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  1. #461
    Merely a Setback cubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by muto View Post
    Not referring to the targeting call, but the pass interference call that cost Clemson a touchdown, which would have made the game a little closer. There were also a couple calls that got reversed because they called them incorrectly drawing the length of the game out, like the dropped catch by the Clemson RB.

    However targeting is still a little sketchy sometimes players can’t help leading with their helmet because of momentum.
    Lol you think they were called incorrectly, but a team of reffing professionals disagreed - and we're supposed to go with the king of no-links rather than a seasoned team of referees? Lol. And no one else professionally is talking about those calls. Feel free to link me serious people that are saying bad game because of the reffing.
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  2. #462
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    And I disagree. They missed a couple of PI calls (because that never happens in football games ), decided to be generous with holding calls on both sides (which is precisely how it's supposed to work). The refs did a fantastic job on both sides. Tough calls where needed and moved decisively all around. I'm not sure why you didn't like "the refs" and I'm certain them coming from the Pac-12 has nothing to do with the calls themselves.

    Not sure where any of your completely illegitimate animosity is coming from, actually. Great game, good reffing. Fantastic finish to a great season.
    I said that this would be a poorly officiated game before they even played the semifinals when I heard that they had a P12 crew working the game. P12 refs are renowned for being bad not just by fans of the conference, but fans from other conferences.

    Again, even a bunch of people who literally had no dog in the fight because they don't follow college ball commented on how bad the refs where between the complete lack of calls against the line, missed targeting calls, inconsistent PI flags (they wouldn't call anything one drive and then they'd call every single PI the next), and not calling a constituent game in the secondary.

    Plus that was a God-awful PI call. It's one thing to miss a call or throw a flag when there wasn't one, it's something else to throw a flag against the wrong team. It absolutely killed any spark Clemson had right there. Their DBs couldn't guard the LSU wrs, Lawrence was overthrowing badly on throws to wide open guys he normally makes in his sleep, and their line couldn't get pressure while LSU could (which is why I said the lack of holding hurt Clemson more, LSUs dline was more athletic and able to get pressure despite the lack of holding calls). They needed big plays like that, and going from a td to a 1 and 25 is a brutal momentum swing, especially when you're already playing from behind.

  3. #463
    Quote Originally Posted by Brubear View Post
    I said that this would be a poorly officiated game before they even played the semifinals when I heard that they had a P12 crew working the game. P12 refs are renowned for being bad not just by fans of the conference, but fans from other conferences.
    It's impossible for P12 officiating to be worse then the Big Ten because the Big Ten still employs John O'Neil.

  4. #464
    Merely a Setback cubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tech614 View Post
    Clemson doesn't pass the ball enough for Trevor to win the Heisman. You can be almost certain there will be at minimum 3 QBs with way better stats then him regardless of actual talent.
    Interesting - and good point. Not even close to the QB's that made the cut this year.
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  5. #465
    Quote Originally Posted by Tech614 View Post
    It's impossible for P12 officiating to be worse then the Big Ten because the Big Ten still employs John O'Neil.
    You should watch more P12 games. Just go read threads in the CFB reddit when they announced that it would be a P12 crew and you'll see one of the few things that can unite college football fans, the fact that P12 refs are the worst. Even B10 fans were agreeing.

  6. #466
    Quote Originally Posted by Brubear View Post
    You should watch more P12 games. Just go read threads in the CFB reddit when they announced that it would be a P12 crew and you'll see one of the few things that can unite college football fans, the fact that P12 refs are the worst. Even B10 fans were agreeing.
    No actual B1G fan would agree to that when literally fans of every university want John O'Neil fired because he has screwed everyone at one point or another. Like the dude must have dirt on Jim Delaney to still be employed, and wouldn't even hack it in high school. If you want examples of his hijinks just this season you can look at the PSU-Iowa and Michigan-ND games where he tried his best to make sure Iowa and ND won but somehow still lost. He literally marched ND down the field for a TD which led to Michigan fans throwing towels at the refs lmfao. In the Iowa Penn State game he overturned a call by saying "it was a judgment call" which made sense to none of the broadcasters or the ref in the booth either.
    Last edited by Tech614; 2020-01-14 at 06:36 AM.

  7. #467
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brubear View Post
    I said that this would be a poorly officiated game before they even played the semifinals when I heard that they had a P12 crew working the game. P12 refs are renowned for being bad not just by fans of the conference, but fans from other conferences.

    Again, even a bunch of people who literally had no dog in the fight because they don't follow college ball commented on how bad the refs where between the complete lack of calls against the line, missed targeting calls, inconsistent PI flags (they wouldn't call anything one drive and then they'd call every single PI the next), and not calling a constituent game in the secondary.

