9.0 General Discussion

[DemonDays]

I can understand getting bored of the wheel, but I find that even at its worst WoW's gameplay is leagues above most schlock found in modern gaming.

Eh I'm mostly just spamming Dota 2 whilst replaying Final Fantasy games at the moment. Waiting for Cyberpunk 2077.

Unsubscribed as soon as Heroic Nzoth was down. The gameplay just isn't fulfilling anymore. The loop used to make you kinda forget you were on the hamster wheel.


Todays post about changes for Shaman etc gives me slight hope.

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And it mostly proved one thing: People don't give a crap about world PvP and any attempt to rejuvenate it is a waste of effort.

Ah your typical hypocritical huth again.

When it's something you don't care about it's all "People" and you're allowed to generalize and clearly no one gives a shit.

But when you're licking boots and someone dares criticize its "REEEEE subjective opinion REEEEE".




Warmode is a joke for two reasons.

1.) Blizzard put zero effort into it.
2.) Blizzards sharding tech is an absolute joke. Easily manipulated. Hasn't been fixed or improved, at all.

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That's part of why you can never get it to be anything meaningful. Of course, those asking for world PvP really just want to dominate others, not actually have any kind of real competition.

Ahhh generalizing, again. Cool beans.

That's just like, your subjective opinion; man.

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Their initial instinct is to NERF good abilities rather than BUFF weak abilities.


No one should care about a mode like World PvP where its pretty much 'who's got the most live bodies in the shard atm'.

Case in point: Demonic for Havoc DH. They'd rather nerf it than improve the other two garbage options on that row.

[Sondrelk]

Lot of positive class changes. The fact that they posted so much makes me think there is hope for other classes. If they are working on mages and locks then I'm positive something will be done with shadow priests. They just haven't said anything yet because they are still working on it and it's probably a big change.

What specs really need a total overhaul at this point? All I can think of is survival hunter, shadow priest, demonology warlock, and maybe boomkin if it still sucks. The only one I'm sure they have to do something with is shadow priest. It's just terrible.

People complain about mm hunter but I don't think it's bad. It's kinda fun, but I would remove the rapid shot move. Can't remember name. Doesn't feel very good for a patient sniper to be a machine gun.

Fire mages seem decent with the Phoenix flames change.

Demo lock is fun, but the ramp up time is terrible. Idk what the solution is.

Survival is just bland. I wish they would totally rework it, but at least it functions properly unlike shadow or fire mages before the recent change.

Overall classes look better than BFA. So it's a step in the right direction, but I just wish they would bring back MoP classes.

For hunters I would say only BM is close to being in a great spot, having a good rotation and really just needing to de-emphasize the hunter in favor of the pet, as currently Beast Masters really only need the pet for AoE and Kill Command.

MM suffers from the same problem it has been suffering from for the last 3 expansions at least. Terrible talents. Usually having a single talent be better in all situations, and leaving the other 2 in the dust. Legion even had the first row where they blatantly stated that they figured Lone Wolf was a better fit for MM, so they overtuned it so you would always choose it.
In BfA they at least nailed the class fantasy, just not so much the rotation, with it struggling ot incorporate any new abilities, which makes most of the talents pointless.
Not to mention Rapid Fire, which takes up far too much space in the rotation, and not even feeling all that great to use.

Survival is of course the odd one out. I guess saying it is bland is fitting, because it suffers from some serious identity issues.
Are they a gadgeteer genuis who uses all the resources at their disposal? A crazed lunatic waving a spear around? Or a survivalist who prefers using a spear?
It cannot really be all 3 in the same rotation. If they want it to be a gadgeteer genius then they need to put more emphasis on the traps. If they want it to be more of a crazed lunatic then they need to deemphasize the bombs and such. And if they want it to be a survivalist then they need far more interplay between the traps and the spear.
It should probably also have far more CC options, honestly. Camouflage being one that is still screaming to be put into the base toolkit.
Also still not sure why they didnt just remake the old Survival rotation into Melee, it was hardly the kind that needed to be ranged to cover its flaws like Mage or Warlock.

