[8.2] Eternal Palace - World First Thread

[Vluggedaafie]

I just detest the issue presenting opinion as fact to support your own pov
Its a thing in football supporters called hooligans and politicians.

[Life-Binder]

Paragon couldnt keep it up anymore

they went flaccid, while Method grew harder and stronger




but i understand WF-ing LK and 2/3-rds of Cata is enough to make you untouchable for all eternity and no guild can ever surpass you ever again

[TJ]

Paragon couldnt keep it up anymore

they went flaccid, while Method grew harder and stronger




but i understand WF-ing LK and 2/3-rds of Cata is enough to make you untouchable for all eternity and no guild can ever surpass you ever again

You mean Method won because the better players stopped playing.

Maybe you should answer this question that you've conveniently ignored.

I've got a question if you're daring to answer, when both Paragon and Method were raiding, who won out of the two all the time? You're right that Method is indeed #1 in terms of the most World Firsts achieved.

It's like a boxing match between two competitors, one competitor has consistently bested the other and then ended up retiring. But since the other competitor has defeated all others since then, it is undoubtedly better than the only competitor that had constantly won?

[Raejer]

Game was harder before, it's easier now. Doesn't matter regardless, Paragon would beat Method no matter how hard it is/was because that's how much better they were.



How is the requirements different today than before? They always raided for a ridiculous amount of hours and pulls.

They were at the top in the game's peak, though, in terms of playerbase and competition, there were so many good guilds that were getting world firsts in say tier 11 and right behind others. Just have to look at how much quicker they killed Lich King and Ragnaros, complete unrivaled dominance. They also didn't disband in Cata and didn't become number 1 until tier 10 ICC.



Lmao yes. Method win at a dead game in comparison, big grats. Put this Method back in Cata and you'd see them getting their ass handed to them. Remember that this Method is a merger with Rapid Eye Movement who were a top 25 (?) guild. The game is way easier in comparison, my nan could play the game now because everything is easier and simplified for you.

Method can never get near to the domination shown by Paragon. Facts.

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It goes to your posts. More WF's because a guild disbanded and no longer competes, solid logic.

Players today are better than players at the time. No raid or boss from back in the day (with the exception of 25H Ragnaros) could hold a candle to any of the modern endbosses. Look at Lich King or Sunwell KJ and compare them to something like Blackhand, Tomb KJ or Uu'nat, they are so many times easier it's insane.

[kingpinuk880]

That's exactly what the data says:

https://www.wowprogress.com/achievement/5123
https://www.wowprogress.com/achievement/5121
https://www.wowprogress.com/achievement/5120
https://www.wowprogress.com/achievement/5116
https://www.wowprogress.com/achievement/5803

That's when both guilds were most competitive against each other with most "end" bosses, and Paragon are clearly superior. So if you're just going to link the numbers again, please don't bother.

Leaving out the wod raids I see, tier 17 and 18 method beat paragon in 20 man mythic. You can’t compare today’s method to paragon in 2011.

The game itself and the fights are so different. The people participating are different so it’s a pointless comparison. I think there is an ex paragon guy in method currently, his is the only opinion on the subject I would be listen to. The rest is fanboy bias and it has gotten so old and tiresome.

[TJ]

So method having almost double the amount of world firsts isn't data to you? And you linked paragon beating method for 2 tiers in cata - method did exactly the same in WoD. Literally nothing I've said is inaccurate or made up

It's called cherry picking data to support your argument. The question is who is the better guild? The data we have for that is Paragon vs Method in 25 man raiding, and Paragon prove superior by a long shot.

[Yunaqt]

Congrats Method and great job Limit. Was a super exciting race down to the wire.

It's actually super great to see the race getting so much coverage now vs previously which consisted of intermittently refreshing wowprogress.

[gobarj]

You mean Method won because the better players stopped playing.

Maybe you should answer this question that you've conveniently ignored.

You should ignore that guy, he definitely knows but doesn't want to admit it. I'll give credit where credit is due, the fact is just that Method almost always lost against Paragon back when they were active. I entirely agree that Method is one of the top guilds of all time, they've been in the game since pretty much the start and have achieved the most world firsts. Definitely the strongest guild today, but not always.

[Azerate]

Paragon was unbeatable during their peak time, and clearly miles better than everyone else, the only problem is that their peak time did not last long.

So yeah, overall Method is objectively the better guild because they got more world firsts. I don't think that's debatable unless you're intention is trolling. You could maybe argue that paragon players were more skilled at the time of their world firsts, but nothing more. If anything, Method has outlasted them, sometimes you have to settle for becoming the best due to the better guys leaving. Doesn't take from your achievements at all. It's the same in professional classic (real life) sports.

[Clozer]

You mean Method won because the better players stopped playing.

Maybe you should answer this question that you've conveniently ignored.

Whats your point of comparing old method with dead paragon? Dead paragon was better than old method everyone knows that.

And nobody knows if new method is better than dead paragon and quite sure you can't come up with "data" to show otherwise.

[TJ]

Leaving out the wod raids I see, tier 17 and 18 method beat paragon in 20 man mythic. You can’t compare today’s method to paragon in 2011.

The game itself and the fights are so different. The people participating are different so it’s a pointless comparison. I think there is an ex paragon guy in method currently, his is the only opinion on the subject I would be listen to. The rest is fanboy bias and it has gotten so old and tiresome.

Sure, if you want to add them you could. Method beat them, hands down. But would you compare Liverpool and Man United today and completely disregard the past of United? I don't think so.

