

The Bernard Sanders left. The Trumphadi right. The same un-American radioactive coin that must be buried so deep nobody finds it for a generation or two. Restoring normalcy and sanity to this country means left/right populism must be destroyed.

[Milchshake]

Why does BErnie attract such cynical nihilists? Because he is a narcissistic nihilist?

Glad he conclude his political career with one last profoundly selfish act. There is no real possibility of Bernie winning this nomination, so dragging people out to vote Tuesday to expose more people is so fucking unnecessary and irresponsible.

This primary is over, and Bernie dragging it out when we could all just help flatten the curve is wrong .




Contrast in styles. Above was presidential and thoughtful.

Below is a grifter that wants to milk his marks.



I geuss its easy to be a nihilist when you live in the lap of luxury. 3 houses and so many private jets you board the wrong one.

[Adam Jensen]

Yeah and it will continue to be non-stop. And I'm going to tell you why.

I see an opening with Joe Biden. I want him to win, and through his victory lay progressives so low they won't recover for twenty years. I don't just want them defeated. I want them destroyed.

Yeah because god fucking forbid we get universal health care like every other goddamn first world nation.
God forbid we get some control on the insane prices of drugs and medication
God forbid college be affordable to everyday Americans, as it is to the British, Canadians, French, Danish, Insert-First-World-Nation-Here
And God forbid we spend any money on any investment that isn't your beloved imperial war machine.

- - - Updated - - -

People who think for a *moment* there is an excuse for paying compliments to Fidel's Castro regime should not be allowed within a light year of real power. .

Oh no. Bernie said Castro had a good literacy program. So the fuck what? Hitler had a great Autobahn program.

[Doctor Amadeus]

Yeah and it will continue to be non-stop. And I'm going to tell you why.

I see an opening with Joe Biden. I want him to win, and through his victory lay progressives so low they won't recover for twenty years. I don't just want them defeated. I want them destroyed.

Why? Because Act II, when Joe Biden becomes President, is through some sort of Truth and Reconciliation Commission and a Justice Department that _will_ prosecute the Trump Crime Syndicate, we'll have to do it to the radical right as well. And Act III will be him shaping the generational turnover the of the Democratic Party. Nancy Pelosi only has a few years left in her. Biden will be well positioned to ensure the next generation of Democratic leadership does not reflect anything of Bernard Sanders' fake revolution.

This country must see the resurgence of it's historic center-right / center-left balancing act. The far right and far left must be ground to dust.

So yes I will keep hammering. Any true patriot would. Because radicalism must be discredited. People who think for a *moment* there is an excuse for paying compliments to Fidel's Castro regime should not be allowed within a light year of real power. We must rebuild institutions. We must fortify establishments. We must reinvest in consensus-building centers of power that negotiate in good faith, not political absolutionism on the left or the right.


And as I said, I don't expect Sanders supporters to move on. I expect them to say home election day in November. Any that show up is a pure bonus. Some decided to take a proverbial hostage. I decided to, in a sense pre-emptively shoot the hostage rather than negotiate for their release.

The Bernard Sanders left. The Trumphadi right. The same un-American radioactive coin that must be buried so deep nobody finds it for a generation or two. Restoring normalcy and sanity to this country means left/right populism must be destroyed.

I am of the belief that even if Sanders got the nomination his supporters would stay home.

I think what's interesting though is you have in fighting among Bernie Supporters and Alt-Right, because many Alt-Right have now pretending to support Biden. That said I support defeating Trump no matter what. I am Not looking to be center or whatever else, I'm not fooled by fake Biden supporters either, but those that truly are going to show up, and vote Trump out, I am willing to work with.


As is I Said Bernie or Biden, I am prepared to fully support.

[Skroe]

Yeah because god fucking forbid we get universal health care like every other goddamn first world nation.
God forbid we get some control on the insane prices of drugs and medication
God forbid college be affordable to everyday Americans, as it is to the British, Canadians, French, Danish, Insert-First-World-Nation-Here
And God forbid we spend any money on any investment that isn't your beloved imperial war machine.

The restoration of political normalcy, rebuilding consensus building, normalizing moderation and rebuilding our national institutions is far more important than any of those goals.

