Did Garrosh ever do anything wrong?

[Aucald]

Orgrimm was waging a genocidal war, his goal was not just conquest but eradication. Something which isn't addressed at all, inheriting a war and how you wage said war is quite different.

We don't really know if Orgrim would've prosecuted genocide against Humanity or not - based on his personality I'm more inclined to say not. Unlike Blackhand it's more likely he would've opted to break Humanity's ability to fight the Horde and pushed them out of whatever lands the Horde wished to claim, but would not have chased them beyond that. Of course, given the Horde's general corruption by the demons this may not have been within his ability to choose, either. Orgrim was not himself corrupted by Mannoroth's blood, and had also become aware that the Horde's crusade was based on a number of falsehoods. But his control over the corrupted Horde was not absolute, either.

Yeah he returned them to their same barbaric ways, their shamanistic society was already rotten, he did not make changes that were necessary. Orcish culture is to put it bluntly primitive and most of it is not worthy to be preserved, if they intend to build a lasting civilization, orcs have potential if only they would drop most of their current culture.

This sounds like a judgement made from your own personal reference point and not one internal to the narrative itself - you're judging Orcish culture based on real-world human norms. In that sense I'd agree with you, it's a very bad culture and replete with a number of problem elements. But you're also judging Thrall by a pretty unfair standard that could never realistically be met by the Horde in their own context. I've already said that the Horde needed to acclimate to a world that wasn't as savage as their homeworld of Draenor, but I don't hold them to the same standards as I do our own society in the real world.

That does not make them scholars or anything related to that, they are more spiritual guides and those to be quite blunt, tend to hold societies back more than they advance them. Which is reinforced by kil'jaeden easily manipulating their holy figure.

Where do you think scholars came from historically? The scholastic concept was born out of figures like the shaman and the priesthoods of various mythologies. The Legion is well known for corrupting societies even more refined and evolved than the Orcs, as well, I mean the Draenei themselves were deceived and corrupted easily by Sargeras almost en masse - that's not a fair comparison at all, and Kil'jaeden was even able to manipulate the Orcs by masquerading as the very real spirits of their ancestors. And some Orcs still resisted his words despite this, which I don't put under the heading of "easy" at all.

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Go on, orc apologism is never too much

I don't think I'm apologizing for the Orcs at all - considering I've already said their culture has issues and hasn't properly acclimated to a world where they don't have to be defined by conflict. Orcish culture still bears responsibility for giving rise to personalities like Garrosh and Grom to begin with - they don't define all Orcs, but they're still a product of the problems of Orcish culture to begin with.

[tromage2]

He didn't get Zaela pregnant that's what he did wrong.

If blizzard is smart then they retcon this that a Hellscream offspring is been hidden away by the dragonmaw clan.
Warcraft need iconic bloodlines to stay alive and the Hellscream bloodline is to important in Warcraft/Horde history to just die out.

[naeblis495]

I'm talking about cataclysm Garrosh, not MOP Garrosh.

cata garrosh still used the forsaken as shields for his korkron because he didn't liked them and kidnapded magnataur( i think? might be some other northrend creature) kid's to force the parents to fight for him .

[matrix123mko]

If blizzard is smart then they retcon this that a Hellscream offspring is been hidden away by the dragonmaw clan.
Warcraft need iconic bloodlines to stay alive and the Hellscream bloodline is to important in Warcraft/Horde history to just die out.

It could be nice if there was Garrosh's son with introduction similiar to Wrathion's.

Also, can we recreate Sunstrider Dynasty?

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cata garrosh still used the forsaken as shields for his korkron because he didn't liked them and kinpadded magnataur( i think?) kid's to force the parents to fight for him .

And killed these kids.

[naeblis495]

forgot that part , damn .

[Ielenia]

Org turned into a city with actual walls of metal and stone as opposed to a collection of huts. Draenor, au at least, wound up unified for the most part instead of destroyed entirely. The vale is the only example of this list that is entirely negative with no pros.

The only reason it didn't end up "destroyed entirely" was because we (i.e. the Alliance and Horde) intervened, since they eventually fell to the demons' corruption, anyways.

[Jastall]

Where did you get all that information from though? I feel like if this kind of stuff was conveyed correctly in game, ie through like the opening cataclysm patch cinematic etc. People would have bought into garrosh a lot more than they did. He would have actually garnered sympathy for trying to protect his race. As it is, with his in game portrayal he just comes off as a murderous asshole lol.

Not to mention Durotar being barren makes no sense. It's bordered on one side by the Southfury river and on the other by the friggin ocean. Even if the land itself is inhospitable, Orcs know husbandry and surely aren't too dumb to fish. They have an entire stretch of coast all to themselves, if you manage to starve in those conditions you just deserve it. Lumber is also puzzling as a problem considering Orgrimmar has a direct zeppelin line to a dense jungle, several allies who live in woods and forests, a nearby forest that just became accessible, and worse comes to worst the goblins at Ratchet are sympathetic to the Horde and will sell anything for the right price.

