9.0 General Discussion

[Sondrelk]

But isn't that exactly the point? She flat out states it, there is nothing 3D chess about it, it isn't even chess. It's plainly stated, so that a middle schooler could take note of it. It wouldn't even be much of a twist at that point because it's that obvious. Her mind is the only thing that is holding the void back for now, once that stops working who knows what will happen. On the contrary, even though I can't stand our resident Slyvnas fanatic over there, it's true that not counting her actual first death is much more of "twist" (more like forcing the square peg into the round hole) than going with a character that states it herself.

I wouldn't even call that "giving Blizzard credit", because that is precisely the kind of obvious writing that we've seen time and time again from Blizzard.

Deciphering the Old God whispers is more like trying to decide which of the two or three obvious candidates are the most likely. Unless of course there is only a single reasonable one like King of Diamonds being Magni.

In the case of "Third death" there were in fact several likely candidates:
Azeroth, with each of the cataclysms that has happened.
Alleria, because of her own words.
Azshara, because she could have been stated to metaphorically die when she accepted Sargeras' bargain, and again when N'zoth transformed her.
And Sylvanas, because you had your option of either discounting the Godfrey death or her first death to Arthas. She was also a liely candidate because she was the only one who could be confidently stated to have actually died, cutting out the metaphor middle man.

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Well, not like that line amounted to anything useful so far. Regardless of who it refers to, we can neither tell whether it refers to a past or future event nor what that event is supposed to be.

Now that Anduin is captured by Sylvanas and the Jailer I almost wonder whether we are about to see that prophecy come about. It does seem like the most likely moment for it to happen unless Blizzard really wants to save the twist for much later.

[Varodoc]

Just interested where does she say that? And in what context? What would be the her first and second death?

It's a dialogue that Alleria has with Turalyon in front of her statue in Stormwind, some time before her visit to Silvermoon during the Nightborne recruitment scenario:

Alleria sighs, her brow furrowed.
High Exarch Turalyon says: It is unsettling to look upon these memorials to our passing.
Alleria Windrunner says: Indeed. Sometimes I feel that I have already died twice. Once when we were presumed lost on Draenor, and again when gripped by the shadow of the fallen naaru.
Alleria Windrunner says: Perhaps death is the true legacy of the Windrunners.
High Exarch Turalyon says: You're anxious. You hide it well... but I know you.
Alleria Windrunner says: Like no other, my love.
High Exarch Turalyon says: You don't have to go. You don't have to see her.
High Exarch Turalyon says: Each of you has a path to follow. If the Light wills that those paths intersect, they will. There's no need to force the hand of fate.
Alleria Windrunner says: It is time, Turalyon. I must see my homeland again with my own eyes... and hear from Sylvanas how she could ever wear the mantle of warchief.

So, her first "death" would be when she was stranded in the Nether after the explosion of Draenor, and her second "death" would be when she merged with the dark naaru in Mac'aree. You will notice that both of these "deaths" are metaphorical, she didn't actually die, she just feels like she did because her life was destabilized so much.

Of course this is all irrelevant now, since we know that Azeroth (and maybe you can make an argument for Azshara) was the subject of that prophecy revolving around N'Zoth's return. Alleria's dialogue was a textbook example of a red herring:

A red herring is something that misleads or distracts from a relevant or important question.[1] It may be either a logical fallacy or a literary device that leads readers or audiences toward a false conclusion. A red herring may be used intentionally, as in mystery fiction or as part of rhetorical strategies (e.g., in politics), or may be used in argumentation inadvertently.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Now that Anduin is captured by Sylvanas and the Jailer I almost wonder whether we are about to see that prophecy come about. It does seem like the most likely moment for it to happen unless Blizzard really wants to save the twist for much later.

She's a ticking time bomb, Anduin at his core is different. The fact that we see in a vision Alleria going mad is not really surprising, I almost think its inevitable but not the way we saw(Like Turalyon dying, I think that won't happen but if what I think is coming is true Alleria might actually have contention with her hubby).

[TigTone]

She's a ticking time bomb, Anduin at his core is different. The fact that we see in a vision Alleria going mad is not really surprising, I almost think its inevitable but not the way we saw(Like Turalyon dying, I think that won't happen but if what I think is coming is true Alleria might actually have contention with her hubby).

I think the ticking time bomb is Turalyon. The heroes of Azeroth are gone to the shadowlands along with some of its world leaders.

Also with the burning legion gone the universes is up for “grabs”.

This means the army of light can focus on recruiting and spreading their influence. That makes me think one of the first places they will be going is Azeroth.

[huth]

I think the ticking time bomb is Turalyon. The heroes of Azeroth are gone to the shadowlands along with some of its world leaders.

Also with the burning legion gone the universes is up for “grabs”.

This means the army of light can focus on recruiting and spreading their influence. That makes me think one of the first places they will be going is Azeroth.

Just look at Draenor for what happens when they no longer have some issues holding them back. Though it was stated that Xe'ra's group was just a minor splinter, who knows what the main branch is like.

[THEORACLE64]

Alleria literally says "This feels like my third death" and you people are like 'no that can't be right. It has to be sylvanas in this much more contrived way"

Feels like =/= is.

[Varodoc]

If Alleria succumbed to the whispers, then the Alliance would truly be doomed. Stormwind would be annihilated. Alleria merged with a dark naaru. The Dark Star, a dark naaru who appeared in WoD, gave a perfect demonstration of the divine power they possess:



Regardless, they're not killing Alleria after they just reintroduced her in the storyline. Same thing for Turalyon. They are not going anywhere for the next 4 or so years.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Visions don't mean the truth...they never do.

