9.0 General Discussion

[Krakan]

That sounds like a rather defeatist attitude. All content gets boring if you keep playing it for long enough.
However, this is by no means something that should be understood as attempting to make new content being pointless. Torghast is already leaps and bounds more interesting than Islands, which in turn was if nothing else, more replayable than Mage towers. Torghast might end up bombing terribly after the initial hype wears off like what happened with Islands, but it will hopefully lead to Blizzard gathering data on what makes that system fun and rewarding, and the next iteration will most likely be better than the previous.

On the flipside, if Blizzard just scrapped it in favor of 2 or more extra dungeons then there is little to learn. Dungeons are already about as polished as they can get, barring massive shakeups to the core formula, same with raids. Torghast, and its predecessor expansion asides are more fascinating because it is in essence Blizzard attempting to create one more avenue of endgame content.
We have PvP in Arenas, Battlegrounds and even War Mode. There is outdoor content in the form of World Quests and regular endgame quests. There is instanced content like Dungeons and M+, and raids of varying difficulties. And occasionally there are events.
However, Torghast, as well as Islands, Warfronts, Mage Tower and the like are all attempts at further filling the endgame with more content. And with each iteration we get something better in one way or the other. And with enough iterations we might evetually end up with something like Dungeons or Raids, content which will always be in an expansion, and which gets small refinements each new expansion.

What makes them more interesting then islands?

Islands had crazy power ups to though in a less random nature... my problem is I'm a old hand. I dissect what it is I am looking at game play wise and then evaluate it. The tower doesn't have many interesting enemies and few that pose any kind of threat unless you almost purposely weaken yourself by choosing a poor build.

It lacks something... I really don't see it being much more popular then visions beyond it being easier or at least it appears to be easier so far on beta.

[DemonDays]

1. Everything get's boring after a while

2. Most of them just spams it on Alpha. So ye, no shit they are getting bored.

The Alpha has been out for a few months.

This piece of content has to last 2 years.

[Vakir]

There's also the issue of tilesets and enemy types. It looks the same. Every room looks the same.

Yeah, this is where I think there's a significant flaw thus far. The concept is good, as I've explained why, but the themeing may have been the wrong way to do it. They've effectively locked themselves into only being able to have a handful of aesthetic options, even if they mix up the types of tortures you're hitting in various cell blocks, because it's the Jailer's tower. It means that you're kinda doomed to just fighting undead pretty much no matter what. They said they want to iterate patch to patch, but how exactly do you have enough variety in tileset if it's a Hell tower?

Torghast just seems like the only new thing we're getting. All their eggs in one basket. Then there's the issue of Legendaries coming from it - so it will 100% be time-gated.

This is one thing it sounds like they soft-fixed. The time-gating for legendary reagents will be based around running "cell blocks" (for the love of god, don't make them fixed like Visions), but you can infinitely run the procedural version (The something-or-other Halls) for the fun of it and/or cosmetic rewards.

What makes them more interesting then islands?

Islands had crazy power ups to though in a less random nature... my problem is I'm a old hand. I dissect what it is I am looking at game play wise and then evaluate it. The tower doesn't have many interesting enemies and few that pose any kind of threat unless you almost purposely weaken yourself by choosing a poor build.

It lacks something... I really don't see it being much more popular then visions beyond it being easier or at least it appears to be easier so far on beta.

Anyone who describes themselves as an old hand might have an ego... In any case, if there's no upper limit on difficulty, I think it's a bit early to say that there's a lack of challenge and there's no interesting enemy types, since mechanics can always look boring if they're not tuned to be difficult.

You also can't really choose a poor build if anima powers are randomized.

[Krakan]

Yeah, this is where I think there's a significant flaw thus far. The concept is good, as I've explained why, but the themeing may have been the wrong way to do it. They've effectively locked themselves into only being able to have a handful of aesthetic options, even if they mix up the types of tortures you're hitting in various cell blocks, because it's the Jailer's tower. It means that you're kinda doomed to just fighting undead pretty much no matter what. They said they want to iterate patch to patch, but how exactly do you have enough variety in tileset if it's a Hell tower?



This is one thing it sounds like they soft-fixed. The time-gating for legendary reagents will be based around running "cell blocks" (for the love of god, don't make them fixed like Visions), but you can infinitely run the procedural version (The something-or-other Halls) for the fun of it and/or cosmetic rewards.



Anyone who describes themselves as an old hand might have an ego... In any case, if there's no upper limit on difficulty, I think it's a bit early to say that there's a lack of challenge and there's no interesting enemy types, since mechanics can always look boring if they're not tuned to be difficult.

You also can't really choose a poor build if anima powers are randomized.

You pick out of a few it isnt pure rng and the trials in wod were limitless difficulty as well till you just stopped caring...

[Sondrelk]

What makes them more interesting then islands?

Islands had crazy power ups to though in a less random nature... my problem is I'm a old hand. I dissect what it is I am looking at game play wise and then evaluate it. The tower doesn't have many interesting enemies and few that pose any kind of threat unless you almost purposely weaken yourself by choosing a poor build.

