Sunreavers supporting Sylvanas?

[Mehrunes]

On her own authority as the Leader of the Kirin Tor, that which is stated on her character page on the official World of Warcraft website written by Blizzard itself. If anything, the Council of Six meeting plotline is the retcon because Blizzard realized that the poor Horde couldn't return to Dalaran if Jaina was still the supreme leader of the Kirin Tor as was clearly presented in previous expansions and novels.

Except there's no retcon whatsoever here. The leader of the Council of Six never had such an authority. Anthonidas didn't arrest Kel'thuzad alone either, and that's much smaller action against people of Dalaran than what Jaina did. And as Tides of War showed even before Jaina became the leader, they didn't get a tie-breaker vote.

No, the Alliance of Lordaeron was dismantled by Arthas Menethil when King Terenas died and Lordaeron was destroyed. Stormwind and Ironforge were part of the Grand Alliance, not the Alliance of Lordaeron. The hint is in the title, there can't be an Alliance of Lordaeron if there is no Lordaeron anymore. Garithos had no authority whatsoever over them.

The Arcane Sanctums of Quel'thalas were not destroyed by Alliance spies, can you tell me which quests claim that? Because I can't remember those questlines at all. As far as I know the Arcane Sanctums were already destroyed when the Ironforge delegation got there, and the Darnassian spies were only observing the effects and results of the Arcane Sanctums.

Also, the Kaldorei and Ironforge did not betray anyone. You cannot betray someone with whom you haven't been allied in a decade because they decided to leave the Alliance as soon as they no longer had need of it.

Please, Metzen confirmed years ago that it's the same Alliance. Arthas had no authority over the Alliance to dismantle anything. As for the starting Blood Elven questline, when you are in diplomatic talks with someone and use them as an opportunity to sabotage them and invade their land, you most certainly did betray them, because diplomatic talks carry certain obligations of behavior.

So you don't call cooking countless innocent civilians alive in their own home an act of genocide. What would you call it then? As for the portal in darnassus. It was in the temple of the moon, thing is you still have to get to it. Or did the fact that blizzard designed the quest to be impossible to save everyone. Not ring a bell i think the objective said something like save 1000 civilians of which i only managed to save 53. Now seeing that the ingame world is more sparcely populated than the lore dictates. There were like thousands more inside teldrassil at the time when sylvanas decided to burn it down because a nelf hurt her feewings. So i ask you again if not genocide then what

Could you, I dunno, read the entire posts? Because I already said what Teldrassil was 2 paragraphs earlier... This forum makes me really sad at times.

[bowlink]

You called teldrassil not an act genocide which it is any way you slice it. I decided to call bull. If you have problem with that. tough

[PelinalWhitestrake]

I doubt Aethas or any of the other Kirin Tor bootkissers do. But those who want justice most certainly will be. Especially since Lor’themar has been trying to tongue Jaina’s ass all patch. Sylvanas is pretty much their only hope.

They are a MAGES GUILD, mages from any race involving in petty mortal affairs is already stupid, Plus Jaina Left the kirin tor in legion.

Aethas probably gave rommath the finger and left the sunreavers when the war started.
Do people EVER play Elder Scrolls or D&D to learn 1 or 2 things about Associations taking parts in petty wars is a bad idea?

[Mehrunes]

You called teldrassil not an act genocide which it is any way you slice it. I decided to call bull. If you have problem with that. tough

For god's sake, I explicitly explained why it's not an act of genocide in the same goddamn paragraph in which I said what it is. Again, try to read said paragraph, because your meaningless and blatantly wrong remarks were already addressed in advance.

[Aucald]

This thread needs to settle down - discuss the actual topic at hand as opposed to unrelated tangents, and remember to be civil when making your arguments.

[Kithelle]

The Horde supports its genocidal tyrants until it's time to wash hands with them when reckoning comes.

Pretty much this....will support this murderous ghoul who cares about no one until it's time to be rid of her.

[Aeula]

They are a MAGES GUILD, mages from any race involving in petty mortal affairs is already stupid, Plus Jaina Left the kirin tor in legion.

