Increasing Tank Threat

[Marrilaife]

There wouldn't be threat issues if tanks could pick the Focusing Iris essence or the MOTHER essence. All this spec-based arbitration is causing unnecessary problems because post-modern Blizzard hates player agency.

Yeah, true, I don't even think every dps is popping their essence to pad mindlessly or fuck with the tank, the design of void emissary and the anti-cc emissary promotes "dump everything into that mob asap" mentality, only the bubble / knockback add is different and usually easily dealt with by a healer throwing some range spells at it. I heard the no-cc guy can still be rooted away but somehow I haven't ran many dungeons in the last 2 weeks with druids, so not sure.

Point is, dps are trying to do their job, and are punished by the game design. Not lack of skill / willingness from tanks, just the game limitations. Except 1 taunt button tanks don't really have "do more aggro" button, they have the m+ essence on 2m cd (I'll see tomorrow after reset if the cd goes down on rank3), and I'd swear majority of m+ tanks already used gear, stats, trinkets and talents to do as much aoe dps as possible, it's not like they're trading between dps and survivability, survivability is usually just about ilvl and defensive cooldown usage, maybe a trinket and tertiary azerite trait.

Some people believe there's this mystical world where tanks have a slider "max dps / full paper <----> 0 dps / never die", and it's a matter of "skill" to find a sweet spot, nope, not really.

P.S. Also rogues are already the best dps class to invite in m+, having tricks mandatory every time meme beams come off cd is an unnecessary rogue buff which they didn't need.

[Fascinate]

So you've entered every guild possible to gauge?
Server populations = more servers are medium - High - Full than there are low pop, and those server pops are fluid so if they show Full, that's a LOT of players logged in.

/WHO doesn't show you every player in the zone, but tend to show the max amount even at 4 AM these days across my 3 servers. Random low pop zones show between 20 and 40 players on average, not bad for "content nobody bothers with". That's before counting the players being phased into the zone.

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You don't know that, you believe that, and with your attitude towards the game, why wouldn't you?

Nobody likes to believe that something they dislike is successful. Meanwhile, the game's financial reports show otherwise.

Did you read my post? I said they are probably making near as much as they did in the games heyday because of microtransactions, mainly the WoW token. But that has nothing to do with the game being popular obviously. This topic goes way beyond just random guesses from in game tools btw, mmo's simply arent as popular as they used to be because of the mobile genre and BR's.

[Will]

Yeah, micro transactions are a real powerhouse these days. Even though a majority of players probably don't buy store stuff, those who go in for that sort of thing are easy to milk.

[Queen of Hamsters]

Did you read my post? I said they are probably making near as much as they did in the games heyday because of microtransactions, mainly the WoW token. But that has nothing to do with the game being popular obviously. This topic goes way beyond just random guesses from in game tools btw, mmo's simply arent as popular as they used to be because of the mobile genre and BR's.

Moving them goalposts yet again.
You're undeappreciating the strength of WoW as a product because you personally do not currently like it. That's all this is, and you merely join the ranks of the same kind of crowd that would denounce any and all Subscriber reports that showed + instead of - to fuel their own narrative.

They wouldn't be growing their income with fewer players than ever. The occasional mount (which far from everyone will buy) or pet doesn't make up for constant sub numbers. The wow token doesn't function if there's no demand or supply.

I see new players (achievements) everytime I'm in low level zones leveling an Allied race, despite people claiming for years that the game doesn't pull in new players... Needless to say, forumgoers, especially on these forums, aren't all that reliable in their narrative of "WoW is dying/dead" that's been going for 13 odd years by now.

BfA being so busy busy busy across servers all the way down to /who (with Twitch WFR viewership between, views on Cinematics etc) with fewer players than "ever before" would be nothing short of a miracle that they'd need to share with other online gaming companies, because man does it feel good to see, that should be bottled.

[Absintheminded]

Threat should just no longer be a mechanic. WoW is clearly an action-MMORPG now, and the only time threat is apparent is if the tank is sloppy. DPS can go ham pretty much 100% of the time and as long as the tank is actively using abilities there's never a problem.

No point trying to argue about what was better. Those of us who likes engaging, classic RPG mechanics will play classic and the rest who like fast-paced, button-mashing Will stick to live.

And for the record, I'm not implying anything other than what I prefer. The main difference was before you split time staring at threat meters and timers, and now there's just more stuff coming up on timers.

[Queen of Hamsters]

Yeah, micro transactions are a real powerhouse these days. Even though a majority of players probably don't buy store stuff, those who go in for that sort of thing are easy to milk.

