Would you like to have new character models in classic WoW?

[ablib]

If client only settings, that only affect the user, were actually so harmless, Blizzard wouldn't care about client mods.

I will never understand why all these Wrath babies want to change Classic. Play the live game. It's what you're all wanting anyways. Updated models weren't in Classic. It really is that simple.

[Shaqthefat]

[B]
This only proves the slippery slope argument that people used at the beginning of all discussions, but it doesn't justify either what has already been done or what else could be.

The line is drawn when things impact gameplay. Cosmetics like models or spell animations don't have any impact on the majority of the game, they just make someones time playing the game better if they so chose to use updated things.

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If client only settings, that only affect the user, were actually so harmless, Blizzard wouldn't care about client mods.

Aren't client mods technically illegal under copyright laws?

[Alkizon]

The line is drawn when things impact gameplay.

and it's do affect RP-gameplay (not for you, but do). Proved many times by different people.

[Shaqthefat]

and it's do affect gameplay (not for you, but do). Proved many times by different people.

The color of someones eyes or the features on their face isn't gameplay

[Alkizon]

The color of someones eyes or the features on their face isn't gameplay

You’re funny (although rather ignorant), I'm afraid that everything won't do with just one “color”. Models are completely different and are in no way interconnected either from technical point of view or from perception side (what has been proven more than once a very very long time ago).

If they could be used as “alied races” (or customization), then this would have at least some basis, because it would be processed separately from each other, but since they made them interconnected, it breaks everything. And that exactly was one of many devs' mistakes.

[Shaqthefat]

You’re funny (although rather ignorant), I'm afraid that everything won't do with just one “color”. Models are completely different and are in no way interconnected either from technical point of view or from perception side (what has been proven more than once a very very long time ago).

Literally nothing you've said or talked about impacts gameplay. Explain to me what the difference in gameplay is for someone using the old female human model and the new female human model. Hair size? Lighting? Facial Expression? None of this changes the way the gameplays out.

[Alkizon]

Literally nothing you've said or talked about impacts gameplay. Explain to me what the difference in gameplay is for someone using the old female human model and the new female human model. Hair size? Lighting? Facial Expression? None of this changes the way the gameplays out.

Oh, so you want to prove directly, that being ignorant. I see... all right. Appearance is part of gameplay for role-playing game, which includes colors, geometry and animations, in short everything that is part of choice (only, of course, if game has such choice) = choice is part of gameplay. Everything (aka old toggle) that depreciates your choice is against the rules.

[Shaqthefat]

Oh, so you want to prove directly, that being ignorant. I see... all right. Appearance is part of gameplay for role-playing game, which includes colors, geometry and animations, in short everything that is part of choice (only, of course, if game has such choice) = choice is part of gameplay. Everything (aka old toggle) that depreciates your choice is against the rules.

Gameplay as a definition is held separate from graphic and sound design. The CHOOSING is part of the gameplay, but past that point the size of your goblins ears, targets horns, Draenei beard, Human hair become graphic design NOT gameplay. Gameplay is interaction from player to game. My gameplay is not messed up by a different card back in cards games or a different skin in a MOBA.

If they added the new models and that changed the hatboxes of the races then that would be a massive impact on gameplay, but if they didn't then it would be a GRAPHICAL change. None of the links you put up prove anything about gameplay and appearance being associated. I can send links of people saying the earth is flat and doesn't make the earth flat. Unless a game is specifically designed to combine graphics or sound design into the gameplay the three are separate. WoW is not a game that has combined graphic design with gameplay.

[Alkizon]

My gameplay

*indicates by nodding on the most significant part of message* no one argues with this part, only there're people who aren't you and for whom this choice is important part of gameplay (it's their right because it's role-playing game, which allows them to do it)... can you accept it? If not, then we finally got to key part of your problem

[Janaa]

it may be a painfully shallow argument by your standards, but the fact is that if we have a toggle in classic, why don't we have a toggle in retail? why is it that those retail fanboys get to have there cake and eat it too, but classic fanboys are screwed?

Huh? We don't have a toggle in classic for how OTHERS see you. You may have a toggle for how YOU see *all* models, but not for changing other peoples selected model option. There is not a selective toggle where you get to choose how other people see your character.

[Skulltaker]

Oh, so you want to prove directly, that being ignorant. I see... all right. Appearance is part of gameplay for role-playing game, which includes colors, geometry and animations, in short everything that is part of choice (only, of course, if game has such choice) = choice is part of gameplay. Everything (aka old toggle) that depreciates your choice is against the rules.

World of WarCraft is not a Role Playing Game, though. And simply by activating the color blind mode I can alter the way your character looks. So, the color blind mode is against the rules, aswell?

[Alkizon]

Huh? We don't have a toggle in classic for how OTHERS see you. You may have a toggle for how YOU see *all* models, but not for changing other peoples selected model option. There is not a selective toggle where you get to choose how other people see your character.

not in Classic, but was on retail and that was a problem, which we're talking about since 2014 year.

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Oh, I didn't want to be offensive, just to correct understanding. Sorry if it happened.

No, that toggle was for how YOU see all characters, not how OTHERS see your character.

that exactly what I said, there is some obvious misunderstanding here, since in essence it is the same just formulated from different angles

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World of WarCraft is not a Role Playing Game, though. And simply by activating the color blind mode I can alter the way your character looks. So, the color blind mode is against the rules, aswell?