The United States is institutionally in a dilapidated state. The Federal response to Coronavirus shows that. It goes far deeper than Trump. We haven't modernized our fundamdental way of doing business as a self-ruling people in decades, and the rot is showing. This is the foundation for how we are to live as a people. We have fundamental self-government issues right now. America is basically going along on inertia and hoping there isn't a big enough catastrophe that would impose true and lasting consequences. This could be the one. It might not. But it's out there... lurking.

We have to overhaul how government works here, and how we rule ourselves immediately. Before people die to plundering of our inheritance. The problem isn't that there is lack of access to healthcare or the debt or low taxes for the wealthy or a social security deadline far in the future. The problem is we've been aware of these problems and have been unable to devise resolutions - or even minor progress - for many decades. That's not a problem with the issues. That's a problem with our institutions. That's a problem with the foundation.

The things you named? That's stuff to work through when the foundation is repaired. Is it important? Yes. Crucially so. And yet, far less important than the question of "what the hell is the United States anyway?" Because right now we're basically a failed federal state where some high functioning rich states are dragging the rest of the country along, and we just keep getting lucky that our enormous wealth can bail us out from any problem. But institutionally, we're barely functional.

Healthcare can wait. And if you hit me with "well people will die while we wait". Yeah. They will. That's the consequence of becoming consumed with culture war minutiae and less important matters for 40 years. That ships sailed Now comes preventing future losses due to our inaction in the reform this country needs.

Reform. Not revolution.

Oh no. Bernie said Castro had a good literacy program. So the fuck what? Hitler had a great Autobahn program.

The part Bernard left out intentionally - and he knew this - is this Castro spread literacy in Cuba in order to speed indoctrination of his political ideology in the previously illiterate population. It wasn't to improve their quality of life and impart a fundamental human right. It wasn't to created a learned population. It was to build a foundation of ideological support by empowering people who never had the means to educate themselves before to only be educated by his Communist political ideology.

The fundamental aim of every authoritarian regime is to maintain and deepen their grip on power. Literacy opens doors to new possibilities. It spreads knowledge of alternatives. Why on Earth would an authoritarian regime want to do that? The answer is they wouldn't, not unless it could be perverted to serve their ends. And that is exactly what Castro did. And for the record, Mao's China did the exact same thing. They also trained hundreds of millions of people to read. And what did they read? The Little Red Book.

"So the fuck what?". It was done exclusively to help entrenched an authoritarian regime. That's "the fuck" what.

So no. It was not a good thing. It was a cynical thing. It was a manipulative thing. And Bernard Sanders left that out because at his core, he's a relic Cold War lefty that never got over the fact that, in his eyes, the wrong side won.

[akris15]

Yeah because god fucking forbid we get universal health care like every other goddamn first world nation.
God forbid we get some control on the insane prices of drugs and medication
God forbid college be affordable to everyday Americans, as it is to the British, Canadians, French, Danish, Insert-First-World-Nation-Here
And God forbid we spend any money on any investment that isn't your beloved imperial war machine.

There is some truth to Skroe's explanation of we need to re-build the foundation of American government but honestly we have to wait until the "Fuck you I got mine" generation dies off to get actual progress in these areas and that will take about a decade. I still believe by the time we as Millennials retire there will be some form of Universal Care because we have been the generation most effected by these changes and the Boomer crowd can't live forever.

[Masark]

Why? Because Act II, when Joe Biden becomes President, is through some sort of Truth and Reconciliation Commission

Pfft. You think Biden is going to do that?

Biden who has buddy-buddied with Republicans in the Senate for 40 years and helped them implement some of the worst legislation over that time, plus a bunch of unfit judges.

Biden who, along with Obama, let Bush skate on war crimes and crimes against humanity.

Biden who is still going on about playing nice with the Republicans, even after being the target of their actions during his vice presidency.

You don't have a fucking far left to destroy. You don't even have a fucking left. You just barely have a centre-left comprised of maybe a double handful of members of your legislature.

What Biden will be poised to do is serve as a brief intermission between trump the incompetent far-right and the next far-right figure who is smart enough to tie his own shoes.

[Skroe]

Pfft. You think Biden is going to do that?