WoW's micro transactions are benevolent compared to what struggling F2P titles pull, and that's something I can live with.

The fact that it's been pretty constant since WOTLK in terms of what is offered in the store says it's a solid system, but not perfect, since perfection would mean everyone would partake. And the store clearly isn't universally utilized nor liked.

[Shadowroxxor]

Heaven forbid tanking requires a hint of thought!

Just turn your brain off, bro

[endersblade]

There is absolutely nothing fun about threat. Fucking stupid that they nerfed it this expansion, glad I don't play. The whole point of threat is for the tank to hold aggro...I get it. But the tank should be going through his rotation ANYWAY...there's no reason AT ALL to make it such a goddamn chore. DPS should be able to go full ham without having to worry about pulling hate off the tank.

[Queen of Hamsters]

Threat should just no longer be a mechanic. WoW is clearly an action-MMORPG now, and the only time threat is apparent is if the tank is sloppy. DPS can go ham pretty much 100% of the time and as long as the tank is actively using abilities there's never a problem.

No point trying to argue about what was better. Those of us who likes engaging, classic RPG mechanics will play classic and the rest who like fast-paced, button-mashing Will stick to live.

And for the record, I'm not implying anything other than what I prefer. The main difference was before you split time staring at threat meters and timers, and now there's just more stuff coming up on timers.

But I like engaging, classic RPG mechanics (leveling, progressing, gearing, different races, collectibles) and I prefer Live (even after having tried Classic)...

And others yet will likely play both.

Weird how these things work.

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Heaven forbid tanking requires a hint of thought!

Just turn your brain off, bro

Tanking requires quite a bit more thought than spamming 1 button for threat generation (that even allowed AFK tanking at times) these days.

[Will]

Matter of opinion, glad you'll have your museum as it pleases you.

The GCD alone made the game slower to its detriment and they can't revert it soon enough. Additionally, needing to keep more in one's head than a 1-button rotation and a 2-ability boss feels like it might slow the onslaught of dementia, so I'll take it.

I get it, you're sick of people who are hyped for classic coming here and slagging retail off. But could you please choose your words a bit more tactfully? I too, look forward to classic and the slower paced style. The remark about dementia was simply uncalled-for, and calling it a museum piece also carries pretty negative connotations for people who are looking forward to classic.

You say how much classic fascists irritate you, and yet yourself come across as condescending towards them in return. Two wrongs do not make a right.

Classic can't come soon enough to finally shut your crowd up. But I have this sneaking suspicion that it won't manage to for very long.

[Queen of Hamsters]

I get it, you're sick of people who are hyped for classic coming here and slagging retail off. But could you please choose your words a bit more tactfully? I too, look forward to classic and the slower paced style. The remark about dementia was simply uncalled-for, and calling it a museum piece also carries pretty negative connotations for people who are looking forward to classic.

You say how much classic fascists irritate you, and yet yourself come across as condescending towards them in return. Two wrongs do not make a right.

The remark about dementia is actually relevant to myself, so no I don't see it as being uncalled for.
Calling it a museum = not my idea, saw it used by Classic players happy to have the game preserved in that time, and goes with the fact that some of you proclaim to want the slower pace and less hectic gameplay that you know won't change.

If I come across as condescending to them, that's something I can live with, because that's my point. I've been involved in countless discussions about Classic that didn't involve such elements, the odd outlier is acceptable.

[Will]

There is absolutely nothing fun about threat. Fucking stupid that they nerfed it this expansion, glad I don't play. The whole point of threat is for the tank to hold aggro...I get it. But the tank should be going through his rotation ANYWAY...there's no reason AT ALL to make it such a goddamn chore. DPS should be able to go full ham without having to worry about pulling hate off the tank.

I've tanked in Legion, and the last time I tanked prior to that was WotLK. I distinctly remember enjoying threat greatly. It encouraged me to cycle between mobs, either to maintain threat consistently across a pack, or more often to counteract a threat spike. I usually marked targets of priority to ensure that players put the bulk of their threat on a particular mob. Threat kept me on my toes as I couldn't lock a pack down without a bit of target switching, unless my DPS were very well behaved.

Yes, a tank should go through their rotation anyway, but threat was more of a thing when tanking more than 1 mob at a time.

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The remark about dementia is actually relevant to myself, so no I don't see it as being uncalled for.

Fair enough. Though the implication is clear. Classic isn't mentally-stimulating enough to you. I can respect that opinion. No harm done.
I feel raiding will probably be as you say. Which is why I'll be mostly PvPing, I think. I'm a bit apprehensive about 1 or 2 button rotations. PvP won't have the same simplicity -- should be more stimulating for me.