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Regarding the talent power thing, I would say that nerfing a talent should only be used when it is in the middle or beginning of a patch as a band-aid fix, and then later look more intently at the talent row for the next major patch. Slapping on that band-aid and leaving it for the rest of the expansion and possibly even longer is pretty shitty.

[Sondrelk]

Hunter in general just screams "revamp me!" imo.

What are the major archetypes people are fond of when it comes to hunters in Warcraft?

- The Ranger type with a cloak and bow, moving stealthily and relying on ranged damage. This one has several subcategories, such as Dark Ranger.
- The traditional hunter who commands beasts, using rifles or bows to attack the enemy at a distance while the pet tanks.
- The savage wielding hatchets, hunting with or without its pet, stalking prey among the trees, being an expert tracker and so on.

They are nearly there in terms of class fantasy with the three current specs. The biggest issues, I'd say, are:

- Marksman needs to give the option to lean more into the ranger/nature aspect of it all, with stealth, aimed shots, being agile and nimble and so on. No silly rapid shots, no bloody cobras or serpents or stuff like that. There can be talent choices that are more AoE-oriented, but it shouldn't be forced into the playstyle.

- BM needs to let you be a trapper, an expert rifleman or archer, and have a pet for a best friend. Lean more into the pet gameplay, make it fairly tactical with traps, pet heals, and other tools that let you support your pet all the while you keep firing away at a distance. Tone down silly stuff like snakes and crap.

- Survival should be a range/melee hybrid, allowing you to use hatchets and other melee weapons that you may throw at your enemy. The pet is optional and there could be cool synergies between you as you prowl the wilderness. Traps are a thing, but it should be a lot less about explosives and the like and much more about poison, sharpened branches and stuff in general. It should feel like you're one with nature, an expect survivalist who sets up camp wherever you go and lives off the land.

I would say that MM also has the distinct niche of the "sniper" archetype, which is what I think Blizzard is trying to capture.
Problem is they are also simultaneously trying to capture the "Fantasy Archer" archetype, as seen through Volley, Rapid Fire and to an extent Chimaera Shot. And you cannot really combine the two in a satisfactory way. The ideal situation in this case would probably be to have a diverse Talent pool to allow you to spec into either or both.

[Sondrelk]

Sniper archetype should just be moved to subtlety imo and make one of the rogue specs ranged. Marksmanship should be all about Archery.

Sniping is a subset of being a great marksman though. And the idea that your hunter is just that good that he can easily kill enemies with a single well-placed shot is pretty good class fantasy.
Being able to use that well-placed shot quickly is where it moves into the realm of fantasy, reaching Legolas levels of OP where you are less a good archer and more a vehicle for headshots and insane feats.
The Sniper angle isnt terribly well executed in gameplay, is the problem. Currently you just use Aimed Shot on its own. Whereas a far better way to go at it would be to have several buffs from different abilities that eventually make your Aimed Shot hit harder than before. We had that kind of gameplay in Uldir, and I personally loved the idea of your rotation building up to a 100k guaranteed crit. I just wish we got more abilities that played to those strengths instead of Blizzard removing it.

And again, the biggest problem I see with MM is that Rapid Fire is not really that good for hte class. It takes up so muhc space in the rotation, and prevents the spec from branching out into other playstyles.
If you replaced it with Chimaera shot, and then focused more on the idea that you add different buffs to Aimed Shot to make it truly feel like an impactful enough ability to warrant teh hardcast then I believe we would be getting close to the ideal MM spec.

And of course, better talents to allow customization, and not hte same thing as previously where you always, always pick the passive ability because the others are not worth using at all.

[Captain Marvel]

If you're not interested in PvP then why bother having War Mode on? I still don't get this mentality.

Because they look huge qol and other class defining talents behind the shitty warmed system. Also, if these hubs are part of any pve content turning off war mode would do shit. I was fooling around leveling in Elwynn Forest last night and every other quest giver was dead and there were crowds of low levels waiting for them to respawn.