Biden who has buddy-buddied with Republicans in the Senate for 40 years and helped them implement some of the worst legislation over that time.

Biden who, along with Obama, let Bush skate on war crimes and crimes against humanity.

Biden who is still going on about playing nice with the Republicans, even after being the target of their actions during his vice presidency.

You don't have a fucking far left to destroy. You don't even have a fucking left. You just barely have a centre-left comprised of maybe a double handful of members of your legislature.

What Biden will be poised to do is serve as a brief intermission between trump the incompetent far-right and the next far-right figure who is smart enough to tie his own shoes.

I absolutely think he will. Because he's a smart man, and he's seen the political cost of not holding Rumsfeld/Cheney accountable undermine Obama's Presidency.

He will not want to make the same mistake.

Biden will extend an olive branch to some Republicans certainly in order to split those would stand and defense an ex-President versus those who would be looking out for their own futures. But he'll be made well aware that an essential part of advancing his agenda, such as it is, is to split an opposition only held together right now by fear of Trump's twitter account. And when that's removed as a threat.... all bets are off.

America is in for a very ugly decade politically. But we brought this on ourselves.

And we do have a progressive left in this country. A progressive left that thought that the 10% of them that represent the population somehow qualified as a revolution.

They get to pay the price now for playing their stupid revolution game.

There will be no third act to Sanders-style politics. No matter how much his supporters want it. We'll probably get single payer one day. We'll probably get student loan reform one day. A good chunk of what they want may actually be actualized one day. But it will go through the normal process that a healthy democracy executes... not whatever ridiculous populist / people power claptrap Bernard Sanders, I-Brooklyn Used Car Dealership, conned his supporters into believing was possible.

[Theodarzna]

The restoration of political normalcy, rebuilding consensus building, normalizing moderation and rebuilding our national institutions is far more important than any of those goals.

None of these goals mean anything. What is normalcy? What is this consensus you hope to build? Moderation between what and what? What institutions are we supposed to sacrifice for? Much as NED funded's point of a "Government that does things", what things exactly are you wanting? In NED's case its gutting Teachers Unions and ensuring min wage is lower to non-existent. What does it mean for you? What are you actually asking for?

There has been a marching darkness throughout the reign of what you seem to believe to be the all important "Normalcy" that needs to be restored. Beyond all the abstract undefined things you want people to care about there's just people out there living desperate bleak miserable lives. Talented and interesting people are wasted, born into a failed and hollow society. And I guess these people need to forego the very real benefit of say a National Health Care, lives free of debt anxiety and ability to start actual lives, people have no secure jobs or futures, but fuck them and let them rot still because.... what? What exactly are you asking people to continue to suffer for?

Because those words mean absolutely nothing. They are the emptiest of platitudes. You know what would have been good for Coronavirus if we had Universal Health Care under a president Sanders who was and still is the only candidate who credibly would have pushed to even try for it.

Robbing the nations inheritance? pffffttt Most Americans under 40, whom Biden has no care or concern for will never own homes or even afford a family. Those problems well predate Trump, and indeed Biden is fairly directly responsible and unashamedly so for some of that misery that has persisted for over ten years now. What inheritance is there?

Maybe talk in what you really are asking people to sacrifice for instead of some semi-poetic stump speech without naming anything specific.

[jonnysensible]

This idea that Biden is going to win as a dead cert needs to go. This is going to be the dirtiest election yet. Digital disinformation will be on overdrive. Trump knows he cant afford to give up power because of the consequences (prosecution). And Biden is an uninspired choice.

This idea that the left needs to die is disgusting. Who does the ground work against fascism? Who will liberals need to defeat fascism? Grow up.

The appeals to patriotism are laughable as if there is a monopoly or that it means anything beyond an appeal to masculinity.

The QANON crowd are going to be doing some real time fuckery, the boogaloo crowd are looking energised. The idea that this is going to be a cake walk to normalisation (whatever that is) is naive.

The problems America is facing are so broad, and nobody seems to be confronting the most insidious aspect, Oligarchic capture masquerading as a meritocracy.

[Sunseeker]

The alt-reich trolls here annoy me, but they're not the ones who make this thread disgusting.

[Masark]

And we do have a progressive left in this country. A progressive left that thought that the 10% of them that represent the population somehow qualified as a revolution.

