9.0 General Discussion

[FlubberPuddy]

If you think covenant abilities being locked is bad, you should really see some of those soulbind traits, those are even worse.

This, but people are screeching over the abilities themselves which I have no idea why. The soulbinds make the abilities themselves feel like baby shit in the overall scheme of things.

Passive power increases that add up over the gearing system > 1 single ability that's not even core to a class's rotation.

[Sondrelk]

I am like 65% sure that's a troll tweet meant to stir the hive, especially after reading the following one.






Well a few things:


In both examples you listed, a consumable is a viable alternative to rogue skip, even if it means no combat pot(which only matters in 20's or higher), and most classes have decent aoe. Its just a matter of movement. A lot of the class specific utilities have a viable substitute that's not as good, but manageable. The only one's that don't are Monk/DH debuffs but that's a topic for another time. Things like Bloodlust/Brez/Stealth/Teleports/etc have been homogenized for awhile now.

The only class that still has unique game-changing utility is Warlocks with lock-gate and summon stone.


Furthermore, the classes aren't balanced either, which by principle isn't a good thing, but Blizzard has done a decent job at, because you are right that they are all unique and have different shit going on, but as you can see going in the Shadowlands Blizzard is doing sweeping changes in an attempt to balance them and close performance gaps, they also have historically removed things that made classes too egregious in an attempt to genuinely homogenize the classes (Symbiosis removal,Burst of Speed removal, double Spirit Link, etc etc.) In BFA a lot of classes are similar in design.


Its also worth noting that Covenants are also a temporary feature, and as I'm sure you understand balancing a competitive MMO in a stable manner is an exceptionally difficult task. Do we really want to add on another entire system Blizzard has to struggle keeping balanced the entire expansion? Because assuming the sky is falling and Covenants end up being super unbalanced how does Blizzard even approach nerfs? Do they nerf the class to prevent retroactive Covenant regret? Or do they nerf the Covenant and create more problems that way?

I feel like homogenizing or allowing the swap of Covenants will make things a lot simpler which would lead to a healthier game overall. I do not wish to see Blizzard playing catch-up for the rest of the xpac especially if Covenants will still have tons of content outside of their abilities. I also think Blizzard knows this which is why they've immediately stated they will put this change in place if the current system fails.

Perfect balance isnt truly possible anyways unless you boil all classes down to their most essential components, and there is a wast yawning chasm between perfect balance and specific builds being broken.
At the moment most classes fall somewhere in the range of 10% apart in the worst case scenarios, and that is with perfect play and gear.
The point of a difficult choice is to add in an option that makes the game more engaging, and not so much a blanc box-ticking excercise where each encounter has a rigidly determined best solution that everyone adheres to, and instead allowing groups to play to their own strengths and weaknesses.

Without making the covenants a difficult decision the entire system lacks any sort of teeth, instead replacing it with a system where the covenants themelves might be diverse, but the abilities will be rigidly adhered to.


Also, as i mentioned above. Hardcore players will swap between covenants no matter what. And that is their prerogative, that does not mean you should cater to them and make it easier for the Hardcore players to achieve what they want than what it is for the casual players.
This is a battle we have tried fighting with the Hardcore players for years, where they want less diversity and more homogenization, all for the purpose of making the game easier for them, not for making the game better. And certainly not making the game better for those who enjoy diverse playstyles.

[FlubberPuddy]

Generic as in not class/spec specific.

What do you mean? Why wouldn't DPS Warriors/Paladins want the Final Moments Trait that increases their execute phase?

Why wouldn't say a Shadow Priest want to dps for 10 secs longer after they say die from Surren2Madness??

You can already see easily which traits synergize with specific classes and/or roles.

It's funny to see people downplaying the Soulbinds over 1 active ability holy shit.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

What do you mean? Why wouldn't DPS Warriors/Paladins want the Final Moments Trait that increases their execute phase?

Why wouldn't say a Shadow Priest want to dps for 10 secs longer after they say die from Surren2Madness??

You can already see easily which traits synergize with specific classes and/or roles.

It's funny to see people downplaying the Soulbinds over 1 active ability holy shit.

Random but personally I'm not a fan of excute phases I prefer to just go all in regardless if the enemy has less then 30% HP or not. Also non class like abilities don't bother me, in fact I endorse it, makes you more "unique."


