Why did Ulduar (as current content) only last for 4 months?

[Marrilaife]

And when you consider World Top 200, you're effectively eliminating the tryhards and the ridiculous split runners from the equation and looking at a picture where the elegance of natural gear auto-nerfing does its thing.

Wish you were right, sadly I've seen guilds as low as 300-400 rank still ask for mandatory 1 alt and mandatory ptr / beta testing, which imo is the domain of top 100 bracket.

Yes, raiding was much "simpler" back then, before the ideas that split raiding, class stacking and swapping to fotm class alts is "the way to go" in top difficulty of raiding. Having 2 priests of any spec to do the MC on Razuvious 25man was considered a logistical challenge.

Even when let's say disc priest was mandatory for heroic lich king, you still saw decent variety among other healers, druids and shamans were played, nowadays down to 300 rank it was very hard for me to find logs of mythic Azshara with a resto druid, there were so few, and logs without disc or hpal were basically non existent.

Yogg+0 was considered "mathematically impossible" until some chinese guild managed to do it, nowadays this thing would be theorycrafted to oblivion, cheesed by 100 different strats, and the one that worked would be streamed and published and become the "go to" strat for everyone and their dog, same how ideas that you need 2 guardian druids and everyone without a blink needs to racechange to goblin for KJ, or that you need blood dks for aggramar spread like the wildfire and became "the standard", at least until these bosses were heavily nerfed (I think people used blood dk strat for Aggramar well into 1k world ranks).

The abundance of information and the speed of access to it created a much more rigid meta, back in wotlk lower ranked guilds would often whisper the server top guild for tips how to deal with stuff, nowadays no need, there are discords, streams, videos and other ways to check what world top guilds are doing and try to copypasta their approach.

[crazyman2]

I had to quit for a few months because of personal reasons and basically got to raid the first month of ulduar and the last month of ToC.

Ulduar was a great raid... if you could do it. The encounters were mostly interesting, it was aesthetically one of the best raids, but it was so damn hard at release. I could definitely believe they lost raid participation and wasn't able to regain it quickly.

I feel like XT-002 at release was probably harder than most TBC bosses other than Illidan, Archimonde, Vashj, Kael, and anything in Sunwell. It was nerfed several times in just that first month to the point of being manageable for average guil,ds but a lot of people lost interest in raids by that point. It was especially bad coming off of naxx, which was probably the easiest tier ever released.

[Velshin]

Ulduar today is a raid held in high regard. It was an absolutely massive raid with 14 bosses in total, with some of them being optional, and one of them being secret. Many bosses had a hard mode that could significantly change the way you would fight a boss, and was imo, pretty revolutionary in wow standards. Not to mention the massive amount of achievements in the place, with a lot of them not even being required for the meta.

Yet despite all of this content, blizz released ToC a mere 4 months later, a raid with only 6 bosses with only two rooms and no trash. While there were guilds pushing Alg, yogg 0 etc. when ToC came out, for a majority of raiders, Ulduar became irrelevant. So why did blizz cut's Ulduar's life so short? Were they scared at how all of those naxx guilds were struggling through it? Were they not satisfied with Ulduar? I've heard some talk that Ulduar actually wasn't as liked when it first came out, did that have something to do with it?

Yes Blizzard admitted it long time ago that it was a mistake they didn't let Ulduar last longer than it should be.

[Flurryfang]

I had to quit for a few months because of personal reasons and basically got to raid the first month of ulduar and the last month of ToC.

Ulduar was a great raid... if you could do it. The encounters were mostly interesting, it was aesthetically one of the best raids, but it was so damn hard at release. I could definitely believe they lost raid participation and wasn't able to regain it quickly.

I feel like XT-002 at release was probably harder than most TBC bosses other than Illidan, Archimonde, Vashj, Kael, and anything in Sunwell. It was nerfed several times in just that first month to the point of being manageable for average guil,ds but a lot of people lost interest in raids by that point. It was especially bad coming off of naxx, which was probably the easiest tier ever released.

Ulduar was not hard....until Mimiron. Most of the low-to-mid level raiding guilds on my server could easily get past Hodir and Thorim, ending at Freya or Mimiron, and there were often pug groups going for hodir kills and even going for Thorim.