And yeah, the resource problem wasn't even covered in-game. Garrosh's short story, the Glory short and the Shattering talked about it, but all we saw in the actual game was a newly renovated Orgrimmar (now with 130% more redundant spikes) so it was close to impossible to take these problems seriously unless you dug deep in the logistics aspects of the lore, which Blizzard barely cared about then and certainly no longer cares about now.

[Syegfryed]

If blizzard is smart then they retcon this that a Hellscream offspring is been hidden away by the dragonmaw clan.
Warcraft need iconic bloodlines to stay alive and the Hellscream bloodline is to important in Warcraft/Horde history to just die out.

A warsong and a dragonmaw child is like my wet dream

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The only reason it didn't end up "destroyed entirely" was because we (i.e. the Alliance and Horde) intervened, since they eventually fell to the demons' corruption, anyways.

it felt because "we" were dumb enough to free gul'dan

[Kantoro]

Troll post is troll.

Infracted.

[MatthiasVonTzeskagrad]

I'm talking about cataclysm Garrosh, not MOP Garrosh.

Well, Forsaken still have a point. And given they were the most successful of all Hordies during Garrosh's rule, they had all the right on the world to be mad at him.
In fact, it still bugs me how there is no single mention of forsaken going against Garrosh, besides manipulating or ignoring his orders, until SoO. You'd think they should have get rid of all the Kor'kron troops first.

[Syegfryed]

Not to mention Durotar being barren makes no sense. It's bordered on one side by the Southfury river and on the other by the friggin ocean. Even if the land itself is inhospitable, Orcs know husbandry and surely aren't too dumb to fish. They have an entire stretch of coast all to themselves, if you manage to starve in those conditions you just deserve it. Lumber is also puzzling as a problem considering Orgrimmar has a direct zeppelin line to a dense jungle, several allies who live in woods and forests, a nearby forest that just became accessible, and worse comes to worst the goblins at Ratchet are sympathetic to the Horde and will sell anything for the right price.

Maybe kalindor coast was not so abundant on fish, and it was not enough to fill the entire orgrimmar population, we need to remember not only orcs lived there, and they have a huge ever growing population, constant being attacked by the enemy and supplies lines being attacked

They needed at time, immediate solutions, and with time cover the problems with something permanent

What i learn studying ecology using agroforestry is that production of lumber, for things like firing, to be effective need to be close to those who would buy/need, maybe that zeppelin was not rly enough to delivered everything they need, the trip would not be safe for a cargo etc

they even tried to negotiate with stormwind wood for copper, in that HQ showing that they rly needed it and was no rly easy to get.

And like i said, fast solution before something permanent, and Ashenvale had everything from lumber to food, in one place, close, with an already established horde base from his own clan

[Jastall]

Maybe kalindor coast was not so abundant on fish, and it was not enough to fill the entire orgrimmar population, we need to remember not only orcs lived there, and they have a huge ever growing population, constant being attacked by the enemy and supplies lines being attacked

They needed at time, immediate solutions, and with time cover the problems with something permanent

What i learn studying ecology using agroforestry is that production of lumber, for things like firing, to be effective need to be close to those who would buy/need, maybe that zeppelin was not rly enough to delivered everything they need, the trip would not be safe for a cargo etc

they even tried to negotiate with stormwind wood for copper, in that HQ showing that they rly needed it and was no rly easy to get.

And like i said, fast solution before something permanent, and Ashenvale had everything from lumber to food, in one place, close, with an already established horde base from his own clan

It doesn't need to be teeming with millions of fish, logically there can't possibly be more than a couple tens of thousands of Orcs even accounting for the extras brought in from Outland and the remnants of the Black Horde. Between fishing, what farms there are in Durotar, supplies that can be brought in from allies, and the plentiful game found in the Barrens, the Orcs shouldn't have any problem feeding themselves, their surroundings are hardly less hospitable than Dun Morogh for example and the Dwarves and Gnomes have no chronicled food problems.

The thing with lumber is that the game shows the Orcs have access to tons of it, being that they just rebuilt Orgrimmar. So either they were entirely wasteful with their supply which is hardly anyone else's fault, or the shortage is a plot device with no in-universe sense that only serves to push the conflict. Plus firewood hardly needs to be high quality.

The problem is that Blizzard does not give a single fuck about logistics 99% of the time, so this one time that they try to push a story with logistics in mind rings completely hollow given that the Horde is otherwise capable of sending and supplying entire armies across the world like it was nothing (even to desolate planets) or building a skyscraper-sized base in a tundra the moment they arrive but then we're supposed to believe they can't find food or lumber to save their lives on the homefront and that's a huge problem.

[Rafoel]

Back in MoP I thought Garrosh was just stupid and was the reason of his own downfall. His enemy was Alliance, yet he kept antagonizing and often outright attacking other horde races.