Aethas probably gave rommath the finger and left the sunreavers when the war started.
Do people EVER play Elder Scrolls or D&D to learn 1 or 2 things about Associations taking parts in petty wars is a bad idea?

The Kirin Tor took part in the war last time it was on. Aethas went crawling back to them with one of his people's most prized artifacts and part of their legacy.

Aethas is a traitor who should've been strung up by his guts in Legion. I'm glad not all Sunreavers are as pathetic as he is.

[PelinalWhitestrake]

The Kirin Tor took part in the war last time it was on. Aethas went crawling back to them with one of his people's most prized artifacts and part of their legacy.

Aethas is a traitor who should've been strung up by his guts in Legion. I'm glad not all Sunreavers are as pathetic as he is.

Is this WoW or you are RPing as Thalmor Associate? mainly when said knife eared monsters are in fact Ayleid

-First of all: the Sword was lost to the ages and it was acceptable bargain, NO ONE in Silvermoon wanted to see ANYTHING related to the Sunstrider bloodline Ever again.
-Second, MAGES GUILD: the kirin tor took part in the war thanks to Jaina's hotblooded stupidity and dicksucking of Varian, and THIS cost them hard, in manpower and reputation, once Khadgar took over, they went back to neutral status, taking no part at the faction war.
-Third, the Sunreavers were always traitorous backstabbers, ever since TBC when 90% of it betrayed azeroth to join Kael'thas and the legion, and when they even betrayed Aethas to sell Dalaran and the Bell to Garrosh because of promises of MUH POWER.

[Combatbutler]

Is this WoW or you are RPing as Thalmor Associate? mainly when said knife eared monsters are in fact Ayleid

-First of all: the Sword was lost to the ages and it was acceptable bargain, NO ONE in Silvermoon wanted to see ANYTHING related to the Sunstrider bloodline Ever again.
-Second, MAGES GUILD: the kirin tor took part in the war thanks to Jaina's hotblooded stupidity and dicksucking of Varian, and THIS cost them hard, in manpower and reputation, once Khadgar took over, they went back to neutral status, taking no part at the faction war.
-Third, the Sunreavers were always traitorous backstabbers, ever since TBC when 90% of it betrayed azeroth to join Kael'thas and the legion, and when they even betrayed Aethas to sell Dalaran and the Bell to Garrosh because of promises of MUH POWER.

Wow this isn't even worth correcting. Reread the lore please.

[Aeula]

Is this WoW or you are RPing as Thalmor Associate? mainly when said knife eared monsters are in fact Ayleid

-First of all: the Sword was lost to the ages and it was acceptable bargain, NO ONE in Silvermoon wanted to see ANYTHING related to the Sunstrider bloodline Ever again.
-Second, MAGES GUILD: the kirin tor took part in the war thanks to Jaina's hotblooded stupidity and dicksucking of Varian, and THIS cost them hard, in manpower and reputation, once Khadgar took over, they went back to neutral status, taking no part at the faction war.
-Third, the Sunreavers were always traitorous backstabbers, ever since TBC when 90% of it betrayed azeroth to join Kael'thas and the legion, and when they even betrayed Aethas to sell Dalaran and the Bell to Garrosh because of promises of MUH POWER.

This isn't Elder Scrolls. Please read up on Warcraft lore and take your nose out of the songs of Pelinal.

[PelinalWhitestrake]

This isn't Elder Scrolls. Please read up on Warcraft lore and take your nose out of the songs of Pelinal.

i read it enough to CRINGE at every single Retcon made by Afrasabi, Kosak and now danuser over the years to justify your bullshit about "betrayal"

I still remember very well the Shitshows caused by TBC lore retcons.

[eurojust]

Teldrassil wasn't a case of genocide (seriously people, UN - the author of the definition of genocide - has publicly available material explaining that definition in detail, there's no excuse for misusing the term), because the Night Elves weren't targetted over their race, nationality, ethnicity or religion. They were targetted over their political affiliation with the Alliance and political grounds have been deliberately left out of the definition of genocide. Teldrassil was mass murder.