I get that it took some weeks for people to get past XT-002 and Kologarn, but that is how it is with most raids and their mid-set bosses. Ulduar was no different from ICC with Saurfang or Hagara in Dragon Soul, its just the way they design raids.

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I don't think this had anything to do with the content of Ulduar. Ulduar was doing fine, and to the best of my memory, most guilds at the mid-level were still trying to get into hard modes and struggling to kill Yogg at the time of ToC launch. I simply think, that Blizzard was trying to predict a quick expansion and wanted to set a quick content flow with large raid followed by small raid.

They proberly learned a lot from the experience, such as that when you create content with a better loot table, it pretty much empties out the previous content. That did not happen in TBC because of Attunements and other limiting factors, but in Wrath, players quickly moved up the raid ladder because of catch-up mechanics, instead of spreading out according to skill and time level.

[DeltrusDisc]

Well, no, not really. In MoP they introduced Flex, so you already had the same 3 levels of non-queuable raids that we have today. They were just named differently.

MoP: Flex, Normal, Heroic

Was renamed to:

Normal, Heroic, Mythic in WoD.

And it wasn't really until Trial Of Valor in legion that "Mythic" raiding really became the ultra hard mode raids we have now. Before then Mythic raids were not nearly as big a step up from Heroic.

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Not least because Sartharian 3 Drakes was actually the first raid with Hard Modes, not Ulduar.

I think you're missing the original point of my post... follow the quotes and you'll find someone saying Ulduar had mythic mode. lol

[Trajer]

ToGC was the most horrid raiding experience in the entire history of WoW, with maybe Crucible of Storms being a snoozer filler raid but that's mostly because it was a pointless raid.

I don't know why people share this sentiment. Other than the Champions fight, it was an interesting change of pace and personally I very much enjoyed the Anub'arak fight.

[sam86]

because raiding in entire wrath was experimental
1st tier set had 'vehicle' raiding, with sarathion 3d new idea for loot (technically 1st one was in vanilla optional boss, but that idea was ignored for ages no idea why, even if it was good)
2nd tier is Ulduar, which imo perfected the raid, fights change a lot depend on what u do, multiple 'hard modes', not all bosses have them either, etc
3rd tier is the infamous ToS, which while great had 4 different raid sets which made ppl hate it very fast for deserved reasons
4th raid is sadly the current one ICC, which was rushed (why?) since it was planned to be far bigger than end result, with current model of right click for HM -.-

No one expected Ulduar to explode in popularity, they did lot of effort in it - probably most thought about raid due to how many different mechanics in it, it is also probably why they never did Ulduar-like raid again, it need lot of work, something they didn't show they want to do specially in BFA and WoD

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That did not happen in TBC because of Attunements and other limiting factors

TBC launched with both t4 and t5 raids, something that never happened before in wow, then they released t6 when literally no one on earth can even access it (no one killed Kael when BT was out, yes blizz released 2 raids when no one on earth was able to access them)
Then TBC stayed like that until Sunwell, which still dropped t6 items btw
So the reason that didn't happen in TBC because TBC only had one real tier upgrade after game launch : t6, TBC just used fact that it was brutal hard (until ppl outgeared it and turned BT/MHJ to total joke with rogue tanking and druid with 105% dodge chance) to make ppl stay for as long as possible in raids, and while it had many raids, the tier upgrade is just exactly 4, t4, t5, t6, and t6+ from sunwell items (some items still shared t6 ilvl)
And no way blizz do that now with how they want to make even a single tree they use get reused for 1502+ difficulty setting, instead of actually give us content (like TBC or to less degree wrath) they just release now 1 raid, make it 4 difficulties, and give u do exact same dungeon for 15+ mythic...

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Yes Blizzard admitted it long time ago that it was a mistake they didn't let Ulduar last longer than it should be.

i wonder if they would said that if ToC was success
ToC is great raid, but it was too short and had 4 difficulties, back then ppl did all difficulties because concept was still fresh, nowadays ppl who raid mythic don't even set foot in hc
I like ToC but even I hated it back then, doing 2 easy bosses then beg to RNG gods that u don't get a retardin in enemy hero isn't really fun, specially when u have to do it 4 times (I had a warlock friend, who died from the splash dmg of seal of crusade of the enemy paladin -.-)

[Sangfoudre]

Not exactly...
In Wrath there was normal for Naxx, then normal with optional hard modes for Ulduar, then normal and heroic for both ToC and ICC.
Heroic is still heroic... now they just offer and even tougher mode above heroic... and an even easier mode below normal.

