[8.2] Eternal Palace - World First Thread

[Jayma]

You're going to get people who cannot think critically argue that "HURRR METHOD KILLED IT WITH 2 THEREFORE IT IS SUPERIOR" without taking into considerations other factors like individual player skill, rng, and execution. Method's healers are unquestionably better than Limit's, so 2-healing is definitely an option for them, but it may not be an option for Limit. Each guild has its own strengths and weaknesses, and strategies are supposed to complement that. Method's strategy worked because of their powerhouse healers. Whereas with Limit, they have really strong dps, as evidenced by the fact they were able to kill 3 adds with 15 dps even before the hotfix. Something Method couldn't do with 16 dps.

&
to be fair I think even method would have used a different comp if all things were equal and they had gear on every class.
They do a great job adjusting to their strengths and weaknesses.

[Monstermash]

Thought he was pretty horrible, myself. Different opinions, I suppose.

Yeah, I'm kind of with you. When he was talking pure gameplay and analysis, he was quite alright, but when he was trying to be funny (like the time he put a fishhead on, big yikes) it was just cringey a lot of times.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm talking about the exact same thing. You're trying to say I'm strawmanning whilst strawmanning yourself, what a hypocrite.

It doesn't matter what happened, because Method were still 16 hours behind. That's SIXTEEN hours behind, so regardless of when who killed what, Limit still lost and had an advantage. If they didn't have the 16 hours then the 2 Zakul kills would've been even closer and Method would've won by a bigger margin (a margin we don't know yet because Limit haven't killed the last boss), making the race even less competitive.

Is that easy enough for you to understand? Or can you not comprehend basic English and call people dumb whilst talking gibberish yourself.

You're still not following me.

Method closed the 16 hour headstart gap when they killed Court first and got to Zakul first.
Limit killed Court after Method did, and killed Zakul first, more than 16 hours ahead of Method.

After that, the inherent 16 hour headstart given to Limit from playing on NA was non-existent.

I hope that is easy enough for you to understand. I'm not going to respond to you again if you're just going to plug your fingers into your ear and yell NAH NAH I CAN'T HEAR YOU.

[TJ]

Dude. The game is objectively harder the longer it exists, you can't compare Uunat or Kil'jaden to ANY boss before legion, with the exception of maybe heroic 25 rag - this isn't to say the game was easy in paragon's time - it has always been hard at the top end, but for different reasons. Mechanically the game has never been harder and less forgiving

Considering most of the abilities have been removed or implemented into other abilities to be automatically applied, there's much fewer buttons to press, classes have been gutted, procs are shown automatically, gameplay and dps altering glyphs have been removed, and many more things, I'm going to disagree.

I can't talk specifically about the bosses and mechanics as I haven't done them on Mythic, but the general gameplay of the classes and rotations nowhere near as hard. There used to be so many things to keep track of if you wanted to truly perform gamebreaking dps/hps (challenging for rank 1 parses), now it's like 2-3 buttons that require next to no thought and are very straight forward.

[Monstermash]

&
to be fair I think even method would have used a different comp if all things were equal and they had gear on every class.
They do a great job adjusting to their strengths and weaknesses.

Yeah, I hope Limit can find a way to fix that, otherwise they'll always be a step behind Method even if most individual Limit players become more mechanically skilled than most Method players.

[rodicboxer]

No one comes close

paragon was the best during icc till fl + hm, but it doen't mean anything

U can't compare it to other guilds from different periods

Bosses from Cata are harder than all previous ones, with guilds around the world really start to figure out what preparations are need for such a world first race.

Besides that Heroic LK has a limited attempt each week, so u can't compare the time gap for this boss to all the bosses now.

[Makabreska]

It was Blizzard who made Paragon, and like 70% of the whole WoW playerbase, to quit WoW during WoD.

Nope, Paragon did it to themselves, with Finnish only recruitment pool.

I can't talk specifically about the bosses and mechanics as I haven't done them on Mythic, but the general gameplay of the classes and rotations nowhere near as hard. There used to be so many things to keep track of if you wanted to truly perform gamebreaking dps/hps (challenging for rank 1 parses), now it's like 2-3 buttons that require next to no thought and are very straight forward.