I realize if people want execute phases(Execute, hammer of wrath etc etc) there should at least be a talent or some ability that changes your damage somewhat to have execute phases therefore giving someone the choice of playstyle change).

[Kumorii]

Here’s the thing about that choice

You aren’t choosing a positive thing you are choosing a negative thing

It’s not that you get to choose what powerful skill you have it’s that you get to choose what areas of the game you are going to be worse in

I am OK with everything being separated from player power you cannot make player power tied behind a covenant because that is going to piss off a lot of people the system will not work

One meaningful choice made at the beginning of the expansion is not the same as many meaningful choices made throughout the game

Maybe I choose to be the angel Brose on my monk that ability is 100% single target a majority of raid bosses are not single target meaning that I am cutting my damage down the chancing wipes those chancing failure for the other people in the group or at least making their time harder because blizzard decided to tie class defining player power behind this choice for no reason
Maybe I choose to be the angel Bros on my monk that ability is 100% single target a majority of Raid bosses are not single target meaning that I am cutting my damage down the chancing wipes that’s chancing failure for the other people in the group or at least making their time harder because blizzard decided to tie class defining player power behind this choice for no reason


This is not a meaningful choice it is a choice for the sake of having a choice and those never work out well and blizzard knows this

Curious, what would be a choice you approve of? Because literally every single choice in all games that have them means you are choosing one or the other. You can't get benefits from both or all choices between two or more because then it's not a choice.

I choose X talent I am worse in Y area if I had taken Z talent instead.
If I upgrade X weapon my Y weapon is worse etc etc... It's how choices work and can't work any other way.

[Sharby]

Perfect balance isnt truly possible anyways unless you boil all classes down to their most essential components, and there is a wast yawning chasm between perfect balance and specific builds being broken.
At the moment most classes fall somewhere in the range of 10% apart in the worst case scenarios, and that is with perfect play and gear.
The point of a difficult choice is to add in an option that makes the game more engaging, and not so much a blanc box-ticking excercise where each encounter has a rigidly determined best solution that everyone adheres to, and instead allowing groups to play to their own strengths and weaknesses.

Without making the covenants a difficult decision the entire system lacks any sort of teeth, instead replacing it with a system where the covenants themelves might be diverse, but the abilities will be rigidly adhered to.


Also, as i mentioned above. Hardcore players will swap between covenants no matter what. And that is their prerogative, that does not mean you should cater to them and make it easier for the Hardcore players to achieve what they want than what it is for the casual players.
This is a battle we have tried fighting with the Hardcore players for years, where they want less diversity and more homogenization, all for the purpose of making the game easier for them, not for making the game better. And certainly not making the game better for those who enjoy diverse playstyles.

Well Covenant homogenization is off the table, but free talent swapping is, so let's focus on that. It was an error of mine to bring that up still.

Perfect Balance is impossible, but that doesn't mean that Blizzard should stop actively trying to reach it. Especially with a feature that hasn't even come out yet, if they made you able to swap it, the >loss<(and I fully acknowledge it is a loss) really wouldn't be felt as much by the general playerbase since I'm confident in saying most people don't keep up with Alpha outside the initial announcements.

Casual players are not going to suddenly hate the system because you're able to swap abilities because gameplay means very little to a casual outside of 'does it look cool' and 'does it help me get what I desire', which isn't wrong by any means, but priorities are different. It is also worth noting if we go down the route of allowing you to swap on a whim, the notion that the Covenants themselves become boring doesn't really hold up considering none of the abilities will be homogenized. And again, it wouldn't affect casuals or goad them into picking one or the other because at the level of play casuals are at, the only people 'forcing' them into picking optimal shit are jerks that can't recognize the level of play they're in. I think it is a great compromise that leaves the system functioning as intended while also not hindering those who optimize while also not adding even more problems to Blizzard's plate.

Which is why I think this is the solution they will end up taking.

[FlubberPuddy]

I am like 65% sure that's a troll tweet meant to stir the hive, especially after reading the following one.

Should read his other responses https://twitter.com/Atacamitee/statu...34840076779521

"Druid has completely incomparable utility and damage options to a priest. Noone thinks you should be able to reroll from druid to priest. Covenants are like subclasses, I think it's pretty cool."