[Cosmic Janitor]

And again, the biggest problem I see with MM is that Rapid Fire is not really that good for hte class. It takes up so muhc space in the rotation, and prevents the spec from branching out into other playstyles.
If you replaced it with Chimaera shot, and then focused more on the idea that you add different buffs to Aimed Shot to make it truly feel like an impactful enough ability to warrant teh hardcast then I believe we would be getting close to the ideal MM spec.

And of course, better talents to allow customization, and not hte same thing as previously where you always, always pick the passive ability because the others are not worth using at all.

My issue with the class fantasy is mostly that it tries to do the non sniper stuff in unfullfilling ways. Rapid fire doesn't feel like fantasy ability, it feels like I'm ditching my bow and start using a goblin gatling gun for some reason. Volley behaves like a magical ability, but doesn't have the flavor of one. The sniper fantasy is also considerably hamstrung by the underlying mechanics. While leveling for example aimed shot does feel like a sniper ability, but obviously well placed one shots can't work in group content. The whole rotation feels nonsensical though, between arcane shot, aimed shot and rapid fire it's a wild hodepodge of nonsense.

[Sondrelk]

My issue with the class fantasy is mostly that it tries to do the non sniper stuff in unfullfilling ways. Rapid fire doesn't feel like fantasy ability, it feels like I'm ditching my bow and start using a goblin gatling gun for some reason. Volley behaves like a magical ability, but doesn't have the flavor of one. The sniper fantasy is also considerably hamstrung by the underlying mechanics. While leveling for example aimed shot does feel like a sniper ability, but obviously well placed one shots can't work in group content. The whole rotation feels nonsensical though, between arcane shot, aimed shot and rapid fire it's a wild hodepodge of nonsense.

Honestly, Rapid Fires biggest weakness is how often you cast it. Volley at least will happen infrequently enough that you can disregard the lore inconsistencies. And even then you can just imagine that you are throwing a fistful of arrows in the air and letting them rain down. With Rapid Fire you both have to accept that you are somehow physically capable of drawing the bow 10 times in 2 seconds, as well as accept that you somehow always hit. Not to mention it looking stupid.

The Sniper thing I can accept being hamstrung by group content because that is true of all classes. I jsut want the rotation to at least pretend like that is how it is supposed to work.
As I mentioned, in Uldir we had the steady shot buff playstyle that gave guaranteed crits. It was pretty shoddy in the grand scheme of things, but at least it felt like a playstyle with some purpose behind it. Currently we only cast Aimed Shot because it does lots of damage, not because anything in our rotation should make us think that we should really look forward to using it. Like what Destro Warlocks have with Chaos Bolt, or Fire Mages have with instacast Pyroblasts.

[Vasoka]

Date reveal for the canceled event tonight??

[tristannarutofan]

Oh man, I didn’t even think about that

Like that was the point of shimmer. It doesn’t break roots but you get 2 charges and can use it during casting. But yeah, instead of nerfing shimmer, they could have made the other talents on that row better. But that’s true, their first instinct was to nerf

And then the Alexstrasza’s fury thing. But that’s a whole other kettle of fish in regards to WHY DOES MY MAGE WANT TO BE IN MELEE TO BE BETTER

That makes NO damn sense. Arcane blast should be a targeted spell with a cast time. Like...I understand abilities for getting away but dragons breath shouldn’t be part of my rotation. It should be the fire equivalent of frost nova. Instead of rooting, it disorients and I can run like a coward

Of course the instinct is to nerf. They have to worry about class balance too. If a class is near balanced and then they buff competing talents to line up with a great talent then thats just an overall class buff. Your feedback has to consider class balance too.

And idk what u r talking about with alex fury.
Its a talent so you dont HAVE to have it
If its so powerful as to be rotational they can just fix that
Its OBVIOUS the intent here is to give the mage burst after their cc, something good for pvp and pve.
Its nice to have options, if threat isnt an issue its nice to have the option to blink to melee give a strong aoe and get some burst
The most iconic wizard, gandalf fought with a sword
Literally arcane mages main aoe has been melee range since classic
There is nothing atopping ranged classes from fighting at melee range its just convenient

If u cant at least guess at the intent of a change then it means YOU are missing something. I guarantee the devs know more about the game than u. So if u cant understand something thats either a numbers/tuning issue or u are missing something.

