Mega-Thread: Democratic 2020 Primaries

[starlord]

I've tried to be patient and respectful with you, but if you don't understand how what you just bolded doesn't;t contradict anything I said when it is exactly what I've been saying, I cannot help you.

and if you can't understand how it does, then i guess we'll have to agree to disagree cause you can't seem to prove your point that trump is moderates fault instead of the GOP's for choosing to court the religious zealots.

[Bodakane]

and if you can't understand how it does, then i guess we'll have to agree to disagree cause you can't seem to prove your point that trump is moderates fault instead of the GOP's for choosing to court the religious zealots.

Next time I'll write it in fucking crayon.

[cubby]

Whether they do know or not, isn't the point. They aren't doing it, that is the point.

I say to you again, every candidate the Dems have put up has been center to center right since B. Clinton and at the same time, the right has gotten more and more right, to where there's a real fear Trump won't leave office without force. During all fo this, you are saying, "Nope, stay the course, keep meeting them halfway."

Now you're not listening. It doesn't matter where they stand in the political spectrum. What matters is how they negotiate policy. Nominating and electing a moderate isn't meeting anyone half way, any where. You're making illogical leaps from incomplete information.

[starlord]

Next time I'll write it in fucking crayon.

you say that dems are right wing, which is fair. so where do the moderates even come in? thats what i don't get.
either there are no moderates, in which case its irrelevant, or there are and dems are not right wing in that context.

[Draco-Onis]

pretty sure skroe is conservative/neo conservative who is only here cause he wants to beat trump....he doesn't care about the democratic party at all besides beating trump.

Indeed but that's just short term thinking because the things that got us Trump don't go away when he is not in office if anything they can easily get worse. Trump is just the broken alpha version of what could be in store for us.

[Bodakane]

Now you're not listening. It doesn't matter where they stand in the political spectrum. What matters is how they negotiate policy. Nominating and electing a moderate isn't meeting anyone half way, any where. You're making illogical leaps from incomplete information.

They aren't running as moderates but are secret liberals with secret liberal agendas. So yes it does matter, it matters a lot.

What;'s Biden's plan for healthcare then? ACA again, the conservative plan to counter single payer? See my point?

[Sunseeker]

you're ignoring that both were much more to the left than their opponents, which proves my point. the right abandoned its moderates which were then folded into the left.
i am going by american standards, cause america has never had a strong left (the actual progressive party died out shortly after it was born long ago). its not worth comparing to europe, which is a mistake i see a lot here do lately (egged on by europeans).

Being "left" of Donald Fucking Trump and the alt-reich is NOT GOOD ENOUGH.

How fucking hard is this to comprehend at this point?

This is the fundamental argument of american lefties, be they progressives, Bernistas or whatever you call them. Being "Not as right-wing as the right wing" isn't good enough anymore.

[cubby]

They aren't running as moderates but are secret liberals with secret liberal agendas. So yes it does matter, it matters a lot.

Wut? I don't even know what you mean by "secret liberals".

What;'s Biden's plan for healthcare then? ACA again, the conservative plan to counter single payer? See my point?

What is his plan for healthcare? Do you even know? Are you arguing this entire point from a position of ignorance? And did you just admit that?

[Sunseeker]

Now you're not listening. It doesn't matter where they stand in the political spectrum. What matters is how they negotiate policy. Nominating and electing a moderate isn't meeting anyone half way, any where. You're making illogical leaps from incomplete information.

Your ignorance of the Democratic party's historical positions and approaches to negotiations is astounding.

Well, not really, mostly blindly arrogant, but that's pretty status-quo for the status-quo.

[Edge-]

What;'s Biden's plan for healthcare then? ACA again, the conservative plan to counter single payer? See my point?

The ACA wasn't the conservative plan at all nor was it designed to counter single payer, especially not the Republican plan.

Was it a more conservative approach to addressing issues? Yes. But that's because the country, and the political party responsible, generally don't handle major shocks well. And do you know what? The conservative approach fucking worked, and the ACA is now majority popular by large margins - or at the very least the protections it gave.

However, here's his plan - https://joebiden.com/healthcare/

Here's some analysis (not sure how legit this site is but the analysis seems on point, though not super granular) comparing this to Sanders - https://www.healthline.com/health/ho...ans-measure-up

[Bodakane]

you say that dems are right wing, which is fair. so where do the moderates even come in? thats what i don't get.
either there are no moderates, in which case its irrelevant, or there are and dems are not right wing in that context.

Jesus christ......

Everyone agrees that moderate means "between left and right". The problem is, people are assigning that to anyone left of Trump. Being left of Trump does not make some moderate.

