9.0 General Discussion

[Aeluron Lightsong]

https://mobile.twitter.com/HamletEJ/...84212754968576

Ahh ok, duh. If she thinks the way feedback gets them isn't working....well try something else.

[Toybox]

Ahh ok, duh. If she thinks the way feedback gets them isn't working....well try something else.

I don't know what there is to try. We know from recent comments that they're not interested in video feedback, & they don't do anything to suggest they read the beta class feedback posts, either.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I don't know what there is to try. We know from recent comments that they're not interested in video feedback, & they don't do anything to suggest they read the beta class feedback posts, either.

I hear you but I think they aren't just ignoring it or not reading it at all. There was this theory Bellular had about Systems having more hold or budget on the game then class designers. I have nothing to support but that MIGHT showed the slow class design(Or at least the no change).

[Kereberus]

I still don't understand this drama.

[Revamp Man]

Ahh ok, duh. If she thinks the way feedback gets them isn't working....well try something else.

so from the stuff mag is tweeting im wondering if the devs on those forums being very dismissive (a tweet about how the water change has been in the SL beta since back in alpha and therefore its not an actual issue) are the same from the BfA instances of "hey we know we changed the m+ cache weeks before launch but nobody complained then so youre wrong if youre angry" which led to residuum

or the one telling players in a thread about TF that they only had a problem with it because others are getting gear...i am not even surprised lol

we keep getting told communication is going to be a big focus of theirs and they want to do better and over the last 6 years of hearing it the only thing we have been getting is this
blizz: heres a boat
players: the boat has a hole in it so it will sink
blizz: it wont sink you are wrong and that feedback isnt useful
*boat sinks*
blizz: we agree with your feedback

- - - Updated - - -

I still don't understand this drama.

systems dev says masses having access to theorycrafting makes a lot of feedback meaningless (they tried using bigger words and circle speak)

theorycrafter that had access to private theorycraft forums talked abouthow it started out great and we saw the results in MoP and WoD design
then in legion the feedback broke down
now theres theorycrafting forums and an influencer discord
there are multiple instances of the devs posting on the forums saying things like "top end players are the problem because they figure out the best talents and then discords and website tell players what the best choice is and it becomes socially acceptable to choose the best choice only" and also "the water change ahs been in since alpha so being upset doesnt make sense" along with other dismissive and condescending posts making the players, who spend their time to help make the game better for 0 compensation and just because they like it, feel like shit.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

so from the stuff mag is tweeting im wondering if the devs on those forums being very dismissive (a tweet about how the water change has been in the SL beta since back in alpha and therefore its not an actual issue) are the same from the BfA instances of "hey we know we changed the m+ cache weeks before launch but nobody complained then so youre wrong if youre angry" which led to residuum

or the one telling players in a thread about TF that they only had a problem with it because others are getting gear...i am not even surprised lol

we keep getting told communication is going to be a big focus of theirs and they want to do better and over the last 6 years of hearing it the only thing we have been getting is this
blizz: heres a boat
players: the boat has a hole in it so it will sink
blizz: it wont sink you are wrong and that feedback isnt useful
*boat sinks*
blizz: we agree with your feedback

She's the system designer so... in theory she would be doing a lot of the system work and I don't know those blue posts are the same person or not. Whoever they are or whatever is going on, I don't think its good to be rude in this regard. Its just more ammo even if I understand that sometimes they take a lot. Thats my personal feelings on it. I'm not sure the feelings of whats her name(The system designer lady or w/e) is how everyone on the wow team feels.

the devs

There's a few individuals within the team doing this. I don't think we should link the whole team for one person's comments. I don't think we can apply those blue posts to every single wow dev.

[Hitei]

we keep getting told communication is going to be a big focus of theirs and they want to do better and over the last 6 years of hearing it the only thing we have been getting is this
blizz: heres a boat
youtuber: this boat has sails, I don't like sails
small handful of players: <youtuber> said the new boat has sails. Everyone hates sails! We want an engine!
blizz: Sails still make the boat go forward, they are certainly slower and dependent on the wind, but they are much more rewarding to use, don't make an ugly sound and are healthier for the environment
*boat works exactly as above*
small handful of players: I WANT AN ENGINE, SAILS ARE SHIT. NO ONE CAN USE A BOAT WITH SAILS!! BOATING IS DEAD.
blizz: Jesus Christ, fine, We've added a small engine, are you happy?
small handful of players: HAH, I KNEW YOU WERE LYING, SAILS CAN'T MAKE A BOAT GO FORWARD! LISTEN NEXT TIME!