P.s. rune of power rocks. Casting a localaized spell that lets me do 40 % more dmg is cool. How tf is "magic runes" not class fantasy

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Because they look huge qol and other class defining talents behind the shitty warmed system. Also, if these hubs are part of any pve content turning off war mode would do shit. I was fooling around leveling in Elwynn Forest last night and every other quest giver was dead and there were crowds of low levels waiting for them to respawn.

The point of warmode is to engage in a pvp world. If u are engaging in pvp when u dont want to just cus u get an extra ability then thats your fault.

And ppl in warmode are on a different shard, so those ppl wouldnt be dead, no

[plz delete account]

I fixed it.

I'm fairly certain the term "epic" is only used sarcastically now

[Valysar]

So. Many. People. Connected in the alpha right now.
We are 9 allys.
Time to invite more players I think

Btw, monk Night Fae ability :

The drawing is super random, sometimes it's just a simple line, sometimes it's a wonderful tree

[Makabreska]

Btw, monk Night Fae ability :

Pretty much all those Covenant abilities are so damn gorgeous. I don't know what type of drugs Blizz art team has been using, but let's hope their livers wont give up too fast!

[infinitemeridian]

Most of the classes haven’t received any kind of significant permanent change since Cata. It’s starting to show

Part of the issue is that the classes kept getting pruned and, more recently, because we keep borrowing powers meaning the base class has to be changed to compensate for that.

But to be honest, Blizz hasn’t had a good history of listening to feedback. Case in point, BfA. An even better example: Rune of Power

I can go on for days about how awful Rune of Power is. You can ask anyone who mains a mage and they’ll tell you it’s one of the worst things that’s ever happened to the class. Every expansion, there’s pages upon pages of people saying “get rid of it” but here’s the thing: the other two abilities aren’t worth using outside of certain fights. So most mages are using Rune of Power because, as a pure dps class, I don’t get the option of utility vs damage. I get the option of “what’s going to get me the biggest dick”

But. Here’s. The. Thing. People have been saying since MoP that Rune of Power sucks. It’s not fun, it’s clunky as hell. Don’t get me wrong, they’ve made improvements to it but it’s still not fun to use and really doesn’t even fit into the mage class fantasy they keep going on about

Yet it’s still here. And they’ll probably never get rid of it. Now...seeing the Phoenix flame change and shimmer going back to being pretty good again, okay. Maybe they’ll listen this time but...we’ll see

Edit: I had an original point to this but kind of ended up ranting about RoP but basically yeah, classes haven’t received any kind of revamp outside of borrowed abilities for a while

Edit 2: fuck rune of power

Literally 90% of the specs got a complete rework in Legion, wtf are you talking about? Most of us don't want a completely new spec / class every expac. The specs right now, bar a few exceptions, are fine. They have a nice groundwork that lets Blizz build borrowed power systems on to spice them up every expac.

[Raetary]

Do we have the spell effect of the priest night fae ability or is it still the ugly PH sparkle effect that looks like it's from pre-cata?

[Vasoka]

Place your bets about tonight!

[Dreen]

So. Many. People. Connected in the alpha right now.
We are 9 allys.
Time to invite more players I think

well beta is probably coming so no reason to invite players for alpha anymore, just gotta wait for the reveal stream my bet

[EbaumsTipster]

well beta is probably coming so no reason to invite players for alpha anymore, just gotta wait for the reveal stream my bet

Would they open beta without a zone though? Two if you count the Maw.

[Valysar]

Do we have the spell effect of the priest night fae ability or is it still the ugly PH sparkle effect that looks like it's from pre-cata?

It's in. I'll try to GIF it (dunno how it was before, sorry :P)

[Raetary]

It's in. I'll try to GIF it (dunno how it was before, sorry :P)

It's gorgeous.

They went all in with the night fae spell effects.

[Vasoka]

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/ne...olord-covenant

Oh boy.