Mega-Thread: Democratic 2020 Primaries

[Rukh]

History seems to always tend towards egalitarianism.

No it really doesn't. We end up with egalitarianism when we work, struggle, die for it. And it's very easy to lose if people stop guarding it.

This reminds me of Comey's "The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice." horse shit. No it fucking doesn't. Very rarely in history have people truly faced justice, and when they do it's because people fought for it, burned their lives out for it.

[Sunseeker]

Great, then the DNC has no real justification for going after them. Putting yourself in an intractable position, then blaming others for not capitulating to you seems rather foolish.

Bernie is not a Democrat, so the DNC owes you Bernie supporters nothing. Your comment actually proves my point for me, thanks.

Neither are these so called "moderates" the DNC bends over backwards for. Moderates who already established are quite willing to vote for the other side. Why do they get a pass? Why does the DNC drop their drawers and wiggle their ass in their air for these people?

The hypocrisy is ridiculous!

Bernistas: We're going to stay home if you don't give us what we want!
DNC: Fine fuck you!
Moderates: We're gonna vote for Trump if we don't like your platform!
DNC: Oh hey wait lets not be hasty we can change!

If the argument is only that those people are more likely to vote, then really they're even worse than Bernie supporters. Because no only will they NOT be voting for you if you don't give them what they want, but they're gonna go out and vote for the other guy. Most of the Bernie folks end up staying home.

But nope, lets attack Sanders some more!

[Rukh]

Neither are these so called "moderates" the DNC bends over backwards for. Moderates who already established are quite willing to vote for the other side. Why do they get a pass? Why does the DNC drop their drawers and wiggle their ass in their air for these people?

Because they vote.

[Sunseeker]

Because they vote.

Which I addressed in the second half of my post. Thanks for not reading.

[Machismo]

Neither are these so called "moderates" the DNC bends over backwards for. Moderates who already established are quite willing to vote for the other side. Why do they get a pass? Why does the DNC drop their drawers and wiggle their ass in their air for these people?

The hypocrisy is ridiculous!

Bernistas: We're going to stay home if you don't give us what we want!
DNC: Fine fuck you!
Moderates: We're gonna vote for Trump if we don't like your platform!
DNC: Oh hey wait lets not be hasty we can change!

If the argument is only that those people are more likely to vote, then really they're even worse than Bernie supporters. Because no only will they NOT be voting for you if you don't give them what they want, but they're gonna go out and vote for the other guy. Most of the Bernie folks end up staying home.

But nope, lets attack Sanders some more!

Except, as we've seen, moderates tend to vote more than Bernie supporters. If Bernie supporters actually voted, then Bernie would be in the lead. The Democratic Party platform hasn't changed much in the past 20 years. If anything, they are more socially progressive.

This isn't about attacking Sanders, I actually like the guy. This is about pointing out what people's priorities actually are. The DNC has one main priority, defeating Trump. That's not the top priority of a great many of the Bernie supporters.

[Grapemask]

Great, then the DNC has no real justification for going after them. Putting yourself in an intractable position, then blaming others for not capitulating to you seems rather foolish.

Bernie is not a Democrat, so the DNC owes you Bernie supporters nothing. Your comment actually proves my point for me, thanks.

We always circle back to "the DNC is a private organization that doesn't need to cater to you," perplexingly coupled with, "but give us your damn vote, we'll lose without you."

[d00mGuArD]

I'm not discounting the idea the country is shifting to the right, it is specifically what I've been saying. I'm giving you the reason the country is shifting to the right and it is the Democrats habitual capitulation to the right. Its the failed notion of compromising before the fight, whether it be with legislation or who you choose as a candidate. You guys keep thinking moderation is anything left of right and you build your strategy around that. You are playing to not lose, instead of playing to win.

Wrong there. The democrats are shifting to the right because that is what their voters are voting for in the primaries and everywhere else. If their voters voted more leftish candidates, the party would follow.

Any party, left, right, middle, up... if they want to survive, they must have.... voters! Otherwise they will have the same fate Labour had in the UK with their huge disconnect from their voters.

Its this bullshit adherence to being moderate that is destroying the country and paved the way for Trump. The only way to achieve moderation is for the parties to be opposite and the Dems, for awhile now, think they can achieve moderation by coming to the table as moderate. That's why the country keeps moving to the right and McConnell becomes smugger and smugger. He refuses to budge and we just keep giving.