I'd add that there was a difficulty difference between 10 man and 25 man, the later has always been considered as harder, with more rewards, including higher item level.

[Relapses]

SIZE]i wonder if they would said that if ToC was success
ToC is great raid, but it was too short and had 4 difficulties, back then ppl did all difficulties because concept was still fresh, nowadays ppl who raid mythic don't even set foot in hc
I like ToC but even I hated it back then, doing 2 easy bosses then beg to RNG gods that u don't get a retardin in enemy hero isn't really fun, specially when u have to do it 4 times (I had a warlock friend, who died from the splash dmg of seal of crusade of the enemy paladin -.-)

ToC was released while WoW was at its peak popularity. I think they experimented with a lot of things which eventually became permanent fixtures in the WoW raiding scene. (It laid the groundwork for 10M Heroic raiding which would go on to become the most popular way to raid in Cata and MoP.) It was a filler raid through and through and Blizzard half admitted it when explaining the extremely uninspired gear artwork. I don't think it was bad, per se. It wasn't even easy. (Grand Crusader is still a title I very much appreciate.) But I think its existence as a midway point between Ulduar and ICC largely worked negatively for both raids. It's good that it exists but looking back they probably should have given it gear equivalent to Ulduar's and released it as a companion piece instead of its own tier. (As Ruby Sanctum later did.)

[Sangfoudre]

Well, its possible server identity was still a heavy thing influencing things like this, but just my 2 cents:

-People on both my servers loved Ulduar (Horde and Alliance)

-I don't know where you are getting it only last 4 months, Ulduar still had upgrades, a Legendary, and many achievements, world firsts too I think

-I don't get the hate for ToC. It fit thematically. It had many major lore characters and the LK. It was pretty cool, saved for the last boss being meh. Not every raid needs massive square footage. Though, ToC should have been between Naxx and Ulduar, or released simultaneously, or had the item level closer than Ulduar. ToC should have filled in some gear spots for classes instead of "trivializing" Ulduar, as you said. Not many spellcaster rings in Ulduar? Great chance to put it in ToC.

-I think they were trying something "new" with the "limited number of tries" thing... it has its pros and cons like anything else.

This raid was not that bad as there was no trash maobs and no need to move (opposed to the massive size of Ulduar, or ICC later).
We (mid pop french rp pve server) used to do it in 10 man and 25 man while progressing in 10 man icc as item level and tier 9 were still relevant at this time.

[sam86]

ToC was released while WoW was at its peak popularity. I think they experimented with a lot of things which eventually became permanent fixtures in the WoW raiding scene. (It laid the groundwork for 10M Heroic raiding which would go on to become the most popular way to raid in Cata and MoP.) It was a filler raid through and through and Blizzard half admitted it when explaining the extremely uninspired gear artwork. I don't think it was bad, per se. It wasn't even easy. (Grand Crusader is still a title I very much appreciate.) But I think its existence as a midway point between Ulduar and ICC largely worked negatively for both raids. It's good that it exists but looking back they probably should have given it gear equivalent to Ulduar's and released it as a companion piece instead of its own tier. (As Ruby Sanctum later did.)

that would been an amazing idea, in fact that would probably made ToC not hated at all !
it never occurred to me how a very simple idea like that would actually solved all problems, sir u are genius (i'm not mocking, i'm surprised how idea that simple is that great, i salute u)
btw i'm also grand crusade, when we actually did it my rl friend got the mount, so i left pc and grabbed his neck sayings 'gz' while shocking him :P

[Vynestra]

Because it took blizzard until legion to learn how to properly spread out content.

[DeltrusDisc]

I'd add that there was a difficulty difference between 10 man and 25 man, the later has always been considered as harder, with more rewards, including higher item level.

Yeah, that's true.

[crazyman2]

Ulduar was not hard....until Mimiron. Most of the low-to-mid level raiding guilds on my server could easily get past Hodir and Thorim, ending at Freya or Mimiron, and there were often pug groups going for hodir kills and even going for Thorim.

I get that it took some weeks for people to get past XT-002 and Kologarn, but that is how it is with most raids and their mid-set bosses. Ulduar was no different from ICC with Saurfang or Hagara in Dragon Soul, its just the way they design raids.