Ok, so you dismissed major factor. Class complexity is more or less irrelevant. After a few weeks of playing ANY spec, you just press buttons automatically. Mythic bosses difficulty is off the roof now, comparing to the past. And that where encounter challenge lies, in fight itself not in spec rotation. Oh, and "2-3 buttons" is a bullshit, that has been repeated over and over this xpac.

[Tsyplenk]

You're still not following me.

Method closed the 16 hour headstart gap when they killed Court first and got to Zakul first.
Limit killed Court after Method did, and killed Zakul first, more than 16 hours ahead of Method.

After that, the inherent 16 hour headstart given to Limit from playing on NA was non-existent.

I hope that is easy enough for you to understand. I'm not going to respond to you again if you're just going to plug your fingers into your ear and yell NAH NAH I CAN'T HEAR YOU.

Oh my god, are you special? Are you actually special?

Take the combined total hours of how long Method have done the boss in and take away 16 hours (THE EXTRA TIME LIMIT HAVE HAD RAIDING), that's a kill in the early hours of this morning, by the looks of things a whole day before Limit. A day before is not a competitive race. It doesn't matter if Method blew through the other bosses quicker and struggled on a later one, because they still had 16 hours fewer than Limit. Limit's tactics and/or advantages maybe favoured that boss and allowed them to kill it quicker, whilst Method's and arguably their higher skill levels favoured the earlier ones, who knows. Either way, METHOD WOULD'VE KILLED IT 16 HOURS SOONER IF IT WAS EVEN.

How the hell can you say the 16 hour headstart is non existent when they've raided for 16 hours more? It's never irrelevant BECAUSE IT'S 16 HOURS EXTRA ON ALL THE BOSSES.

Talk about a goddamn hypocrite trying to say strawman when you're strawmanning yourself. How can you not get it into your head, 16 hours extra is 16 hours regardless, the race would not be a race if the terms were equal. Don't respond because you are too stupid to see you are wrong, yes.

[barackohmama]

Paragon world firsts = 7
Method world firsts = 13

Pretty simple really

If you are comparing two guilds, of which one does not exist any longer, it's not that simple. Paragon was the better guild of the two back then, but Method is better now(for obvious reasons).

[TJ]

paragon was the best during icc till fl + hm, but it doen't mean anything

U can't compare it to other guilds from different periods

Bosses from Cata are harder than all previous ones, with guilds around the world really start to figure out what preparations are need for such a world first race.

Besides that Heroic LK has a limited attempt each week, so u can't compare the time gap for this boss to all the bosses now.

I can't comment about the difficulty of the Cata bosses in comparison because I haven't done today's bosses on Mythic.

I agree with Heroic LK, but to a degree the limited attempts does prove the gap in skill between guilds as you have to make the attempts count and can't brute force it. Either way, the difference in time between LK number 1 and 2 kill is ridiculously impressive and dominant.

Paragon world firsts = 7
Method world firsts = 13

Pretty simple really

Method have raided for longer because Paragon disbanded.

Pretty simple really.

[Puupi]

Nope, Paragon did it to themselves, with Finnish only recruitment pool.

Finnish only recruitment pool caused people to quit because they didn't like the game?

[gobarj]

Oh my god, are you special? Are you actually special?

Take the combined total hours of how long Method have done the boss in and take away 16 hours (THE EXTRA TIME LIMIT HAVE HAD RAIDING), that's a kill in the early hours of this morning, by the looks of things a whole day before Limit. A day before is not a competitive race. It doesn't matter if Method blew through the other bosses quicker and struggled on a later one, because they still had 16 hours fewer than Limit. Limit's tactics and/or advantages maybe favoured that boss and allowed them to kill it quicker, whilst Method's and arguably their higher skill levels favoured the earlier ones, who knows. Either way, METHOD WOULD'VE KILLED IT 16 HOURS SOONER IF IT WAS EVEN.

How the hell can you say the 16 hour headstart is non existent when they've raided for 16 hours more? It's never irrelevant BECAUSE IT'S 16 HOURS EXTRA ON ALL THE BOSSES.