So don't lecture me about skipping to the end. I'm not that guy. I know we can't get M4A when people like current Republicans and insanely moderate screamers like you and Cubby are around. But what I do know, and you should too, if you were honest with yourself, is that we aren't going to get a moderate solution to the healthcare problem if one side comes to the table and leads with what they think the compromise should be. Things like this should be met in middle, so the midway point between M4A and "Trump's fuck everyone without money" is less to the right than the compromise ACA with all its cuts and changes and "Trump's fuck everyone without money".

If you argue against that, then you are being either intellectually dishonest or you're so caught up in bernie derangement syndrome, you can't see simple things in front of you.

Wrong there. Moderate for each country is where the average citizen, in this case the average american is.
In this case, the average american is much more to the right than what you personally believe is the middle, as proven by their voting practices. If moderates look right-leaning to you, maybe you should re-evaluate where the middle is.

[Canpinter]

But nope, lets attack Sanders some more!

Its not about winning, its about having someone to blame so they feel better if they lose.

[Machismo]

We always circle back to "the DNC is a private organization that doesn't need to cater to you," perplexingly coupled with, "but give us your damn vote, we'll lose without you."

It's little more than a numbers game. The DNC believes that they will get more votes in the right places, by going with a moderate like Biden. Not only that, the majority of Democrat voters believe the same. Moderates vote more than young progressives. Not only that, the votes only really matter in a few states, which seem to favor Biden over Bernie. Sure, bernie would get more votes in California, but the Demos would win California if they nominated a ham sandwich.

[Bodakane]

Wrong there. The democrats are shifting to the right because that is what their voters are voting for in the primaries and everywhere else. If their voters voted more leftish candidates, the party would follow.

Any party, left, right, middle, up... if they want to survive, they must have.... voters! Otherwise they will have the same fate Labour had in the UK with their huge disconnect from their voters.

You're not understanding the point.

[starlord]

Its not about winning, its about having someone to blame so they feel better if they lose.

seems like bernie fans are doing great at that.

[Sunseeker]

Except, as we've seen, moderates tend to vote more than Bernie supporters. If Bernie supporters actually voted, then Bernie would be in the lead. The Democratic Party platform hasn't changed much in the past 20 years. If anything, they are more socially progressive.

This isn't about attacking Sanders, I actually like the guy. This is about pointing out what people's priorities actually are. The DNC has one main priority, defeating Trump. That's not the top priority of a great many of the Bernie supporters.

You're a fool if you think the DNCs priority is defeating Trump. They want to win, yes, but Trump isn't bad by any measure for any of them.

And if you're willing to sacrifice everything for victory, what's the point in winning? You gave up everything that mattered.

[Vash The Stampede]

2. Your meme said "no climate action". Your source says $1.7 trillion. Pick one.

It's a fraction of the amount Bernie Sanders wants to spend, which in my opinion is still not enough. The ASCE estimates that we need at least 4.6 trillion by 2025 to rebuild our infrastructure and Bidens $1.7 Trillion in about 10 years seems short to say the least. A drop in the bucket may seem like a lot to you but to me it's nearly none.

3. Marijuana policy shifted to the states already. Even the GOP isn't doing much to enforce the federal ban. Your meme says "no legal weed" as if Biden would enforce what even Trump does not; your source claims he made (admittedly half-hearted) promises to proceed with decriminalisation. Pick one.

You think I'm the indecisive one? Joe Biden is the one who seems wishy washy over it.

"While he continues to oppose legalization, he does support more modest reforms such as decriminalizing possession, expunging past records, allowing medical cannabis and letting states set their own laws without federal interference.

But it was only less than four months ago that the candidate pontificated that the gateway theory might have some credence."

4. They have different plans. Sanders would spend more and would slash debts more drastically, but Biden also has plans to deal with the problem through expanding existing systems. Your meme, though, claims "no student debt relief". Pick one.

So if you have college loan debt then will Biden's plan remove it? Last I checked, Joe Biden did not mention a plan to cancel all student loan debt. Bernie Sanders has proposed to cancel all $1.6 trillion of student loan debt. One is not like the other.

9. Your opinion piece claims "Joe Biden is not a friend of unions". AFL-CIO, however, rated his legislative career at 86% union-friendly. Both are quite different from "a war on labor".

Citation needed.

Biden is a flawed candidate. He does not need more shit invented to be flung at him.