Fixed that for you.

[Toybox]

I hear you but I think they aren't just ignoring it or not reading it at all. There was this theory Bellular had about Systems having more hold or budget on the game then class designers. I have nothing to support but that MIGHT showed the slow class design(Or at least the no change).

It's a weird one I guess. They're obviously listening enough to change the way certain things work, but it feels like one step forward two steps back in many cases. Using Warrior as an example again as it's what I'm most comfortable with, a hell of a lot of us were dissatisfied with Deep Wounds as a mechanic. Having 30-50% of your damage coming from bleeds while Mortal Strike hits like a noodle isn't the Warrior fantasy, and seeing Blizzard agree with that & change it for Shadowlands really is nice to see.

... But then they change talents in ways that make little to no sense, and the community is left feeling more frustrated than before. Collateral damage is a good example, as it went from something that was situationally impactful to something mechanically underwhelming (& not just because of numbers, either)... And now Cleave replaces Sweeping Strikes? Why? Arms had a very specific niche where it could excel, & that just feels diminished somewhat by 9.0. This is all from one tier of talents, by the way At least they made Warbreaker/CS apply deep wounds, which was a nice touch & long overdue!

Whatever the case, the answer isn't throwing a fit, & it definitely isn't sending threatening messages to Blizzard employees who are trying their best to put a great game out there. Still, I sometimes have to question if some of these class designers actually play the class they're designing at any sort of respectable level. I know people will claim there's a bigger picture players might not see, & that everyone obviously just wants their class to be broken - Maybe that's true to some extent, but really, I just want it to be fun again.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

It's a weird one I guess. They're obviously listening enough to change the way certain things work, but it feels like one step forward two steps back in many cases. Using Warrior as an example again as it's what I'm most comfortable with, a hell of a lot of us were dissatisfied with Deep Wounds as a mechanic. Having 30-50% of your damage coming from bleeds while Mortal Strike hits like a noodle isn't the Warrior fantasy, and seeing Blizzard agree with that & change it for Shadowlands really is nice to see.

I don't really mind bleed mechanics persay but how it was in BFA was...kinda silly and I don't have the biggest love for deep wounds. If there was anything I'd want is make the class slightly more fluid then it is now and less focus on auto attacks for rage(Sorry but thats how I feel). Not as fast as Fury obviously but I feel like thats not so much a big deal cause the archetype arms uses is using one two handed weapon and thats a different thing then arms.. I could go on but...yeah.


TLDR: There is a bigger picture but some individuals aren't helping either way(Both sides, don't be rude..please got bigger problems to worry about then each other)

[Lahis]

Is there anyone who is really surprised that the devs don't actually care about feedback?

It has been very clear for the past several expansions.

[Toybox]

I don't really mind bleed mechanics persay but how it was in BFA was...kinda silly and I don't have the biggest love for deep wounds. If there was anything I'd want is make the class slightly more fluid then it is now and less focus on auto attacks for rage(Sorry but thats how I feel). Not as fast as Fury obviously but I feel like thats not so much a big deal cause the archetype arms uses is using one two handed weapon and thats a different thing then arms.. I could go on but...yeah.


TLDR: There is a bigger picture but some individuals aren't helping either way(Both sides, don't be rude..please got bigger problems to worry about then each other)

All they have to do is make one auto attack give enough rage for Mortal Strike/Slam. That'd make everything feel so, so much better. Of course it'd have to be tweaked so we got slightly less rage from damage taken/other sources to balance it out, but the fluidity of the spec just shoots through the roof with that one little change.

I didn't actually see the Twitter thread by the way, I hear it's a bit of a nightmare. I saw the post by that one dev & got a bit confused as they, at the very least, don't really seem to acknowledge well-written user feedback, but that's about it... My morbid curiosity has gotten the better of me, so I'm going to have a look at the big brains at work

Is there anyone who is really surprised that the devs don't actually care about feedback?

It has been very clear for the past several expansions.

Not at all, really.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

There's that "They don't care about feedback" thats utter nonsense.

[therumblings]

Is there anyone who is really surprised that the devs don't actually care about feedback?

It has been very clear for the past several expansions.

Have to disagree on that. Blizzard did neglect feedback in the past, including Shadowlands, but they made a substantial effort in SL to listen to feedback and ended up making some pretty big changes because of it. Covenants are just the only thing they didn't budge on.

[Toybox]

There's that "They don't care about feedback" thats utter nonsense.