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I don't think this had anything to do with the content of Ulduar. Ulduar was doing fine, and to the best of my memory, most guilds at the mid-level were still trying to get into hard modes and struggling to kill Yogg at the time of ToC launch. I simply think, that Blizzard was trying to predict a quick expansion and wanted to set a quick content flow with large raid followed by small raid.

They proberly learned a lot from the experience, such as that when you create content with a better loot table, it pretty much empties out the previous content. That did not happen in TBC because of Attunements and other limiting factors, but in Wrath, players quickly moved up the raid ladder because of catch-up mechanics, instead of spreading out according to skill and time level.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Hotfixes/2009_Archive
April 17 (1st reset) - XT-002 Deconstructor will no longer cast Light Bomb or Gravity Bomb while channeling Tympanic Tantrum.
April 21 (2nd reset) -All of the additional creatures spawned during the XT-002 Deconstructor encounter can now be snared in either difficulty.
April 22 (2nd reset) - The enrage timer on XT-002 Deconstructor has been increased.
April 23 (2nd reset) - The damage of XT-002 Deconstructor's Gravity Bomb ability has been reduced.
April 28 (3rd reset) - The XT-002 Deconstructor encounter has received the following changes: The duration of Tympanic Trantrum has been reduced, the timer for XT-002 to hit berserk has been increased, the damage of Light Bomb has been reduced, the effect radius of Light Bomb has been reduced, and the health of XM-024 Pummeler has been reduced.
May 4th (4th reset) - The health of the Heart of the Deconstructor in the XT-002 Deconstructor encounter has been reduced.

I don't remember if we killed it after the first berserk nerf on the 2nd rest or the large nerf on the 3rd reset, but it wasn't pug friendly until at least 3rd reset. The guild in question had Sartharion 3D on both difficulties and had many 3/6 sunwell raiders. It was really frustrating to get brickwalled that quickly into a new raid. It was obviously more friendly later, but the tier overall started poorly.

[Flurryfang]

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Hotfixes/2009_Archive
April 17 (1st reset) - XT-002 Deconstructor will no longer cast Light Bomb or Gravity Bomb while channeling Tympanic Tantrum.
April 21 (2nd reset) -All of the additional creatures spawned during the XT-002 Deconstructor encounter can now be snared in either difficulty.
April 22 (2nd reset) - The enrage timer on XT-002 Deconstructor has been increased.
April 23 (2nd reset) - The damage of XT-002 Deconstructor's Gravity Bomb ability has been reduced.
April 28 (3rd reset) - The XT-002 Deconstructor encounter has received the following changes: The duration of Tympanic Trantrum has been reduced, the timer for XT-002 to hit berserk has been increased, the damage of Light Bomb has been reduced, the effect radius of Light Bomb has been reduced, and the health of XM-024 Pummeler has been reduced.
May 4th (4th reset) - The health of the Heart of the Deconstructor in the XT-002 Deconstructor encounter has been reduced.

I don't remember if we killed it after the first berserk nerf on the 2nd rest or the large nerf on the 3rd reset, but it wasn't pug friendly until at least 3rd reset. The guild in question had Sartharion 3D on both difficulties and had many 3/6 sunwell raiders. It was really frustrating to get brickwalled that quickly into a new raid. It was obviously more friendly later, but the tier overall started poorly.

You are talking about 3 weeks in m8..... Im talking 1½ months ahead or something like that when it comes to pugs. From my experience, most pugs had a hard time keeping people together to just kill Flame Leviathan.

But i also do remember killing XT despite the lack of nerfs, and i was just in a middle tier guild, mom/pops kinda thing. But then again, XT was the 2/3/4th boss, so he was not meant to be "that" hard. He was supposed to be close to a pushover, which he wasen't, but he werent hard. Besides, a number of those changes were aimed towards hard-mode XT, which was indeed....HARD.

You also have to remember, that most guilds started on 10-man (the easier difficulty) and wiped ALOT on Flameleviathan, because people did not get the mechanic or were good with demos at the start. I did not to get even try out XT before the mobs could be snared, which was much the same for most of my server.

[Schizoide]

I raided back in Ulduar and I can say I was more than ready for it to be over after those 4 months. No we didn't get zero lights but I was perfectly happy with that.

[dafuj]

I also think