Progressive, yes, left, no.

Wanting shit like universal healthcare that is considered basics in other developed nations is not "left".

[Skroe]

Progressive, yes, left, no.

Wanting shit like universal healthcare that is considered basics in other developed nations is not "left".

Yeah you see you don't get to unilaterally redefine words like that.

In the United States, progressives and "the left" are synonomous.

Your healthcare comment is irrelevant. The American people do not have a consensus on the topic on the right way to go about it. The Bernard Segement of Progressives made the arrogant presumption they had won the argument.

They had not.

The political process is ongoing. Could be M4A. Could be public option. Could be Obamacare 2.0. Could be "Medicaid for All". Could be Obamacare repeal. Who knows. But it's kind of hard to make something happen when America's political process has barely begun processing it.

This is too why I've said since 2016 that Bernard Sanders is the President Progressives want at the end of the process, not the start. But hey, they wanted to rush to the end and now they have nothing.

There's a word for that.

Fair.

Because they share this country with a far greater majority of Americans who do not necessarily want what they want. It's a cryin shame they live in a country of 330 million people, rather than some little European country of 9 million where consensus forming is easier.

My advice to American progressives? Give up Federalizing everything and press your agenda exclusively at the state level for the time being. Bottom-up it. The thing they haven't wanted to do for really, really bad reasons. Cut the 330 million people / 220 million taxpayer problem down to a much more managable size. It's much easier to win political arguments in the States than it is across the entirety of the country.

But hey what do I know. I'm only a Massachusetts taxpayer. We only had MassHealth/Romneycare and 2% uninsured residents years before Obamacare. Today we have 3% uninsured residents, the lowest in the country. We're seriously the best State in the union.

- - - Updated - - -

The alt-reich trolls here annoy me, but they're not the ones who make this thread disgusting.

What's been disgusting in this thread is self-pleasuring progressives, so very very pleased with themselves and their political ideology that they misdiagnosed the nature of this election for entirely self serving purposes. They put at risk the entire anti-Trump endevour because they saw Trump as an opportunity, not an all-hands-on-deck national emergency. I feared they'd do it since they tried to retcon how Nancy Pelosi got her majority back in 2018 (on the back of blue dogs in Trump districts, not progressives). And like the true fucking pros they are, they went ahead and did it. They thought the time had come for their ideology. They decided to risk the future of America as we know it on a gamble that Americans would embrace democratic socialism. How selfish. How reckless. How stupid.

I've been saying this is not a policy election, but a referendum on Trump since last year. Voters proved me right. They are voting for Biden because they like him and think he can beat Trump. Not because of his ideas. Again, eat floor progressives.

Oh, what's also been disgusting in this thread? People so far up their own ass when it comes to their political ideology that they've hysterically relabeled Nancy Pelosi - a life long liberal Democrat who has consistently advocated for the vulnerable - and Joe Biden, one of the most liberal members of the Senate in his time as "basically Republicans". Oh yeah, Obama too. That happened here. That's how fucken delusional progressives in this thread have been. They call literal liberals "basically Republicans" because they were "part of the establishment" that were thwarting Saint Bernard.

Oh yeah, third item of the disgusting meter. The cult of personality crap. Let me tell you something. When people actually go to bat to defend Sanders' politically suicidal comment about Castro and Cuba - something that would have wiped him out in the General election - there is a serious fucking problem between candidate-supporter relations. On just this page, I explained the nature of Castro's literacy initiative to but the latest attempt to downplay the severity of the comment. I keep bringing it up because it's a microcosm of everything wrong with Sanders and his movement. It was a pointless hill to die on, but the cult decided to die on it because Saint Bernard is infallible. "Not me, us" my Colombian ass.


On Tuesday Florida Cuban-Americans, African Americans and white retirees is going to fittingly pave over the emaciated corpse of the faux-Sanderista revolution by delivering to Biden a massive delegate bump that will push Sanders even further behind. Salt on the wound. A fitting end to a miserable stunt.

Progressives fought stupidly and lost. You people risked our best shot at defeating Trump and saving this country in the frenzy to pleasure yourselves over your political ideology. Don't try this shit again.