It lacks something... I really don't see it being much more popular then visions beyond it being easier or at least it appears to be easier so far on beta.

They are more interesting than Islands in the sense that they are better improvements on the Roguelike aspect that Islands attempted to capture.
There are better variety in what you fight against, better powerups and more freedom in what group size you want, even down to being able to do it solo if you so wish.

In Islands you could get overpowered abilities, but it was usually a single great ability, or some classes like Unholy being able to completely dominate because their toolkit was perfect for it.
In Torghast however OP builds are just that, builds. Not singular amazing abilities like the Island nuke, or dragon breath or what have you. Becoming OP is still possible, but that is true for all roguelikes of this model. It doesnt take much in say, Binding of Isaac to get a rlatively small amount of powerups that completely breaks the game, but that is what makes it fun. Because most of the time you won't get those combinations, and will have to make something of the other abilities you have.

Now obviously, this is all down to how many powerups there are, and looking at the list there is definitely not enough to make it that random, more likely you will get OP builds if you keep going long enough, but the important point is that it is still somewhat random. You coudl get lucky in the first 2 powerups, or you could only get it right before the final boss, which is better in that sense than Islands, where your ability to be OP was limited to the vendor at the beginning with a weekly lockout, what had spawned on the island initially, or what spawns at the midpoint. Which makes each island fairly simplistic.

Besides, what truly makes it interesting is that it is a refinement on the Roguelike aspect. And while it isnt perfect, it is a fair improvement on the previous attempt at a roguelike, which if popular will continue to be improved upon in the rest of the expansion, and if a continued hit might get carried over into the next expansion, to continue improving, until it becomes something you expect to see in every expansion, and which you regard on the same level as Dungeons or Battlegrounds or what have you.

[Makabreska]

The Alpha has been out for a few months.

This piece of content has to last 2 years.

1. Yes, and they kept spamming it w/o limits during those first few months.

2. It will be expanded upon.

[Vakir]

You pick out of a few it isnt pure rng and the trials in wod were limitless difficulty as well till you just stopped caring...

2-3 options out of dozens per cell is still pretty significant RNG. Picking "the best one" isn't a problem with the system, it's a function of player choice and playing the meta.

Trials in WoD had no actual reward system in place for repeating and the content from run to run was static. You're comparing apples and rocks. Again, the core of an MMO is to have some set of decisions to upgrade your character to get stronger to approach more difficult content for some kind of reward system.

A roguelike is just one form of gameplay that exists and is being adapted into an MMO space. It'd be great if there was more, and SL absolutely feels feature-lite. But it certainly feels like a better step forward than simply business as usual or how other failed features (Islands, Warfronts) tested.

[Vakir]

So, legit question: who thinks there's a chance the Shadowlands update event on Wednesday is meant for Blizzard to announce that Shadowlands is being delayed to 2021?

- Not a lot of content on the Alpha so far apart from zones and Torghast.

I mean, this is part of what we're talking about above - this first bullet point may not be evidence of much, since thus far, the expansion simply is just new zones and Torghast, lol.

No real systems seem problematic or shining examples of quality, either. (Except for, you know, Covenant abilities needing to be talents) They're pretty mum in terms of how they'll play out. They're probably playing a lot of this stuff to the chest just out of fear of backlash like when they overpromised and underdelivered with things like Warlords.

[DemonDays]

What makes them more interesting then islands?

Islands had crazy power ups to though in a less random nature... my problem is I'm a old hand. I dissect what it is I am looking at game play wise and then evaluate it. The tower doesn't have many interesting enemies and few that pose any kind of threat unless you almost purposely weaken yourself by choosing a poor build.

It lacks something... I really don't see it being much more popular then visions beyond it being easier or at least it appears to be easier so far on beta.

It seems to be a combination of Islands and Visions....

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I mean, this is part of what we're talking about above - this first bullet point may not be evidence of much, since thus far, the expansion simply is just new zones and Torghast, lol.

No real systems seem problematic or shining examples of quality, either. (Except for, you know, Covenant abilities needing to be talents) They're pretty mum in terms of how they'll play out. They're probably playing a lot of this stuff to the chest just out of fear of backlash like when they overpromised and underdelivered with things like Warlords.

It needs to be delayed. We've seen them respond to feedback on various specs.

This needs to be done for EVERY spec. Over half the specs on Alpha have glaring issues and there are still way too many "mandatory" talents.

[Vakir]

It seems to be a combination of Islands and Visions....

Just a bit reductive, discussed above. On a surface level, anything can look like X or Y. A roguelike is a roguelike. Roguelikes feel like a natural fit for WoW and long-term, engaging content. Whether they capture that spirit correctly is another story.

It needs to be delayed. We've seen them respond to feedback on various specs.

This needs to be done for EVERY spec. Over half the specs on Alpha have glaring issues and there are still way too many "mandatory" talents.

Can't disagree there. The sad thing is, a lot of those mandatory talents being phased out are going to see pushback because many of them, at least for some specs, probably need to see nerfs before other talents can be attractive unless they're outright busted. A lot of people prefer certain playstyles right now for specs that are locked in because those same talents are too good to change from - or the other way around (FUCK Breath of Sindragosa).