[amaze123]

Grats to Method. After following this race from the start, I have to say that I'm disappointed in the effort that Limit put in at the end. I'm not talking about skill level or strat, but their pure desire to win this thing. They were neck and neck with Method in a real dog fight the night before. It was unfolding to be a real exciting finish, but Limit essentially threw in the towel and quit the night before. Their RL basically conceded the win in his stream. Instead of taking advantage while EU/AS were sleeping and closing the gap, they decided to get a full nights sleep and show up again at the regular raid time. You guys are in the race of your lives. Both teams can smell a victory. Why not just take a 2 hr break to get away from the keyboard, grab a power nap and get back at it. You're still back on before Method logs in (with all that RedBull in you, could you really sleep anyways?) This is what ya'll signed up for and why you were brought to the sphere. It's just disappointing that they weren't wired competitively to push it all the way to the finish line win or lose.

Honestly it does not seem like Limit is close to a kill right now. They probably need another round of gear or swap to 2 healers and reprogress the entire fight.

[gobarj]

You literally cherry picked by not posting the WoD kills - in which paragon lost. Paragon beat method in cata, Method beat paragon in WoD. Please tell me how any of this proves paragon to be superior by a long shot

I think we need someone to go over all kills Method and Paragon have when they were both active in that tier and count how many times they won each respectively (ignoring when Paragon went 10 man since I don't think Method went 10 man).

[TJ]

Whats your point of comparing old method with dead paragon? Dead paragon was better than old method everyone knows that.

And nobody knows if new method is better than dead paragon and quite sure you can't come up with "data" to show otherwise.

I'm just adding to the debate, I didn't bring it up or start the whole conversation.

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You literally cherry picked by not posting the WoD kills - in which paragon lost. Paragon beat method in cata, Method beat paragon in WoD. Please tell me how any of this proves paragon to be superior by a long shot

No, I posted when they were both fully competitive with strong rosters.

[stevenho]

Paragon quit because the game was turning to garbage and their players were leaving. They went 10 man but couldn't even carry on with that.

You're clueless.
They came back from the 10man casual stuff to do 20mans, got beat twice, then quit.

[rodicboxer]

I can't comment about the difficulty of the Cata bosses in comparison because I haven't done today's bosses on Mythic.

I agree with Heroic LK, but to a degree the limited attempts does prove the gap in skill between guilds as you have to make the attempts count and can't brute force it. Either way, the difference in time between LK number 1 and 2 kill is ridiculously impressive and dominant.



Method have raided for longer because Paragon disbanded.

Pretty simple really.

If u say this, paragon was defeated by Method and then disbanded

Pretty simple really

[Vorkreist]

You keep saying that, but the number of world firsts is largely inflated since majority of guilds no longer exist.

The only thing inflated is your attempt at downplaying method's achievements with stupid statements and comparisons.

Thats like saying in any sport or competition any following dominant generation is just worse than the previous one because the previous one doesn't compete any more.

[Smash Adams]

Hopefully Limit retools and comes back next tier just as strong. When they finally do manage to win a WF, all these crushing defeats are going to make it so much sweeter.

[Monstermash]

Oh my god, are you special? Are you actually special?

Take the combined total hours of how long Method have done the boss in and take away 16 hours (THE EXTRA TIME LIMIT HAVE HAD RAIDING), that's a kill in the early hours of this morning, by the looks of things a whole day before Limit. A day before is not a competitive race. It doesn't matter if Method blew through the other bosses quicker and struggled on a later one, because they still had 16 hours fewer than Limit. Limit's tactics and/or advantages maybe favoured that boss and allowed them to kill it quicker, whilst Method's and arguably their higher skill levels favoured the earlier ones, who knows. Either way, METHOD WOULD'VE KILLED IT 16 HOURS SOONER IF IT WAS EVEN.

How the hell can you say the 16 hour headstart is non existent when they've raided for 16 hours more? It's never irrelevant BECAUSE IT'S 16 HOURS EXTRA ON ALL THE BOSSES.

Talk about a goddamn hypocrite trying to say strawman when you're strawmanning yourself. How can you not get it into your head, 16 hours extra is 16 hours regardless, the race would not be a race if the terms were equal. Don't respond because you are too stupid to see you are wrong, yes.

I have wowprogress to help me show that to you.

Method killed Queen's Court on July 18, at 15:12
Limit killed Queen's Court on July 18, at 19:45

Method killed Queen's Court 4.5 hours ahead of Limit.

Limit killed Zakul on July 20, at 17:52
Method killed Zakul on July 21, at 19:59

Are you following me so far?

Here's where it gets interesting.

If, Limit played on EU and started at the same time as Method, Limit would have killed Queen's Court at July 18, 19:45 + 16 hours. So their Court kill would have been on July 19, at 11:45. And then you add the time difference between their Court kill and their Zakul kill to find out where they would have been on an EU server. There was 46 hours (rounded) in between their Court kill and their Zakul kill. If we add 46 hours to July 19, 11:45, we'd get a Zakul kill at July 21, 9:45. 10 hours ahead of Method, assuming they were both on an EU server. There was no 16 hour headstart advantage at that point

Removed anything that can be perceived as toxicity so mods cannot remove it and spare you the embarrassment.

[TJ]

The difference between now and then is now the grind never eases up. I remember an interview with RogerBrown back a few expansions ago when he argued that they didn’t actually play that much more than other raiders, they just front loaded their progression. You’d occasionally hear about top end guilds taking things really easy, from Nihilum outright taking breaks once they got geared, a little more intense for Paragon on a relaxing farm schedule (but also raiding ptr) to the current grind all the time paradigm.

Yeah, that's true. Top guilds would pretty much disappear outside of the first month of progression/killing. Must be very taxing to "have" to play for such a long period of time.

If u say this, paragon was defeated by Method and then disbanded

Pretty simple really

If you're naive enough to believe that, then yes. Pretty simple.