    Plus that was a God-awful PI call. It's one thing to miss a call or throw a flag when there wasn't one, it's something else to throw a flag against the wrong team. It absolutely killed any spark Clemson had right there.
    Can you link those people claiming such? I get the PI call wasn't good but they missed a PI call that would have favored LSU, and in my experience that's about par for the course. Has there ever been a football game with perfect calls? Nope. Know why - most of the close ones are subjective.

    I would like to see those links to people claiming bad reffing post-game.


    Quote Originally Posted by Brubear View Post
    Their DBs couldn't guard the LSU wrs, Lawrence was overthrowing badly on throws to wide open guys he normally makes in his sleep, and their line couldn't get pressure while LSU could (which is why I said the lack of holding hurt Clemson more, LSUs dline was more athletic and able to get pressure despite the lack of holding calls). They needed big plays like that, and going from a td to a 1 and 25 is a brutal momentum swing, especially when you're already playing from behind.
    Sure, if it had gone the other way, of course it would have been a momentum swing. But Clemson just got outplayed. Period. LSU adapted quickly while Clemson struggled to keep their offense on the field. In the end Burrow had all the time in the world to make those last plays that clinched the win. Clemson scored only one touchdown in almost 40:00 of game time. That didn't happen because of anything other then them losing to a better team.

    Blaming the refs for a bad game, when it was in fact a phenomenal game, is again just silly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brubear View Post
    You should watch more P12 games. Just go read threads in the CFB reddit when they announced that it would be a P12 crew and you'll see one of the few things that can unite college football fans, the fact that P12 refs are the worst. Even B10 fans were agreeing.
    Can you link something other than reddit for these claims? Personal bias is adorable but citing social media as a source to bolster your opinion is just silly. I know for a fact that you know what you're talking about when it comes to college football, some of your stuff is not only purely educational for me but a real eye opener.

    But this Pac-12 refs suck thing is beneath you.
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  8. #468
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    I mean, who the fuck cares Muto? You just have your little ref agenda and it's pathetic. Can you even link the guy you mentioned doing what you're claiming? /sad

    The game was great - a real shoot out opening set of drives, and then the better team pulled away. Good adjustments in the second half, Clemson just couldn't keep the offense going. Trevor seemed to be off in the second half, not sure why - that kid is going to take the Heisman next year.
    For someone who made it clear you were rooting against Clemson, it's rather funny that you're accusing other people of having an agenda, mate.

    Here's just a sample of why they are bad.

    https://247sports.com/Article/Nation...yte-141871834/

    https://mynorthwest.com/25738/herbst...o-officiating/

    https://www.reddit.com/r/CFB/comment...fficiating_is/

    https://www.barstoolbets.com/blogs/1...efs-are-broken

    You can follow the tag on Twitter https://twitter.com/search?q=pac+12+...Ctwgr%5Esearch

    https://www.statepress.com/article/2...g-incompetence

    https://www.latimes.com/sports/story...n-missed-calls
    This article is notable because of Pieira even saying that across the country people complain about Pac 12 refs the most.

    Here's an article about this crew specifically because of their history of bad calls, including two who had been downgrading this season.

    https://www.cbssports.com/college-fo...ly-criticized/

  9. #469
    Merely a Setback cubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brubear View Post
    For someone who made it clear you were rooting against Clemson, it's rather funny that you're accusing other people of having an agenda, mate.
    But my "agenda" is about the game overall - not who won or lost. Sure I was rooting for LSU, but the game was great, and not spoiled one bit by reffing. I would respectfully argue that you have an agenda outside whomever won or lost, and it's...interesting.

    A close game decided by one bad momentum crushing call, sure, we could have that conversation. But Clemson just lost, and while there might have been some close and missed calls, that always happens in college football.

    I would posit to you that this might have been one of the best officiated games in recent memory.


    Gonna go line-by-line, but I want to say up front, thank you for links - I can't tell you how many people do not do this at all. We're all pointing at you @muto.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brubear View Post
    Here's just a sample of why they are bad.

    https://247sports.com/Article/Nation...yte-141871834/

    https://mynorthwest.com/25738/herbst...o-officiating/

    https://www.reddit.com/r/CFB/comment...fficiating_is/

    https://www.barstoolbets.com/blogs/1...efs-are-broken

    You can follow the tag on Twitter https://twitter.com/search?q=pac+12+...Ctwgr%5Esearch

    https://www.statepress.com/article/2...g-incompetence

    https://www.latimes.com/sports/story...n-missed-calls
    This article is notable because of Pieira even saying that across the country people complain about Pac 12 refs the most.

    Here's an article about this crew specifically because of their history of bad calls, including two who had been downgrading this season.

    https://www.cbssports.com/college-fo...ly-criticized/
    Ok, not going to go line-by-line. These are for the most part good links - which makes them phenomenal for this forum, as most people don't even bother to back up their claims (ahem Muto).