[Yarathir]

Ug yall need ti stop reading and stop listening. "Its pitch black" doesnt mean "its 100% black and i cant see anything" it means "its way to dark for me to enjoy this, due to how difficult it os to make out details"

I can see fine in that pic too but i have near perfect vision amd ppl shouldnt have to strain their eyes to play the game

No, pitch black means pitch black. Jesus Christ.

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You've had three different people tell you it's nearly pitch black out of six or seven people.
You've made a bad design choice, don't pin it on me.

I mean, I've got it pulled up on my second monitor which is a piece of shit even with brightness at 100% and it's no where near pitch black for me.

no where near pitch black on my monitor and i don't even have brightness on 100%

Same here. It's dark, but it's meant to be. Nowhere near pitch black.

Ok then 10ch

[Sondrelk]

Just a bit reductive, discussed above. On a surface level, anything can look like X or Y. A roguelike is a roguelike. Roguelikes feel like a natural fit for WoW and long-term, engaging content. Whether they capture that spirit correctly is another story.



Can't disagree there. The sad thing is, a lot of those mandatory talents being phased out are going to see pushback because many of them, at least for some specs, probably need to see nerfs before other talents can be attractive unless they're outright busted. A lot of people prefer certain playstyles right now for specs that are locked in because those same talents are too good to change from - or the other way around (FUCK Breath of Sindragosa).

Tuning is always the last thing on the agenda for the beta though. What is pressing now is more broader changes to talents as a whole, or even base abilities of certain specs.
Talents are rarely, if ever balanced at this point, so I wouldn't focus too much in that.

[Yarathir]

Tuning is always the last thing on the agenda for the beta though. What is pressing now is more broader changes to talents as a whole, or even base abilities of certain specs.
Talents are rarely, if ever balanced at this point, so I wouldn't focus too much in that.

I mean, it's good to be vigilant, I guess, otherwise you might end up with specs where you say it's just alpha but they more or less end up that way in retail and then they can't be changed enough before a new patch drops or at worst a new expansion.

[Sondrelk]

I mean, it's good to be vigilant, I guess, otherwise you might end up with specs where you say it's just alpha but they more or less end up that way in retail and then they can't be changed enough before a new patch drops or at worst a new expansion.

That is kinda my point. Tuning is always possible, broken abilities are not, so better to focus on the broader strokes of how an ability functions instead of the smaller details of tuning.

[DemonDays]

Tuning is always the last thing on the agenda for the beta though. What is pressing now is more broader changes to talents as a whole, or even base abilities of certain specs.
Talents are rarely, if ever balanced at this point, so I wouldn't focus too much in that.

Havoc DH.

How do you make someone take anything other than Demonic on the last row? Even if you make the other 2 choices 15% better DPS wise, people will still pick Demonic.

Why? Because it feels like it should be baseline.


BECAUSE IT SHOULD BE BASELINE.


That's the case for many rows for MANY specs.


They didn't do a single balancing pass on Talents for 2+ years. That should tell you how much they care.

[Yarathir]

That is kinda my point. Tuning is always possible, broken abilities are not, so better to focus on the broader strokes of how an ability functions instead of the smaller details of tuning.

Yeah, I would agree on that.

Hope we don't get a BfA classes debacle again, but I feel like it's inevitable.

[razorpax]

So are we all in agreement half of the thread are blind and beta hits this week

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Yeah, I would agree on that.

Hope we don't get a BfA classes debacle again, but I feel like it's inevitable.

It will be worse

As a monk the changes are minimal and dead talents are untouched

The covenant abilities are either entirely lack luster or work against the design of the class

Venthyr ability suffers from rng like the night fae Druid ability where one of 3 types of monks will be summoned instead of based on your spec.

Soulbinds do nothing in terms of helping people who have concerns for the covenant system because dress up the kyrian steward all you want it can’t compete with the others especially the night fae one that’s on top of an extra 15% damage during the execute phase


They also say conduits are part of the system so we need to wait for them....the ones we have are nothing more than either a Damage increase or something that doesn’t really change your play which makes them boring like most azerite gear

Legendaries are the only saving grace and that’s because it seems like each class has at least two that synergize...like tier did

I don’t want BfA 2.0 where it’s good content but shit systems but it looks like blizzard is once again being stubborn bastards that will try and justify bad design until months after launch.....again

I’m still naive enough to think shadows going to be fixed

[Santandame]

Many high end streamers are already starting to say Torghast gets boring after a while.

A ''high end'' streamer has no more an expert or valuable an opinion than me, you, or anyone else who plays this game.

Their opinion is totally subjective and doesn't apply to everyone else.

[huth]

No, pitch black means pitch black. Jesus Christ.

Ok then 10ch

And the other three told you it's pitch black. When half the people can't see shit, it's to dark to be playable.

[MadamSerenity]

The biggest thing you all are forgetting about Torghast is that it doesn't have any of the rewards structure in yet. There is no legendaries or cosmetics tied to it yet. With nothing to chase, it is understandable that it has become "boring" to some streamers.