They care about hugely negative feedback that affects their gameplay systems, with some examples being the very negative response to Torghast getting a timer, & the idea that covenant abilities only work within the Shadowlands (both of which they backtracked on) - but as far as class design goes? I'm really not that sure. I'm reading through the responses to that twitter thread now, & I don't know if it's been curated or if the quality is just higher than expected, but I tend to agree with a lot of the responses.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

They care about hugely negative feedback that affects their gameplay systems, with some examples being the very negative response to Torghast getting a timer, & the idea that covenant abilities only work within the Shadowlands (both of which they backtracked on) - but as far as class design goes? I'm really not that sure. I'm reading through the responses to that twitter thread now, & I don't know if it's been curated or if the quality is just higher than expected, but I tend to agree with a lot of the responses.

Class design is also connected to covanents right now so... yeah they aren't budging.

[Toybox]

Class design is also connected to covanents right now so... yeah they aren't budging.

I'm very much over the covenant stuff at this point. I've been on the beta for 3/4 months now, & while the idea that not being able to play around with 3+3 rather cool abilities is a bit disappointing for someone who just likes playing this kinda game, I've kinda had my fun with them already. I'll play Condemn, enjoy the new execute animation, and that'll be that

[Revamp Man]

Fixed that for you.

ok real example

devs: azerite gear is a guaranteed drop in the m+ cache with a bonus chance at another piece of gear
*game launches*
players: hey the cache isnt giving us azerite gear
devs: we changed it 3 weeks before the beta went down and nobody complained so its not a problem
players: well it is a problem because that is the only way to get high ilvl azerite gear
devs: too bad so sad you just dont understand
*patch 9.1 residuum change*
devs: we agree with the feedback about the azerite gear from the cache

or titanforging
devs: with titanforging gear is always exciting
players: yeah but its also disappointing when you dont get the bonus.
devs: yeah but now you can always get an upgrade from every aspect of the game
players: yeah but its also mostly disappointing and getting a TF upgrade BiS trinket on an alt doesnt feel good
devs: you just dont like other players getting high ilvl gear
players: yeah but now with your ilvl lock it makes trading gear harder
devs: listen its exciting you dont get it
*TF gets removed*
devs: we listened to your feedback and agree

legendaries in legion
devs: in legion you can target legendaries
*beta happens*
players: we dont like the rng acquisition
devs: it makes looting a mob exciting
*game launches*
players: theres a 4 leggo hard cap with blp and that is a bad idea
devs: we dont want you to get the leggos too quickly because then you wont play the content as much
players: we would like to be able to target them
devs: that isnt as much fun
*8.3 launches*
devs: we agree with your feedback and now you can buy the legendaries



do you only watch heelzvsbabyface??? because your hypothetical youtuber seems like a twat

- - - Updated - - -

Class design is also connected to covanents right now so... yeah they aren't budging.

i just want the class design to....ya know FIX my class. SEF needs reworked to MoP version or removed

- - - Updated - - -

Is there anyone who is really surprised that the devs don't actually care about feedback?

It has been very clear for the past several expansions.

its not that they dont care but they tend to ignore a big amount of feedback if it goes against their plans

examples include
m+ cache change in 8.0
m+ gear lock
complete removal of ML
conduit system

the only thing that gets them to budge is big loud feedback like what is coming in SL launch

[Aeluron Lightsong]

do you only watch heelzvsbabyface??? because your hypothetical youtuber seems like a twat

He is corporations bane.... >.> <.< Not really

examples include
m+ cache change in 8.0
m+ gear lock
complete removal of ML
conduit system

I don't know what they can do to fix the conduit system that is *so flawed according to youtubers/streamers* If they want it removed completely thats not happening and it'd be more likely they caved on covanents then removing conduits.

players: we dont like the rng acquisition

I heard way more people complain how it made them so necessary to have to be....good or something. The RNG part wasn't it and some people favor Legion over BFA. Look I dunno what to tell you. I just think we got the best situation(SL being delayed).

[shoc]

Is it against the rules to tell people who agonize over shit like this to get a fucking life? I swear it's not to be insulting, I truly think if you've fallen to that point, taking a big step away from WoW and re-evaluating your relationship with this game is urgently needed and you deserve to escape this miserable depressive hole.

The earth is such a big and beautiful place and the human experience is so rich and varied and marvelous and sometimes sad but tremendously moving all the time and complaining about balance in a 16 year old game with mutable choices abound feels like.. such a waste.

[Harbour]

>There are dozens cases of developers not addressing good feedback
>Apparently there is direct proof of developers not caring about feedback
Blizzdrones everywhere: Thats not true!

I wonder, are they paid, or just have natural need to defend and justify bad stuff developers do.