Truth be told I'm one of those people who will play classic in the ultimate hope that it's successful enough to encourage blizzard to try out TBC or WotLK legacy servers. To me, those expansions represented the time period where the game had the original, more "traditional" RPG-based design philosophies, yet rotations started to become more engaging, and more specs became viable.

[voxnor]

What? Using CC is literally what I'm talking about and you even mentioned it. You just tried to insult me and then agree with me?

Are you honestly trying to argue that having to CC something makes it difficult? For real?

I didn't realize it was hard to press the Sheep button. My bad.

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Clearly i can't prove anything as blizzard does not release sub numbers anymore and for good reason lol. I couldnt care less of who thinks what on a forum, i know for myself this game (at least prior to 8.2) is the lowest its been since probably 2005. The messed up part is blizzard is probably making close to what they did in the wrath/cata days because of mounts/pets and most importantly the WoW token.

Then why are you here? Honest question.. as Forums literally exist as an avenue to discuss things with other people.

*headdesk*

[cloudbuster]

I still run Omen, but hardly ever need to pay attention to it. I remember when as a dps I used to have to watch how my threat was trending, use Misdirection regularly and occasionally Feign Death mid-fight. It wasn't too much to ask of dps.

[Will]

Are you honestly trying to argue that having to CC something makes it difficult? For real?

I didn't realize it was hard to press the Sheep button. My bad.

In all fairness, although CC has never been difficult, I do recall that years ago, as soon as a CC (except sap) landed, the rest of the pack immediately became aggro'd. It wasn't a huge deal for a coordinated group -- they could simply time their CC to go off simultaneously -- but for PuGs I do remember some nasty deaths due to this old aggro behaviour.

General question here: Why do people care so much about sub numbers and blizzard's income? If you enjoy the game, just play it? Game's hardly a graveyard; plenty of folk around.

[Sensa1]

WoW's micro transactions are benevolent compared to what struggling F2P titles pull, and that's something I can live with.

The fact that it's been pretty constant since WOTLK in terms of what is offered in the store says it's a solid system, but not perfect, since perfection would mean everyone would partake. And the store clearly isn't universally utilized nor liked.

Queenie...read your back and forth on WoW subscriber's number

1) NEITHER of you presented any real, concrete evidence one way or another (and your random screen shots prove absolutely nothing)

2) There is a reason Blizz stopped reporting Subscriber numbers. It's the same reason Apple stopped reporting the number of iPhones sold (and I'm a big fan of Apple btw).

The reason should be self-evident but I'll explain it to you anyway. There was virtually no way either company was capable of maintaining their rate of growth (subscribers for Blizzard and sales for Apple). Both companies knew that not only were they incapable of repeating past success but that their market had "matured" to the point that the most likely result would be year or year declines (in subscribers / sales of iPhones). There is reliable evidence to support a decline in Apple sales available and even by your own admission, where you estimated BFA subscriber numbers, those numbers are way down from the peak subscriber numbers in Wrath.

3) Both Blizzard and Apples are refocusing efforts on services (in Blizzards case in-game microtransaction, in Apple's case new revenue streams from Apps, other products and new services like the upcoming Apple TV) and the other guy was right to point this out. Blizzard benefits from their micro transaction financially and from designing some or all of their gaming systems to increase MAU's - that's why you've had a version of Azerite Power and mission tables for 3 consecutive expansions. Apple Services / Apps keep you within their ecosystem and spending money as well even if you aren't buying a new phone as often.

4) Neither company is doomed and because of micro transactions both companies can remain as profitable as they once were, despite declines in sales, for an extended period of time.

5) It's not WoW hating to say there are less WoW subscribers today than in the past. Most reasonably objective people concede there are fewer subscribers today than in the past (even your own estimates agree with this conjecture)

6) If either Apple or Blizzard remotely approached past sales peak (phones sold in a quarter / year or subscribers) you could bet every last nickel you had that they would find a way to mention that in their quarterly report even though neither company "officially" reports those numbers anymore.

7) take a deep breath and enjoy the version of the game you like best

[Queen of Hamsters]

*snip*.

And yet BfA sold record amounts of copies, which they did report. And of course, it was "debunked" as untruthful or warped.

Apple and Blizzard are not the same company, nor do they have the same market. They stopped reporting sub numbers (WoD, obviously) and went over to MAUs, and MAUs have room for growth just fine. We can no longer say which portion of their MAUs are in which title, but financial growth won't happen without keeping players engaged and attracting new ones. The store isn't nearly enough of what it'd need to be to make up for a tiny playerbase.