    Let me ask you a question - if I put some effort into research, could I find articles like this about all the conference reffing teams? The Big10 apparently has someone worse?
    Last edited by cubby; 2020-01-14 at 06:50 AM.
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  10. #470
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    Can you link those people claiming such? I get the PI call wasn't good but they missed a PI call that would have favored LSU, and in my experience that's about par for the course. Has there ever been a football game with perfect calls? Nope. Know why - most of the close ones are subjective.

    I would like to see those links to people claiming bad reffing post-game.




    Sure, if it had gone the other way, of course it would have been a momentum swing. But Clemson just got outplayed. Period. LSU adapted quickly while Clemson struggled to keep their offense on the field. In the end Burrow had all the time in the world to make those last plays that clinched the win. Clemson scored only one touchdown in almost 40:00 of game time. That didn't happen because of anything other then them losing to a better team.

    Blaming the refs for a bad game, when it was in fact a phenomenal game, is again just silly.

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    Can you link something other than reddit for these claims? Personal bias is adorable but citing social media as a source to bolster your opinion is just silly. I know for a fact that you know what you're talking about when it comes to college football, some of your stuff is not only purely educational for me but a real eye opener.

    But this Pac-12 refs suck thing is beneath you.
    Again, I have yet to say that the game was decided by the refs. The only reason I think that LSU benefited more from the bad officiating than Clemson is because a) their dline was better so they were able to still get pressure despite being held, b) their receivers matched up better against Clemson's corners so they still made plays despite missed PI, and c) that OPI that took away the touchdown was an absolute back breaker, and was the final nail in the coffin. I think that even if the game was called even LSU still would have come out on top. Clemson couldn't get pressure and spent the last half trying to do so with a 3-man rush which never works in your favor when you are already struggling against the pass, Clemson had really bad tackling technique and a lot of blown coverage's, and Lawrence was just not himself, none of which are the refs fault. But I also don't think it was a well officiated game.

    The people I was talking about who made comments during/after the game where the people I was watching it with, so I don't know how I'd get links to their comments (maybe you're confusing some of my posts with muto's?). I brought up the CFB reddit to show that this is something people have been commenting on since before the CFP even started this year (I haven't checked in in a few weeks so no idea what was said on it today). But see my post with a host of links, to show why I say the P12 refs are bad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    But my "agenda" is about the game overall - not who won or lost. Sure I was rooting for LSU, but the game was great, and not spoiled one bit by reffing. I would respectfully argue that you have an agenda outside whomever won or lost, and it's...interesting.

    A close game decided by one bad momentum crushing call, sure, we could have that conversation. But Clemson just lost, and while there might have been some close and missed calls, that always happens in college football.

    I would posit to you that this might have been one of the best officiated games in recent memory.


    Gonna go line-by-line, but I want to say up front, thank you for links - I can't tell you how many people do not do this at all. We're all pointing at you @muto.



    Ok, not going to go line-by-line. These are for the most part good links - which makes them phenomenal for this forum, as most people don't even bother.

    Let me ask you a question - if I put some effort into research, could I find articles like this about all the conference reffing teams? The Big10 apparently has someone worse?
    You might be able to find some, but I don't think you'd be able to find quite the same breadth. They've had a very high amount of major controversies, multiple refs downgraded, had the head of officiating calling the booth during a game from his house to change a call on the field and even brought Pereira himself as a consultant not too long ago because of how bad things were. Pereira himself even comments on how universally derided P12 refs are across the country. The B10 might have one guy that's really bad, but the P12 has a whole roster of 'em.

  11. #471
    Merely a Setback cubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brubear View Post
    Again, I have yet to say that the game was decided by the refs.
    True.


    Quote Originally Posted by Brubear View Post
    The only reason I think that LSU benefited more from the bad officiating than Clemson is because a) their dline was better so they were able to still get pressure despite being held, b) their receivers matched up better against Clemson's corners so they still made plays despite missed PI, and c) that OPI that took away the touchdown was an absolute back breaker, and was the final nail in the coffin. I think that even if the game was called even LSU still would have come out on top. Clemson couldn't get pressure and spent the last half trying to do so with a 3-man rush which never works in your favor when you are already struggling against the pass, Clemson had really bad tackling technique and a lot of blown coverage's, and Lawrence was just not himself, none of which are the refs fault. But I also don't think it was a well officiated game.
    Then where was the bad officiating? It sounds like a couple of close/bad calls and some liberal no-calls on holding for both sides. What else?