Why do you pretend to know what is a genocide:
"Genocide. Genocide is intentional action to destroy a group of people (usually defined as an ethnic, national, racial, or religious group) in whole or in part."
Nobody cares at that point why you did that. The whole goal of that war was to remove the Night Elves from their homeland simply by killing them. So it's a genocide. Hence why they Horde made no prisoners, blighted Darkshore, etc.
Even WoW writers used that word.

[MikeBogina]

Why wouldn't the members of the Horde support Sylvanas? During Legion, the Alliance attacked the Horde and afterwards begged for peace. Sylvanas is putting an end to the faction conflict by separating the Horde and Alliance and building up the strength of the Horde by bringing in more allies.

Baine killed Horde members to free a dead guy and send him to the enemy, he's consistently shown that he's a traitor and puts the alliance first before his own people. The Sunreavers are a group of innocent Blood Elves that Jaina called for the Purge of. If you saw your friends die by her hands(someone who they called their leader) and then Baine who kills members of his faction aswell to aid Jaina, and Sylvanas sentences him to death... then yeah, you'd most likely be fully in support of Sylvanas.

The irony is that the Sunreavers were the Blood Elves who distanced themselves the most from the Horde and wanted to be pro neutral, if not even more pro Alliance... and now they're probably the ones who hate the Alliance the most now. The High Elves/Blood Elves have just had a history of being fucked over by humans and the narrative of the story seems to just not care about it, cause they're not humans.

[mickybrighteyes]

Like sylvanas and possie showed up at teldrassil uninvited. and thenshe decided to burn down a tree full of i don't know many innocent night elf civilians. Of which my character only managed to save 53.

Boohoo. acting like it's the first atrocity we see in the lore. Doesn't change the fact that the story has already done exactly as a previous poster 'wished' already


hold on, lets look back at that 'wish':

Sometimes I wonder what it would be like if Alliance did that now and then just to give them a taste of their own medicine. "Oh, that wasn't Really the Alliance, you see. it was Tyrande's leading it at the time. Now that Genn has the ball, I'm sure it'll be better for you guys.'

note that THAT was the medicine that founded every horde nation now except for the tauren and allied races. Referencing the impossible quest alliance have at teldrassil doesn't wipe the slate clean or erase previous lore just because you've now gotten to see a new sad story.

IMO the alliance should have gone the the full 9 yards and turned Dazar'alor into a funeral pire for Rasta(dead on arrival because talanji exists)khan and the rest of zandalari trolls. Like i said sick of being the good guy.

Because it makes complete sense to engage a new force unrelated to the conflict and visit upon them such atrocities as slaughter and destruction...

That's an even worse outlook than the twirling mustache villain trope we DID get as horde.

[Grazrug]

i read it enough to CRINGE at every single Retcon made by Afrasabi, Kosak and now danuser over the years to justify your bullshit about "betrayal"

I still remember very well the Shitshows caused by TBC lore retcons.

Calling out others on rping elder scrolls stuff when your username is literally the biggest anti elf murderer in tamriel history is hilarious.

- - - Updated - - -

Why wouldn't the members of the Horde support Sylvanas? During Legion, the Alliance attacked the Horde and afterwards begged for peace. Sylvanas is putting an end to the faction conflict by separating the Horde and Alliance and building up the strength of the Horde by bringing in more allies.

Baine killed Horde members to free a dead guy and send him to the enemy, he's consistently shown that he's a traitor and puts the alliance first before his own people. The Sunreavers are a group of innocent Blood Elves that Jaina called for the Purge of. If you saw your friends die by her hands(someone who they called their leader) and then Baine who kills members of his faction aswell to aid Jaina, and Sylvanas sentences him to death... then yeah, you'd most likely be fully in support of Sylvanas.

The irony is that the Sunreavers were the Blood Elves who distanced themselves the most from the Horde and wanted to be pro neutral, if not even more pro Alliance... and now they're probably the ones who hate the Alliance the most now. The High Elves/Blood Elves have just had a history of being fucked over by humans and the narrative of the story seems to just not care about it, cause they're not humans.

This. All of it. If you ain't human or lick their boots like Aethas and Baine did, blizzard doesent care about you.