If the scale goes:

Left 100 ................Left 50..................0 moderate ................Right 50..................Right 100

Trump is Right 95.
Biden and what people incorrectly call moderates are like Right 20.
Right 20 =/= moderate

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The ACA wasn't the conservative plan at all nor was it designed to counter single payer, especially not the Republican plan.

Was it a more conservative approach to addressing issues? Yes. But that's because the country, and the political party responsible, generally don't handle major shocks well. And do you know what? The conservative approach fucking worked, and the ACA is now majority popular by large margins - or at the very least the protections it gave.

However, here's his plan - https://joebiden.com/healthcare/

Here's some analysis (not sure how legit this site is but the analysis seems on point, though not super granular) comparing this to Sanders - https://www.healthline.com/health/ho...ans-measure-up

I'm sorry but the insurance mandate was absolutely a conservative plan, proposed by the conservative Heritage Foundation as a counter to single payer. I didn't make that up.

So as i said, his plan is to push the ACA, which was already a politically conservative plan of attack for healthcare, thereby proving my point, moderates are coming to the negotiating table with compromise as there plan, so they have to move further away from that to compromise.

[Grapemask]

The ACA wasn't the conservative plan at all nor was it designed to counter single payer, especially not the Republican plan.

Was it a more conservative approach to addressing issues? Yes. But that's because the country, and the political party responsible, generally don't handle major shocks well. And do you know what? The conservative approach fucking worked, and the ACA is now majority popular by large margins - or at the very least the protections it gave.

However, here's his plan - https://joebiden.com/healthcare/

Here's some analysis (not sure how legit this site is but the analysis seems on point, though not super granular) comparing this to Sanders - https://www.healthline.com/health/ho...ans-measure-up

The basic breakdown is that Biden's plan will expand coverage to more people and help lower costs, but it's not clear exactly what that coverage will entail (and he also doesn't explain how to pay for it, just like Sanders, yet this never received nearly as much outcry (grumble, grumble)). Sanders' plan will giver everyone coverage and basically eliminate costs and even save money from an annual perspective, but he also has not fully explained how it'll be paid for and it will cost a lot more. From a consumer perspective (ie people who want to be healthy), Sanders has the better plan. From an economic perspective, Biden's plan is probably better, mainly because Sanders' plan will require the eradication of an industry and Biden will cost less.

How Biden's plan doesn't seem to understand the healthcare issue is that while we definitely need to close the coverage gap, it doesn't fix that getting covered is 1/100th of the battle. Having an insurance card in your pocket is worthless if it's too expensive to use the thing it's for. Biden's will probably be just as good as Bernie's so long as you're low income, because you'll get the essentially-free public care that Sanders wants everyone to have. And which, grumble grumble grumble, the boomers who oppose Bernie Sanders' plan also already get, because they wish they could literally suck our souls from our bodies and kill us all during their march to the grave.

[Dacien]

Jesus christ......

Everyone agrees that moderate means "between left and right". The problem is, people are assigning that to anyone left of Trump. Being left of Trump does not make some moderate.

If the scale goes:

Left 100 ................Left 50..................0 moderate ................Right 50..................Right 100

Trump is Right 95.
Biden and what people incorrectly call moderates are like Right 20.
Right 20 =/= moderate

Fun with numbers.

[starlord]

Being "left" of Donald Fucking Trump and the alt-reich is NOT GOOD ENOUGH.

How fucking hard is this to comprehend at this point?

This is the fundamental argument of american lefties, be they progressives, Bernistas or whatever you call them. Being "Not as right-wing as the right wing" isn't good enough anymore.

sunseeker, i have known you for a while on this forum (both of us under different names).
normally you are pretty insightful and thoughtful poster. lately, you give way to your emotions too much.
i have tried really hard in this thread to try and steer people to the realization that your personal feelings in politics don't matter.
getting votes matters.

getting votes, that is, large amounts people motivated to support you, involves having a wide appeal.
understand that what you want, does not have a wide enough appeal.
i said, "bernie ought to reach more to non hardcore leftists"
you (yourself) said, "no compromise!!"
i said, "bernie fans need to admit there's a problem with the way they are perceived and work to address it".
you screamed, "its all lies!!"

well and here's the result.
he did not compromise, he did not police his people. he is not winning and has little hope of it.
i admit its pretty frustrating repeating the same stuff over and over after a while.

as skroe says, "claps don't win". say what you will about him, he does know the game.
if you want to win the game, advance your agenda, get what you want, you have to play to win.
bernie, cheered on by his fans, has not.
we are all here on the same side. i don't like right wing shit either else i would be over there drooling over trump. i want to see expanded healthcare, i want to support civil rights, workers rights, all that.

but it requires winning, and compromise, and reaching out.

now let the venting continue as scheduled.