Whilst I myself am 100% on board with the notion that WoW hasn't retained 12 million subs since WOTLK, I'm 100% off board on this idea that the game is now harboring 2 million players or less across all regions despite there having been 2 expansions, both of which doing the polar opposite of WoD, since the time when they stopped reporting subs. And let's not forget, even when they did report subs, people would maintain they weren't truthful. MAUs work better for corporate speak with the added bonus that anyone saying that WoW has 1 million subs, or 12 million, will be speculating.

My speculation is that the game is doing better than during the 14 months of literal drought that followed a polarizing expansion like MoP. BfA just had a new patch and is only halfway to its end, yet it'd somehow be performing worse than WoD? Nope, that "logic" is clearly based in the need to believe that the game is doing poorly "without the me", a notion not too uncommon on these forums.

In the end, it's speculation. I get that, people such as the one I've been going back and forth with, doesn't. And I for one think they should be challenged in their perpetual "lul dead gaem"-narrative that was old 10 ducking years ago.

As I said, if Blizzard's found a way to make the game seem as busy as it has been since 8.2 without it being that busy in reality, they need to bottle and sell that shit to struggling game companies.

That's my exit out of this thread and meaningless back-and-forth (since 10 years from now this discussion will still be running). Anno 1800 awaits!

[Logwyn]

the opposite was true. a tank cant just choose to do more threat. a dps can choose to do less threat. tanking in vanilla was the same as tanking now. you used your rotation until you didnt need to use it anymore because the little threat meter says youre ok.

Or you used your threat dump as dps.

[Absintheminded]

But I like engaging, classic RPG mechanics (leveling, progressing, gearing, different races, collectibles) and I prefer Live (even after having tried Classic)...

And others yet will likely play both.

Weird how these things work.

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Tanking requires quite a bit more thought than spamming 1 button for threat generation (that even allowed AFK tanking at times) these days.

That's great and all, but Blizz isn't giving you both as an option together

[Sensa1]

And yet BfA sold record amounts of copies, which they did report. And of course, it was "debunked" as untruthful or warped.

Apple and Blizzard are not the same company, nor do they have the same market. They stopped reporting sub numbers (WoD, obviously) and went over to MAUs, and MAUs have room for growth just fine. We can no longer say which portion of their MAUs are in which title, but financial growth won't happen without keeping players engaged and attracting new ones. The store isn't nearly enough of what it'd need to be to make up for a tiny playerbase.

The issue that you were debating was about subscriber numbers not launch day sales. They are 2 wholly different things. I, for example, bought BFA but am no longer a subscriber. And the fact that Blizzard released that info further supports my argument that if the actual subscriber numbers were record setting they would report that too and they haven't which is all you really need to know.

The Blizzard / Apple comparison was an analogy and a valid one at that. They obviously aren't the same company and don't have the same market but they, and most business, operate in very similar ways and both have at one time or another been a dominant market player and both have since seen some retrenchment from their peaks which it is why it's an apt comparison.

I also think you are vastly underestimating the "store". Selling re-coloured mounts is probably the most profitable thing Blizzard does which is also why with well over 200 mounts already in the game that no one can possibly use 8.2 is probably the patch with the most mount related content in WoW history ()some geared to MAU participation and some geared to store sales). The addition of the WoW token is generating oodles of money for them too that they didn't have in the first decade of the game existence.

As I said, adding all these things together means BFA could have 2 million subscribers or it could have 8 million subscribers and Blizzard is making as much money as before when they had 11 million plus subscribers because they have become better at monetization of their subscriber base (and in fact create systems to appeal to that type of customer)

But, and you're probably not going to like this, the biggest reason to suspect that actual subscriber numbers are down is the pending release of Classic. How many times did Blizzard say they would never go back and do Classic (they even lied about not having the game files on hand for pete's sake). About as many times as they said they would never do a WoW token and then eventually did. If the trajectory of WoW was as rosy as you think Classic would never have been released. As I said in my original post, many of the in-game systems in BFA are thinly veiled mechanisms designed to increase MAU despite a lower subscriber base. While the developers try to cloak these devices in lore or some other justification it's all about the MAU's / monetization now. The reversal on doing Classic, though I'm grateful for it, is more of the same. It's not being done out of kindness. It's being done for monetary reasons and because the overall trajectory of WoW is on the decline (as almost any game 15 years would be). If Blizzard was still at Wrath subscriber levels, in addition to all their current monetization mechanism in place, they would continue to laugh at people that wanted Classic instead of trying to cash in on their past glory.

Anyway, enough said, peace out.