Best replacement for Ion.

[bubasparks]

Those forums already exists, they're usually called official forums. You wont get game devs to read random forums for "excellent" ideas made by the community. The players in this game are extremely arrogant for some reason and think their ideas are amazing things nobody has ever thought about before.

In reality i'm sure the people that spend their life working fulltime with these things have thought about a big chunk of the amazing ideas the community comes up with.

Well that's the problem we need discussion between both sides, not like it is now,when devs saying we know better and players formulate their idea in like one sentence. Discussion, dialog thats what important. We don't have that. Btw there were players who actually made walls of balanced suggestions, and there were players who liked those, but those ideas were completely ignored, instead of discussed with devs.

Yes those who spend their life working fulltime with game thought about many ideas (did they really?), but do they play their game like, really play...do they care about game, do they have any idea of what game needs? Sorry but at this point, for past few years, i have feeling they don't, and lack of fresh ideas is just obvious.

I don't see any negatives in finally starting proper dialog with community.

Again, I'm not saying players know better...I'm saying players can suggest what would they gladly see in game, what would make them happier customers. Discussion, dialog.

[iamback]

It is absurd to sit as far back as we all are from the inner workings at Blizzard and randomly guess at who who do a job well. Much less a job that none of them have had. Of course we live in a world where feelings are more important than facts so why not pick people based on zero information.

Going by your logic, HR departments and performace evaluations are completely irrelevant. We live in a perfect world where people are all great at their jobs

[Krille]

You don't have to be a cook to tell if a dish is badly cooked right? Games are made to entertain, simple.

No but i don't walk up to the chef telling him to add certain spices either, do you? Theres one thing telling that a game is shit, another knowing how to solve it.

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Well that's the problem we need discussion between both sides, not like it is now,when devs saying we know better and players formulate their idea in like one sentence. Discussion, dialog thats what important. We don't have that. Btw there were players who actually made walls of balanced suggestions, and there were players who liked those, but those ideas were completely ignored, instead of discussed with devs.

Yes those who spend their life working fulltime with game thought about many ideas (did they really?), but do they play their game like, really play...do they care about game, do they have any idea of what game needs? Sorry but at this point, for past few years, i have feeling they don't, and lack of fresh ideas is just obvious.

I don't see any negatives in finally starting dialog with community.

You know all these "shit changes" that Blizzard has made over the years? They're based on community feedback, most of them. I think we can all agree that the community doesn't know shit about actual game design, unless they're actually educated or have experience.

[burek]

Well that's the problem we need discussion between both sides, not like it is now,when devs saying we know better and players formulate their idea in like one sentence. Discussion, dialog thats what important. We don't have that. Btw there were players who actually made walls of balanced suggestions, and there were players who liked those, but those ideas were completely ignored, instead of discussed with devs.

Those suggestions are usually walls of text saying 'go back to previous design'. Of course they are ignored, there is nothing to be discussed there.

[bubasparks]

You know all these "shit changes" that Blizzard has made over the years? They're based on community feedback, most of them. I think we can all agree that the community doesn't know shit about actual game design, unless they're actually educated or have experience.

Yeah on community feedback and never discussed... And you shouldn't generalize whole community. Yes maybe they are not game designers, but wthey have ideas, concepts, fantasies which could be transformed and implemented, one way or another, in the game, it is is possible.

[Lei]

Just imagine a huge spiderweb, that covers the whole forest with hundreds of spiders, each of them working in different parts and sub-sections of the web. Some are weaving the foundations, some are making sticky trap threads and some are up in the canopy expanding the web to catch those elusive fast flying insects that never seem to fly deep enough to snare them.

Yes, the spider in the middle needs to know the web isn't going to fall apart, it wants to grow the web and catch more tiny little insects every month, but it doesn't need to know the exact pattern each team of spiders is weaving. The spiders know what to do. They need occasional direction, they need help from other teams (and occasionally spiders higher up) to clear obstacles - but they are spiders after all, they know how to weave web.

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That's because it's his job to know and he's good at his job. Note that knowing his shit isn't the same as being in every meeting telling everyone how to do shit. It's actually the opposite - engaging and letting your team tell YOU how they are solving their missions and problems.

If you're really interested in how modern software development works, have a look at these two short videos: link1 link2

I'm not saying he should dictate every details in the game. I'm saying he should be the crucial link between the players and his teams that has the last word in development. He should know what his players (would) like or not. In this expac 3/3 ideas have failed. That's not a good ratio. In Legion up to the last patch, the artifacts were kind of failing, the legendaries were a mess. The only feature that kept the game on a positive side was m+s. And then somehow the last patch managed to turn the whole thing pretty much around for many people, even to be acknowledged as "best expac evur since xyz!" (aftr wod, yeah).