Voljin doesn't agree with my policies? Well, lets assasinate him. Put other trolls in concentration camps by the way.

Blood Elves? They are graceful and skinny, not like true warriors, not like orcs. Let's sidetrack them and use them as fodder.

Pandaren? Lul stupid carebears. The pandas in Pandaria seem to oppose me, so I guess Horde's pandaren are my enemies as well (its not like horde didn't fight blackrock ORCS for years by that time...)

Tauren? I wouldn't have problems with tauren, but appearently they have problem with me after I killed Cairne, so fuck them.

Yes, this is how I thought... but Sylvanas proved me wrong. Garrosh was right all along. The so called "members" of the Horde are too cowardly to ever accept a leader that wants to destroy their enemies once and for all. Even when Warchief's wrath is only directed at the Alliance, Horde's "leaders" scheme and plot to undermine his efforts, and prefer to side with the enemy instead.


For real though. Horde right now looks like this D&D party where people are supposed to work towards common goal, but their very reasons for even participating differ so much that its impossible to create a single motivation for them to work together. GM can try as he can to shoehorn them into the plot, but somebody is always trying to sidetrack, somebody is always protesting, somebody is always delaying, and they irritate each other so much that half of them is seriously wondering why aren't they joining their "enemy" instead, because from roleplay perspective their characters certainly WOULD. Pro tip - they won't, because GM forbids so. And similarly the Horde only sticks together for gameplay reasons, Garrosh or not.

[Syegfryed]

It doesn't need to be teeming with millions of fish, logically there can't possibly be more than a couple tens of thousands of Orcs even accounting for the extras brought in from Outland and the remnants of the Black Horde. Between fishing, what farms there are in Durotar, supplies that can be brought in from allies, and the plentiful game found in the Barrens, the Orcs shouldn't have any problem feeding themselves, their surroundings are hardly less hospitable than Dun Morogh for example and the Dwarves and Gnomes have no chronicled food problems.

If they show to have food problem then its canon, we need to figure out why, population and the "impossibility" to get enough is what come up in mind

It is said they did bought supplies from allies, Garrosh shortstory said that, but its too much expensive, and their line of supplies is attacked by the alliance who made things worse.

Dun morogh is another climate, its other problem and resolved with just another variety of things to grow, farms in durotar are almost completly out of question, tht until cataclysm had not even water either.

hunt outside ashenvale was not viable, if you don't like scorpions and other nasty things, they did buy but again, expensive and they could not afford.

To fish properly for a huge popultion with need special ships, with special techniques

The thing with lumber is that the game shows the Orcs have access to tons of it, being that they just rebuilt Orgrimmar. So either they were entirely wasteful with their supply which is hardly anyone else's fault, or the shortage is a plot device with no in-universe sense that only serves to push the conflict. Plus firewood hardly needs to be high quality.

but he rebuild with iron and steel, not from wood...

What access? they could only tke from azshara and ashenvale, they could not take everything from mulgore or the barrens, its a savannah not rly a forest or a jungle, taking from other places is even hard and expensive, from the other continent is even worse, and like i said, at that time, they need imediate solutions so after that they could work on permanent ones.

The problem is that Blizzard does not give a single fuck about logistics 99% of the time

Sure, but things like this are not rly completely out of question, and we could make some sense of it.

[Ielenia]

it felt because "we" were dumb enough to free gul'dan

Perhaps.

But then again, I doubt the Legion would just go "Gul'dan failed. Oh well, no reason to try again" and leave the orcs alone.

[PelinalWhitestrake]

Cataclysm Garrosh could had been the best Warboss in horde history, Learning from his fathers mistakes and having Varok Saurfang as his surrogate father figure and Mentor.

but Cataclysm and MoP happened.

[Leodric]

Yes, he nearly destroyed all of Azeroth with his power fantasies.

[Syegfryed]

Perhaps.

But then again, I doubt the Legion would just go "Gul'dan failed. Oh well, no reason to try again" and leave the orcs alone.

it would not be worthy the waste, without gul'dan would be something rly useless now that the orcs knew about then, and invasion just to wipe the orcs is not worth the effort since draenor is useless despite some cannon folder potencial

[Dch48]

He was a complete megalomaniac even before he got corrupted. He got what he deserved. Thrall made a huge mistake by putting him in charge. The only honorable Orcs are Thrall and Saurfang. I hate the rest and Orc is the only race I have never played and never will. Taurens are honorable. Orcs are savages.

[cparle87]

If we compare Garrosh to Sylvannas he had more legitimate reasons to do what he did. His people were starving and even though he didn't try any other way before resorting ro war he at least had better reasons. From that point of view he didn't go any wrong. However considering what he did he was no different than any villain.

How is your people starving right now any different than believing that a hundred years from now your people's grandchildren will be annihilated because they became peaceful while the other side couldn't live and let live and annihilated them because they let their guard down?