[szechuan]

he did not police his people.

Another BS argument Twitter Trolls don't count, Bernie supporters on this forum have been mostly Normal unlike the BS Biden Propaganda from the DNC.

[Bodakane]

sunseeker, i have known you for a while on this forum (both of us under different names).
normally you are pretty insightful and thoughtful poster. lately, you give way to your emotions too much.
i have tried really hard in this thread to try and steer people to the realization that your personal feelings in politics don't matter.
getting votes matters.

getting votes, that is, large amounts people motivated to support you, involves having a wide appeal.
understand that what you want, does not have a wide enough appeal.
i said, "bernie ought to reach more to non hardcore leftists"
you (yourself) said, "no compromise!!"
i said, "bernie fans need to admit there's a problem with the way they are perceived and work to address it".
you screamed, "its all lies!!"

well and here's the result.
he did not compromise, he did not police his people. he is not winning and has little hope of it.
i admit its pretty frustrating repeating the same stuff over and over after a while.

as skroe says, "claps don't win". say what you will about him, he does know the game.
if you want to win the game, advance your agenda, get what you want, you have to play to win.
bernie, cheered on by his fans, has not.
we are all here on the same side. i don't like right wing shit either else i would be over there drooling over trump. i want to see expanded healthcare, i want to support civil rights, workers rights, all that.

but it requires winning, and compromise, and reaching out.

now let the venting continue as scheduled.

Short term thinking, as the country goes more right every day.

[Sunseeker]

but it requires winning, and compromise, and reaching out.

Compromise and reaching out has limits. There are some things you can't compromise on, there are some people you don't want to reach out to. And all you pro-compromise folks are more than happy to forget just how dark the Republican party goes. There are people who literally want to deport people over their skin color. To kill people over their political alignment. To make rape acceptable if she's wearing skimpy clothes, drinking or "asking for it". There are people who want beating their children to be legal. There are people who want no minimum wage. There are people who want to dump toxic chemicals into our lands and waterways. There are people who think you should be able to lock up gay kids in camps and torture them until they turn straight. There are people who want to nuke the middle east, nuke china. Fuck, some of them want to kill the jews!

Maybe you want to start your compromise with telling me exactly where you'd like to compromise on those issues?

Yeah we can talk about M4A compromise but fundamentally when you're talking about "compromise" and "reaching out" those are the people you want to compromise with, those are the people you want to reach out to. And they're not even the nutters in the corner! Some of these people are elected officials who have held public office for decades and their insanity is widely supported among their constituents.

So yeah, compromise is all swell and dandy when you don't have to actually talk about who you're trying to compromise with and what they want you to compromise on.

[starlord]

Short term thinking, as the country goes more right every day.

under a right wing president, yes.

consider that under the one you also call right wing, we got expanded healthcare, expanded environmental protections, major support and expansion to civil rights, and better relations with other countries.

[Bodakane]

under a right wing president, yes.

consider that under the one you also call right wing, we got expanded healthcare, expanded environmental protections, major support and expansion to civil rights, and better relations with other countries.

Talking to you is impossible.

Every post, requires me to start over and reexplain everything to you again.

I'm done. Carry on.

[starlord]

Compromise and reaching out has limits. There are some things you can't compromise on. And all you pro-compromise folks are more than happy to forget just how dark the Republican party goes. There are people who literally want to deport people over their skin color. To kill people over their political alignment. To make rape acceptable if she's wearing skimpy clothes, drinking or "asking for it". There are people who want beating their children to be legal. There are people who want no minimum wage. There are people who want to dump toxic chemicals into our lands and waterways. There are people who think you should be able to lock up gay kids in camps and torture them until they turn straight. There are people who want to nuke the middle east, nuke china. Fuck, some of them want to kill the jews!

Maybe you want to start your compromise with telling me exactly where you'd like to compromise on those issues?

Yeah we can talk about M4A compromise but fundamentally when you're talking about "compromise" and "reaching out" those are the people you want to compromise with, those are the people you want to reach out to. And they're not even the nutters in the corner! Some of these people are elected officials who have held public office for decades and their insanity is widely supported among their constituents.

So yeah, compromise is all swell and dandy when you don't have to actually talk about who you're trying to compromise with and what they want you to compromise on.

you didn't even have to compromise with repubs. just other dems.
our current house has done a bang up job of stonewalling republicans. dems have shut down trump mandates left and right. some still get through, but they do fight them.

- - - Updated - - -

Talking to you is impossible.

Every post, requires me to start over and reexplain everything to you again.

I'm done. Carry on.

are those not facts?