With the track record that Biden has, one does not need to invent shit when the shit is just sitting there for you to pick up.

[Fahrenheit]

You're a fool if you think the DNCs priority is defeating Trump. They want to win, yes, but Trump isn't bad by any measure for any of them.

And if you're willing to sacrifice everything for victory, what's the point in winning? You gave up everything that mattered.

That's hyperbole. Biden isn't the ideal candidate, but he'll have to do. He has a slightly better shot at beating Trump, and frankly, that's all that matters at this point. Everything else, as much as I would like it, is an after thought.

[Vash The Stampede]

Great, then the DNC has no real justification for going after them. Putting yourself in an intractable position, then blaming others for not capitulating to you seems rather foolish.

Bernie is not a Democrat, so the DNC owes you Bernie supporters nothing. Your comment actually proves my point for me, thanks.

So if Biden loses to Trump will you blame Bernie supporters for not voting Joe Biden? You can't have your cake and eat it too.

[d00mGuArD]

You're not understanding the point.

I am understanding the point. I know how tug-o-war is played.
But very simply put, what you perceive to be the middle, is not what the voters perceive to be the middle. The middle seems right-leaning to you.
But the middle in fact, is where the average citizen is, not what you perceive it to be. Maybe you should re-evaluate your opinion about what the middle is in the US.

[starlord]

So if Biden loses to Trump will you blame Bernie supporters for not voting Joe Biden? You can't have your cake and eat it too.

i remember warren voters being blamed for bernie not doing better. the cake was already eaten.

if you constantly threaten to not vote if you don't get your way, why is it so unfair to take you at word?
"we won't vote for anyone but bernie!!"
"ok"
"b-b-but how could you blame us for not voting for anyone but bernie???!"

vote or not, you removed yourself as a factor already in the eyes of politicians.

[Grapemask]

This isn't about attacking Sanders, I actually like the guy. This is about pointing out what people's priorities actually are. The DNC has one main priority, defeating Trump. That's not the top priority of a great many of the Bernie supporters.

That priority of beating Trump is basically why Sanders is losing. And it's not because they personally dislike his policy - its that they view Biden, being a moderate, as a more probable way of beating Trump. Biden's voters overwhelmingly say beating Trump is the most important issue. So that is to say, the people who are overwhelmingly deciding this election are the same people who would overwhelmingly vote for Sanders - or a ham sandwich - if it won the nomination. This is what folks like Skroe and others seem to recognize on one hand, when they say defeating Trump is the most important thing in this election and this election is nothing but a referendum on Trump, then dismiss when they flip the argument and say Bernie Sanders' movement is about an ideology and that IDEOLOGY IS FAILING HA HA HA. Overwhelmingly, people believe ideology doesn't matter for 2020.

What's interesting about this is that it's being entirely decided by the belief that a moderate will win the general better than a progressive. But the data tells us Bernie Sanders would have beat Trump in the swing states. So if we're saying that data is wrong, and instead we're going with our gut that moderates win, maybe we should look at the data about moderates - and it turns out they all lose. Progressive Democrat McGovern may have lost the 1972 election by losing 49 states - but 12 years later, moderate Democrat Mondale, seen as the answer to progressive Carter's loss, also lost 49 states and 5 more electoral votes, making it the biggest loss in Democrat history. And they continued to lose until Clinton, progressive for his time, and Obama, who also ran on a platform progressive for its time.

[Bodakane]

I am understanding the point. I know how tug-o-war is played.
But very simply put, what you perceive to be the middle, is not what the voters perceive to be the middle. The middle seems right-leaning to you.
But the middle in fact, is where the average citizen is, not what you perceive it to be. Maybe you should re-evaluate your opinion about what the middle is in the US.

No. We have two parties. We only vote on what we have.

Regardless, you are arguing with me by restating part of my point.

I know the country is voting more right, I'ver been saying the country is becoming more right. I'm explaining why.

[breadisfunny]

i remember warren voters being blamed for bernie not doing better. the cake was already eaten.

if you constantly threaten to not vote if you don't get your way, why is it so unfair to take you at word?
"we won't vote for anyone but bernie!!"
"ok"
"b-b-but how could you blame us for not voting for anyone but bernie???!"

vote or not, you removed yourself as a factor already in the eyes of politicians.

then clearly you can win without those votes. if biden loses don't come crying to us that you lost.