[Krille]

Yeah on community feedback and never discussed... And you shouldn't generalize whole community. Yes maybe they are not game designers, but wthey have ideas, concepts, fantasies which could be transformed and implemented, one way or another, in the game, it is is possible.

But that's what i'm saying. Community ideas have been made possible for WoW and implemented before. "Bring back x thing", then they bring it back "this fucking sucks, remove it".

This community doesn't understand what it wants and Blizzard should listen less to the community. Gauge feedback and responses to certain content, don't take community ideas and implement them, it never works.

[bubasparks]

Those suggestions are usually walls of text saying 'go back to previous design'. Of course they are ignored, there is nothing to be discussed there.

Well that's why voting, discussion, you know DIALOG would help.

You ppl with all that negativity... no wonder we have what we have

[Kolento]

But that's what i'm saying. Community ideas have been made possible for WoW and implemented before. "Bring back x thing", then they bring it back "this fucking sucks, remove it".

This community doesn't understand what it wants and Blizzard should listen less to the community. Gauge feedback and responses to certain content, don't take community ideas and implement them, it never works.

Who are you to say that what should be best for them then?

[Krille]

Well that's why voting, discussion, you know DIALOG would help.

You ppl with all that negativity... no wonder we have what we have

Mate, how many people aren't calling the Benthic gear "terrible design" right now? Whose idea was it to bring back items you can purchase for currencies? Hint hint, the community.

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Who are you to say that what should be best for them then?

I'm not saying anything, what are you on about? Crawl back into your cave mister.

[Kolento]

I'm not saying he should dictate every details in the game. I'm saying he should be the crucial link between the players and his teams that has the last word in development. He should know what his players (would) like or not. In this expac 3/3 ideas have failed. That's not a good ratio. In Legion up to the last patch, the artifacts were kind of failing, the legendaries were a mess. The only feature that kept the game on a positive side was m+s. And then somehow the last patch managed to turn the whole thing pretty much around for many people, even to be acknowledged as "best expac evur since xyz!" (aftr wod, yeah).

Ion is the best dev we've had so far, i think you know that.

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Mate, how many people aren't calling the Benthic gear "terrible design" right now? Whose idea was it to bring back items you can purchase for currencies? Hint hint, the community.

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I'm not saying anything, what are you on about? Crawl back into your cave mister.

You did. You said the community does not know what they want. You know it all. Tell us.

[Krille]

Ion is the best dev we've had so far, i think you know that.

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You did. You said the community does not know what they want. You know it all. Tell us.

Because they complain about their own ideas when they're implemented.

[Faesroll]

..or die in a fire.

What the fuck

[bubasparks]

But that's what i'm saying. Community ideas have been made possible for WoW and implemented before. "Bring back x thing", then they bring it back "this fucking sucks, remove it".

This community doesn't understand what it wants and Blizzard should listen less to the community. Gauge feedback and responses to certain content, don't take community ideas and implement them, it never works.

Were they properly discussed? No! And btw whos final decision was to implement those "sh1t ideas"? They could just ignore those, and maybe game would be at better state now. And thats all because of not existent dialog.

[Kolento]

Because they complain about their own ideas when they're implemented.

How so? Can you elaborate. Maybe quote a particular individual who contradicted himself?

[Krille]

How so? Can you elaborate. Maybe quote a particular individual who contradicted himself?

I'm talking about general perception of new game mechanics that were long sought after by the community. There are threads on this forum about how "shit design" the benthic gear is.

The community isn't ONE voice that say the same thing. Some people like to claim they talk for the entire community, but in reality there are multiple versions who all want this game to play exactly their way.

[bubasparks]

Mate, how many people aren't calling the Benthic gear "terrible design" right now? Whose idea was it to bring back items you can purchase for currencies? Hint hint, the community.

Mate, im sorry, but as far as i remember mostly people were complaining about PvP vendors... not pve gear. Again, for 100000th time, was there any discussion? No.

[Krille]

Mate, im sorry, but as far as i remember mostly people were complaining about PvP vendors... not pve gear. Again, for 100000th time, was there any discussion? No.

There have been shouts for both, but the PVP vendor was never implemented.

[Kolento]

I'm talking about general perception of new game mechanics that were long sought after by the community. There are threads on this forum about how "shit design" the benthic gear is.

The community isn't ONE voice that say the same thing. Some people like to claim they talk for the entire community, but in reality there are multiple versions who all want this game to play exactly their way.

How can you be sure the same people contradicted themselves? Who are you to decide what is the right way to think and play? People are entitled to their opinions

[Krille]

How can you be sure the same people contradicted themselves?

I can't? Never claimed I could. I have always said the community wants multiple different things. But each and everyone claim they know how to solve the issues the game has. Be it firing the game director, making it more casual friendly, making it more difficult to acquire loot etc.

Do you have anything to add? Or are you just going to keep asking dumb questions?