And this is what I've been saying as well. No one expects to be able to all re-roll to whichever class is FOTM.

[Vyomesh2]

We havent seen the souldbind or legendaries yet you are judging 1 ability from an entire talent tree and judgingit the aoe tree what if the covenant with the aoe spell only has ST focussed traits in the binds did you ever consider that? no you look at one spell and start yelling for mommy to come help you out.

I-It's only Alpha!
I-It's only Beta!
I-it's only the first patch!
Yeah, no. Not doing this shit again.

[Sondrelk]

Well Covenant homogenization is off the table, but free talent swapping is, so let's focus on that. It was an error of mine to bring that up still.

Perfect Balance is impossible, but that doesn't mean that Blizzard should stop actively trying to reach it. Especially with a feature that hasn't even come out yet, if they made you able to swap it, the >loss<(and I fully acknowledge it is a loss) really wouldn't be felt as much by the general playerbase since I'm confident in saying most people don't keep up with Alpha outside the initial announcements.

Casual players are not going to suddenly hate the system because you're able to swap abilities because gameplay means very little to a casual outside of 'does it look cool' and 'does it help me get what I desire', which isn't wrong by any means, but priorities are different. It is also worth noting if we go down the route of allowing you to swap on a whim, the notion that the Covenants themselves become boring doesn't really hold up considering none of the abilities will be homogenized. And again, it wouldn't affect casuals or goad them into picking one or the other because at the level of play casuals are at, the only people 'forcing' them into picking optimal shit are jerks that can't recognize the level of play they're in. I think it is a great compromise that leaves the system functioning as intended while also not hindering those who optimize while also not adding even more problems to Blizzard's plate.

Which is why I think this is the solution they will end up taking.

Free talent changes for the abilities would still be homogenization. The second you give the elitist players that wants to make the game easeir for them to the detriment of the rest of the game you cannot take it back easily.

Besides, the point fo the covenant is to have it be an important choice. If you remove the important part of that choice then there is no reason to stick to one, or possibly even do it at all. Someone mentioned the lack of reason to do the Garrison questline earlier, and that is pretty much exactly what it would be.
Once the player can swap easily then the covenant abilities will instead become a rigidly adhered to list of abilities where at best you might ave 1 for Single target, 1 for AoE and 1 for PvP, with no reason to swap them out.

[protip]

Should read his other responses https://twitter.com/Atacamitee/statu...34840076779521

"Druid has completely incomparable utility and damage options to a priest. Noone thinks you should be able to reroll from druid to priest. Covenants are like subclasses, I think it's pretty cool."

And this is what I've been saying as well. No one expects to be able to all re-roll to whichever class is FOTM.

Yeah, that's definitely sincere. A lot of people care about those "cool RPG elements."

In my opinion, that's the issue that has made current WoW feel so flat. You just load into whatever preset you looked up for every situation, and either the answer is the same for everyone, or it's purely cosmetic. Pretty lame, tbh. An RPG needs to force a player to consider how they want to approach the game as an individual, and covenants look like they're going to do that.

[keldarepewpew]

I-It's only Alpha!
I-It's only Beta!
I-it's only the first patch!
Yeah, no. Not doing this shit again.

for bfa we never got to really see alpha we had a super super super short beta with no time to iterate. This is a very different situation

[FlubberPuddy]

Casual players are not going to suddenly hate the system because you're able to swap abilities because gameplay means very little to a casual outside of 'does it look cool' and 'does it help me get what I desire', which isn't wrong by any means, but priorities are different. It is also worth noting if we go down the route of allowing you to swap on a whim, the notion that the Covenants themselves become boring doesn't really hold up considering none of the abilities will be homogenized. And again, it wouldn't affect casuals or goad them into picking one or the other because at the level of play casuals are at, the only people 'forcing' them into picking optimal shit are jerks that can't recognize the level of play they're in. I think it is a great compromise that leaves the system functioning as intended while also not hindering those who optimize while also not adding even more problems to Blizzard's plate.

Which is why I think this is the solution they will end up taking.

Stepping away from charged labels, there's a large group of people in the game that don't care to micro-manage at the level that people who min-max do. And Blizzard has also been making efforts to decrease that kind of micro-management.