Talk about a goddamn hypocrite trying to say strawman when you're strawmanning yourself. How can you not get it into your head, 16 hours extra is 16 hours regardless, the race would not be a race if the terms were equal. Don't respond because you are too stupid to see you are wrong, yes.

I'm not the quoted person but you're right here, though you're missing one essential thing:

Assume guild A has a 10 day headstart and reaches final boss
Guild B has no headstart and is on the final boss as well

Both guilds bang their head for days and days and they're pretty equal on the progress to the point they're stuck on the same phase, still following me here? Blizzard then decides to nerf it and completely nullifying the headstart in the first place.

This is kind of what happened with Azshara, many guilds caught up and were stuck on P3 until Blizzard nerfed it. If Blizzard _never_ touched any boss with any nerfs, then yes, you could say it was a proper headstart.

My point is that the 16 hours were negated due to hotfixes that were required to progress the phase because Limit reached it well in advance, which allowed Method to catch up. Had the nerfs been in place before Limit reached the boss then it would be a proper 16 hour headstart.

[Asrialol]

Considering most of the abilities have been removed or implemented into other abilities to be automatically applied, there's much fewer buttons to press, classes have been gutted, procs are shown automatically, gameplay and dps altering glyphs have been removed, and many more things, I'm going to disagree.

I can't talk specifically about the bosses and mechanics as I haven't done them on Mythic, but the general gameplay of the classes and rotations nowhere near as hard. There used to be so many things to keep track of if you wanted to truly perform gamebreaking dps/hps (challenging for rank 1 parses), now it's like 2-3 buttons that require next to no thought and are very straight forward.

Oh yeah. Spamming Shadow Bolt only in SWP wad hard. Spamming Frostbolt in MC was hard. The rotations was so hard!!!

No. Never were, never has been. It's a made up argument by people who think classes are pruned. And you look just as silly each time it's mentioned.

[Woobels]

Finnish only recruitment pool caused people to quit because they didn't like the game?

I think they openly stated this was part of the reason they threw in the towel, debating it is fairly useless. Hard to field a roster with only Finnish people if your standards are really high though people quitting the game more obviously didn't help.

[TJ]

Finnish only recruitment pool caused people to quit because they didn't like the game?

Both good points, really. Paragon gimped themselves to a degree by only allowing Finnish players (although, by the looks of things this helped in keeping the skill level of their guild high), but Blizzard gimped them by having the game turn to garbage so a large majority of players both bad and good quit.

[Makabreska]

Finnish only recruitment pool caused people to quit because they didn't like the game?

It made paragon disband, who you mentioned:

It was Blizzard who made Paragon, and like 70% of the whole WoW playerbase, to quit WoW during WoD.

They mentioned it in their bb post.

[Einsz]

Paragon world firsts = 7
Method world firsts = 13

Pretty simple really

You have to keep in mind Method started getting world firsts because other better guilds disbanded and there was nobody left to compete then they started their PR movement promoting their "skill".

[Life-Binder]

because Paragon disbanded.

thats noones problem, but Paragons

and thus, Method is the #1 raiding guild in WoWs overall history (from Onyxia to Azshara)



but tbf Paragon is probably the #2 guild overall, even ahead of still currently active guilds

[TJ]

Oh yeah. Spamming Shadow Bolt only in SWP wad hard. Spamming Frostbolt in MC was hard. The rotations was so hard!!!

No. Never were, never has been. It's a made up argument by people who think classes are pruned. And you look just as silly each time it's mentioned.

Who mentioned Classic and TBC? Classes are pruned, it's not a made up argument at all, it's a completely legit one made by former hardcore raiders who are shocked at how easy and straight forward classes are to play nowadays.

[gobarj]

I think they openly stated this was part of the reason they threw in the towel, debating it is fairly useless. Hard to field a roster with only Finnish people if your standards are really high though people quitting the game more obviously didn't help.

Paragon indeed quit because it was hard to recruit Finnish players. I'm not sure what the big argument is on Method v Paragon, the easiest way to look at it is that Paragon was the reigning champion in their time against all other active guilds then. Similarly, Method is the reigning champion right now vs all active guilds.

Simple!

[Napee]

Hahahahahahahahahahaha