Oh yeah here we go again, it's not role playing game (stupid devs even made whole separate realms, for what?)... let's see, you know, nothing you can do about for not understand there is nothing in settings to help you not see difference between old and new model. Well, only if turn off monitor completely, they're different, and no setting will cancel it already (the only one that did this and did it unfairly was toggle).

It isn't. And, as for the rest of your post, can you maybe rephrase that so that it makes sense? Because that is just ramblings.

No, this is role-playing game, and you already saw essence of what was said and ignored it above. So I can’t help you in any way.

[Janaa]

They don't care about others, but others for some reason begging like if they do, hiding behind that “this isn't important/doesn't affect” and other idiocy - don't contradict yourself and don't try to decide for others.

No contradiction. Saying "I prefer no, but don't really care either way" and also saying "nobody else cares about your character" isn't a contradiction - both statements can be true at the same time. This argument is about how players themselves perceive how other players perceive their character. People(1) think that other people(2) care about how (1)'s character looks. You've made the argument that it affects RP. This argument is from ones own perception of other peoples perception. You don't actually know if (2)'s perception of your(1) character changes with different models. There is virtually no evidence of this, only players projection of their own perception.

Allowing for outliers, as I did at the end, saying that occasions where this does happen are vanishingly small, is not a contradiction. In any standard distribution, there is the possibility of rare outliers. Allowance for that fact doesn't contradict the central argument - that others perceptions of how armor looks on your character will virtually never change between model types, because they just don't care.

[Skulltaker]

Oh yeah here we go again, it's not role playing game... let's see, you know, nothing you can do about for not understand difference between old and new model. Well, only if turn off monitor completely, they're different, and no setting will cancel it already (the only one that did this and did it unfairly was toggle).

It isn't. And, as for the rest of your post, can you maybe rephrase that so that it makes sense? Because that is just ramblings.

Edit: You can also write it in French, if you prefer that.

[Janaa]

not in Classic, but was on retail and that was a problem, which we're talking about since 2014 year.

No, that toggle was for how YOU see all characters, not how OTHERS see your character.

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It isn't. And, as for the rest of your post, can you maybe rephrase that so that it makes sense? Because that is just ramblings.

Ramblings is mainly what he does. It takes a lot of time and analysis to get to what his actual point is. You have to re-arrange everything into a coherent conversational order, and then work from there.

[Skulltaker]

Ramblings is mainly what he does. It takes a lot of time and analysis to get to what his actual point is. You have to re-arrange everything into a coherent conversational order, and then work from there.

Well, I get that English isn't his native language, which is no excuse, but the last one was just nonsense, no matter how I rearrange it... I wanted to give him a chance to properly express what he tried to say, no matter how wrong he is.

[Shaqthefat]

*indicates by nodding on the most significant part of message* no one argues with this part, only there're people who aren't you and for whom this choice is important part of gameplay (it's their right because it's role-playing game, which allows them to do it)... can you accept it? If not, then we finally got to key part of your problem

We are out a point where we are arguing subjective opinions. I agreed that choice is gameplay, however after that choice what you look like isn't gameplay in WoW. People can think something is gameplay, but that doesn't make it gameplay, because gameplay is clearly defined as being separate from graphic design and sound design. WoW is NOT a game where graphic design and gameplay overlap. The choice of someones appearance is gameplay, the design of the model is NOT gameplay. Picking what features to have on my character and what gear I want to put on is apart of the gameplay experience. However, the appearance of those models is not gameplay. If I where to use a set of gear that only looked good on the old models and someone looked at me through the new models and thought "wow that fucking sucks" that would have no impact on the gameplay of the game. Them looking at me is not gameplay.

Also my problem is that I think you and those people are wrong, because it isn't gameplay. Gameplay, graphic design, and sound design are clearly defined not left as some mysterious way of creating a game thats meant for personal interpretation

[Alanar]

Even when all the models are old on your side, your client, it still affects you? You see them as old models but they see you and themselves as new models. How does that affect you?

Oo stop with this nonsense.. ofc you should be playing with old models and every one else.. it will never happen that you use the new one other old. They would never allow that. Besides its classic.. play with how it used to be.. ofc this is gonna effect others.

[Shaqthefat]

not in Classic, but was on retail and that was a problem, which we're talking about since 2014 year.

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Oh, I didn't want to be offensive, just to correct understanding. Sorry if it happened.

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Oh yeah here we go again, it's not role playing game (stupid devs even made whole separate realms, for what?)... let's see, you know, nothing you can do about for not understand difference between old and new model. Well, only if turn off monitor completely, they're different, and no setting will cancel it already (the only one that did this and did it unfairly was toggle).

Pinning WoW down on one type of category grossly diminishes the expansive nature of the game

[Alkizon]

Shaqthefat
Also my problem is that I think you and those people are wrong

Well, just as I said.

Shaqthefat
Big revelation you've had. You could've asked anyone I've known throughout my whole life on that one. When something is clearly defined and then when people starting to believe against the clear definition they become wrong

This doesn't change fact that appearance (again, if choice) is part of gameplay (wiki):

Gameplay is the specific way in which players interact with a game (c) but definition is quite general, hence possible options, so (back to first link): Generally, gameplay is considered to be the overall experience of playing a video game excluding factors like graphics and sound. Game mechanics, on the other hand, is the sets of rules in a game that are intended to produce an enjoyable gaming experience.(c) - customization (choice of race, appearance, name, class) is part of game mechanics, then by definition is part of gameplay.

Well, you can't deny it, just ignore it, and that what you're exactly apparently doing.