So yes there will be those, who are in the vast majority of the player population, that don't want to micro-manage at the level of the people that min-max. And Blizzard agrees that shouldn't be the case either. Just as Ion brought up to people really change out their race for specific racials? He can make that statement because they obviously have data that majority don't do that.

And for people that do like to min-max to eke out the most performance they can they will do whatever is required. Max from Limit even said so, he said their guilds actually hate doing all the shit that's been required in BFA to be World First, but if Blizzard puts in those things you can be damn sure they're going to do them regardless. The guy from Method who was with him on the podcast also agreed with him.

So if your much smaller population is going to do something regardless anyway, what's the need to cater to them? They're always going to adapt to what's required regardless of which system is in place.

[Sondrelk]

What do you mean? Why wouldn't DPS Warriors/Paladins want the Final Moments Trait that increases their execute phase?

Why wouldn't say a Shadow Priest want to dps for 10 secs longer after they say die from Surren2Madness??

You can already see easily which traits synergize with specific classes and/or roles.

It's funny to see people downplaying the Soulbinds over 1 active ability holy shit.

That is true for literally every single non-class ability that isnt a boring "Deal X more damage permanently" though. If there is a crit buff then Fire mages benefit immensely. If it is a versatility buff then tanks benefit. Even if it is something as simple as "press burron to deal more damage for 10 seconds" then whichever class can do the most damage in those 10 seconds benefit.

[Maxilian]

But the Dragonmaw wouldn't. Or even red skin.

Dragonmaw could easily be lore friendly as they joined the Horde in Cata (so no AU) and based on MOP Dragonmaw centric short story, we know that not all Dragonmaw members joined Garrosh.

Red skin Orcs are also part of the base Horde, though the only examples that we have are those that are stationed in the Dark Portal, so it can be debated.

[HateTrain]

Thinking about these covenants as "sub-classes" or "Prestige Classes", I can dig that. It works for me.

[FlubberPuddy]

Yeah, that's definitely sincere. A lot of people care about those "cool RPG elements."

In my opinion, that's the issue that has made current WoW feel so flat. You just load into whatever preset you looked up for every situation, and either the answer is the same for everyone, or it's purely cosmetic. Pretty lame, tbh. An RPG needs to force a player to consider how they want to approach the game as an individual, and covenants look like they're going to do that.

Agree, it's been an incredibly long time since there's been actual choices to be made other than what class you want to play.

[Laughingjack]

Agree, it's been an incredibly long time since there's been actual choices to be made other than what class you want to play.

I mean...no..?

You can pick and change your talents in every content and it helps ensure success in harder content... this is a bland dull uninspired choice that fell out of fashion over a decade ago.

[Vyomesh2]

for bfa we never got to really see alpha we had a super super super short beta with no time to iterate. This is a very different situation

No it really isn't. This system is shit and needs to be changed. That's all there is to it.

[FlubberPuddy]

That is true for literally every single non-class ability that isnt a boring "Deal X more damage permanently" though. If there is a crit buff then Fire mages benefit immensely. If it is a versatility buff then tanks benefit. Even if it is something as simple as "press burron to deal more damage for 10 seconds" then whichever class can do the most damage in those 10 seconds benefit.

Yeah but that's my point. These soulbinds are attached to different covenants from the covenant abilities that synergize better for them. Like Radiant Spark is immense burst for Mages but there are clearly soulbinds from other covenants that synergize much better with Radiant Spark the Kyrian ability.

So you already can't line it all up perfectly yet people think switchable covenant abilities will solve that. No it wont, because soulbind specific traits and we already know there's covenant specific legendaries, that can effects akin to previous tier sets, also play a large factor.

Don't see people agitating for making the Soulbinds from every covenant available tho, which is ironic.

- - - Updated - - -

I mean...no..?

You can pick and change your talents in every content and it helps ensure success in harder content... this is a bland dull uninspired choice that fell out of fashion over a decade ago.

Can you change from a Mage to a Paladin on the fly on the same character? That's what I'm saying about making an actual choice other than the class you play.

Your post doesn't make sense. Switching talents to suit the content is a bland dull uninspired choice, yes. I wasn't even talking about talents.

[HailToTheKing]

It's my birthday. Drop Revendreth pls.