    Quote Originally Posted by Brubear View Post
    The people I was talking about who made comments during/after the game where the people I was watching it with, so I don't know how I'd get links to their comments (maybe you're confusing some of my posts with muto's?). I brought up the CFB reddit to show that this is something people have been commenting on since before the CFP even started this year (I haven't checked in in a few weeks so no idea what was said on it today). But see my post with a host of links, to show why I say the P12 refs are bad.
    Totally fair point. Yes I want links to their comments right now! Record and post! J/k - obviously. No, I wasn't confusing your posts with the Muto - that would be a severe insult to you. Interesting point re reddit.
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  12. #472
    Also I can't speak to what the broadcasters said during the game because the buddy whose house I watch it at uses a Canadian broadcast specifically so he doesn't have to hear the normal broadcasters during NFL games, so we actually watched it without commentary. Was nice.

  13. #473
    Merely a Setback cubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brubear View Post
    You might be able to find some, but I don't think you'd be able to find quite the same breadth. They've had a very high amount of major controversies, multiple refs downgraded, had the head of officiating calling the booth during a game from his house to change a call on the field and even brought Pereira himself as a consultant not too long ago because of how bad things were. Pereira himself even comments on how universally derided P12 refs are across the country. The B10 might have one guy that's really bad, but the P12 has a whole roster of 'em.
    Here's an interesting article you might want to consider, making the very valid point that P12 was bad last year, but they corrected it.

    https://www.mercurynews.com/2019/10/...he-power-five/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brubear View Post
    Also I can't speak to what the broadcasters said during the game because the buddy whose house I watch it at uses a Canadian broadcast specifically so he doesn't have to hear the normal broadcasters during NFL games, so we actually watched it without commentary. Was nice.
    That would have been an interesting way to watch it. I like most of the commentary because it adds some flavor to the game - but it also adds some humor, if you know what I mean.
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  14. #474
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    True.




    Then where was the bad officiating? It sounds like a couple of close/bad calls and some liberal no-calls on holding for both sides. What else?




    Totally fair point. Yes I want links to their comments right now! Record and post! J/k - obviously. No, I wasn't confusing your posts with the Muto - that would be a severe insult to you. Interesting point re reddit.
    I'd have to rewatch the game to call out more specific instances than a lot of the ones I mentioned, but this was one of the few games where almost every time I saw a WR or QB complaining about holding or a DB complaining about a OPI that they had a legitimate complaint.

    The letting the oline just play is something I'm not a fan of even if they do it evenly as it's something I watch for (I learned football by playing oline in high school), and it always seems to favor the team who has the momentum/size advantage on the line of scrimmage.

    They missed a fair amount of big penalties which stood out to me (missed targeting, bad OPI on the td, lineman downfield for a couple.of key passes for LSU, some block in the back/borderline unsportsmanlike shoves on some big runs for both teams, missed out of bounds on a big LSU run), and like I said they called the secondary inconsistently, with a drive resulting in multiple calls only to see the same calls missed on the following few drives, and then they get called again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    Here's an interesting article you might want to consider, making the very valid point that P12 was bad last year, but they corrected it.

    https://www.mercurynews.com/2019/10/...he-power-five/

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    That would have been an interesting way to watch it. I like most of the commentary because it adds some flavor to the game - but it also adds some humor, if you know what I mean.
    I'm not sure if your link is taking me to a different article or something or I missed the part you're referring to, but that one just seems to talk about controversies in other conferences.

    The P12 has taken some public steps to try and fix their issue, but this is the second time this decade they've done so (first was when they brought in Peireira, second was this year after the numerous controversies to start the season). It's something I've almost never seen P12 fans argue over not only with each other, but also with SEC, B12, and ACC fans. The B10 is still divided, but after a few P12 after dark games they usually come around.

  15. #475
    The Insane draynay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    I was rooting for LSU as well - only because they were playing Clemson. Man the Tigers were just phenomenal the entire year. Burrow was insane in the CFP final.
    Against 7 top 10 opponents he threw for 2783 yards, 27 TD 2 INT
    /s

  16. #476
    @cubby

    Why do I need to give you links? Did you not watch the game?

    They literally had a lifetime college football/nfl referee on call saying a lot of the calls were bad. Like...

  17. #477
    Merely a Setback cubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by muto View Post
    @cubby

    Why do I need to give you links? Did you not watch the game?

    They literally had a lifetime college football/nfl referee on call saying a lot of the calls were bad. Like...
    I did, they did in fact NOT have that happen. Why would you lie about something as trivial as this?
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  18. #478
    Then you clearly didn’t watch the game,

  19. #479
    Banned Lilithvia's Avatar
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    Would like to mention that we never got game scores posted @Crissi;

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    Quote Originally Posted by muto View Post
    Then you clearly didn’t watch the game,
    I also just watched a full rebroadcast of the live game; they had nothing of the sort.

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