[Aeula]

i read it enough to CRINGE at every single Retcon made by Afrasabi, Kosak and now danuser over the years to justify your bullshit about "betrayal"

I still remember very well the Shitshows caused by TBC lore retcons.

Yes, the story is shit.

But your interpretation of it is even more out of whack.

[Mehrunes]

Why do you pretend to know what is a genocide:
"Genocide. Genocide is intentional action to destroy a group of people (usually defined as an ethnic, national, racial, or religious group) in whole or in part."
Nobody cares at that point why you did that. The whole goal of that war was to remove the Night Elves from their homeland simply by killing them. So it's a genocide. Hence why they Horde made no prisoners, blighted Darkshore, etc.
Even WoW writers used that word.

Because unlike others I'm actually capable reading the material I mentioned. Here:

The intent is the most difficult element to determine. To constitute genocide, there must be a proven intent on the part of perpetrators to physically destroy a national, ethnical, racial or religious group. Cultural destruction does not suffice, nor does an intention to simply disperse a group. It is this special intent, or dolus specialis, that makes the crime of genocide so unique. In addition, case law has associated intent with the existence of a State or organizational plan or policy, even if the definition of genocide in international law does not include that element.

Importantly, the victims of genocide are deliberately targeted - not randomly – because of their real or perceived membership of one of the four groups protected under the Convention (which excludes political groups, for example). This means that the target of destruction must be the group, as such, and not its members as individuals. Genocide can also be committed against only a part of the group, as long as that part is identifiable (including within a geographically limited area) and “substantial.”

To say that no one cares why you did that is blatantly wrong. Not just in context of genocide, but in general in context of law. That is an important element of intent, which in turn is an important element of criminality of actions. You don't even know the basics here, yet pretend you have the grounds to berate others. Please stop spreading your utter ignorance about this topic, because you made it clear time and time again you don't know what you're talking about.

[eurojust]

Because unlike others I'm actually capable reading the material I mentioned. Here:

To say that no one cares why you did that is blatantly wrong. Not just in context of genocide, but in general in context of law. That is an important element of intent, which in turn is an important element of criminality of actions. You don't even know the basics here, yet pretend you have the grounds to berate others. Please stop spreading your utter ignorance about this topic, because you made it clear time and time again you don't know what you're talking about.

This is excatly what is happening during the War of the Thorns : Night Elves are deliberalely targeted. And please calm yourself a bit.

[Mehrunes]

This is excatly what is happening during the War of the Thorns : Night Elves are deliberalely targeted. And please calm yourself a bit.

And you chose to ignore the "deliberately - nor randomly - because of their real or perceived membership of the four (i.e. racial, national, ethnic or religious) groups protected under the Convention" part of that why, exactly? Because your argument wouldn't work otherwise? That reason doesn't really warrant blatant disregard for UN's explanation of the definition of genocide they themselves wrote. If your line of reasoning was correct, every act of mass murder would be genocide, because everyone belongs to a national, ethnic, racial or religious groups. But they are explicitly not the same and one was differentiated from the other for a reason. Which means merely belonging to those groups isn't enough. It must be the actual reason why they were targeted. Which follows directly from the definition in accordance with how legalese is read.

Unless you're able to provide sources that the deliberate targeting of Night Elves in the War of Thorns happened over their race, nationality, ethnicity or religion instead of their political affiliation with the Alliance. In which case, please do share your findings.

[eurojust]

And you chose to ignore the "deliberately - nor randomly - because of their real or perceived membership of the four (i.e. racial, national, ethnic or religious) groups protected under the Convention" part of that why, exactly? Because your argument wouldn't work otherwise? That reason doesn't really warrant blatant disregard for UN's explanation of the definition of genocide they themselves wrote.

Yes this is exactly the case. Night Elves are targeted because they belong to the Night Elf race. The fact that the reason of this genocide is because this group is part of the Alliance doesn't change anything. It's just the underlying motivation which lead to the genocide.
According to your twisted logic the Horde could exterminate every race of the Alliance it wouldn't be a genocide because "dude they are part of the Alliance, that's why we killed them".