[Eurhetemec]

I think the ticking time bomb is Turalyon. The heroes of Azeroth are gone to the shadowlands along with some of its world leaders.

Also with the burning legion gone the universes is up for “grabs”.

This means the army of light can focus on recruiting and spreading their influence. That makes me think one of the first places they will be going is Azeroth.

Yup. I expect this is the "set-up" for the next expansion if they do indeed go for a light/void-style one. I.e. that whilst we're all way dealing with this "war in heaven", the forces of Light and Shadow will be making in-roads into Azeroth, gaining armies of fanatics, and so on. They could do it gradually over 9.1, 9.2, 9.3, or suddenly have a lot of stuff happen towards the end of the expansion (depending on how they want the narrative to feel).

EDIT - This would also somewhat imply the "third death" thing was indeed Alleria, which would fit with the "Blizzard doesn't do subtlety" claims (which are basically true - I dunno if it's "can't" as much as "won't" but either way the result is the same).

So Alleria dies towards the end of SL ushering in the Shadow Lords maybe?

(I actually think Sylvanas has always been a bad candidate because you have to assume "her heart is a crater; we have filled it" refers to someone else, because sure as shit nobody has filled Sylvanas' heart - whereas the Shadow arguably has filled Alleria's heart.)

[Sondrelk]

Anyone ever wonder why Blizzard called the zone teaser videos "X from above" when most of it is just from regualr ground level? Surely they could have come up with a more fitting name.

[Varodoc]

Yup. I expect this is the "set-up" for the next expansion if they do indeed go for a light/void-style one. I.e. that whilst we're all way dealing with this "war in heaven", the forces of Light and Shadow will be making in-roads into Azeroth, gaining armies of fanatics, and so on. They could do it gradually over 9.1, 9.2, 9.3, or suddenly have a lot of stuff happen towards the end of the expansion (depending on how they want the narrative to feel).

EDIT - This would also somewhat imply the "third death" thing was indeed Alleria, which would fit with the "Blizzard doesn't do subtlety" claims (which are basically true - I dunno if it's "can't" as much as "won't" but either way the result is the same).

So Alleria dies towards the end of SL ushering in the Shadow Lords maybe?

(I actually think Sylvanas has always been a bad candidate because you have to assume "her heart is a crater; we have filled it" refers to someone else, because sure as shit nobody has filled Sylvanas' heart - whereas the Shadow arguably has filled Alleria's heart.)

"Her heart is a crater and we have filled it" clearly refers to Azeroth. We spent the entire expansion literally filling "her heart". You might say: "But we filled it, not the Old Gods!"... And this is where the catch comes in. We were indirectly working for the Old Gods, because that's precisely what N'Zoth wanted. He wanted us to fill the Heart so that it could be used to override the prison chains and free him.

"The King of Diamonds has been made a pawn", who was constantly urging you to gather azerite to fill the Heart of Azeroth? Exactly.

[Makorus]

Except you said they don't control the Void, which is blatantly false. Now you're backtracking.

And just like the Void elves don't control the Void Lords, the Void Lords don't control the Void elves.



I don't remember Chronicles ever painting it as a cataclysmic event.

The one who frames it as a cataclysmic event is Xal'atath, as she mentions how there was a "great upheaval of the land", referring to the scouring of the Black Empire after the titan creations devastated it. That is not a valid nor reliable source.



It wasn't Alleria, lol. She literally didn't play a role in the N'Zoth storyline. "Our coming" referred to N'Zoth's coming, as Il'gynoth is his minion.

What, so the sword is a cataclysmic event but the Scouring, which left a way bigger scar on the world (that is still there, mind you) isn't?
Like, you know the Maelstrom is the result of that, right?

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It's a dialogue that Alleria has with Turalyon in front of her statue in Stormwind, some time before her visit to Silvermoon during the Nightborne recruitment scenario:



So, her first "death" would be when she was stranded in the Nether after the explosion of Draenor, and her second "death" would be when she merged with the dark naaru in Mac'aree. You will notice that both of these "deaths" are metaphorical, she didn't actually die, she just feels like she did because her life was destabilized so much.

Of course this is all irrelevant now, since we know that Azeroth (and maybe you can make an argument for Azshara) was the subject of that prophecy revolving around N'Zoth's return. Alleria's dialogue was a textbook example of a red herring:

But Azeroth wasn't the subject of that at all. It might be the subject if you completely ignore one of the biggest events in Azeroths history.

[Varodoc]

What, so the sword is a cataclysmic event but the Scouring, which left a way bigger scar on the world (that is still there, mind you) isn't?
Like, you know the Maelstrom is the result of that, right?

Aside from the fact that only Xal'atath uses the term "Scouring" in one line of dialogue, so it's not even an official term from the Chronicles, No, it wasn't as cataclysmic as the destruction wrought by Sargeras. In both cases, the blood of the World Soul spilled out from the crust, only that in the Scouring's case said blood was limited to one pool, while in BfA's case blood was emerging globally. Azeroth was bleeding from Zandalar to Kul Tiras, from Kalimdor to the EK, while in ancient times it was bleeding only at the very centre of the land. So tell me again how they are comparable? BfA was clearly much more global than whatever Aman'thul did.

Also, I'd like to know what makes you think the Well of Eternity is bigger than Silithus.

But Azeroth wasn't the subject of that at all. It might be the subject if you completely ignore one of the biggest events in Azeroths history.

"One of the biggest events in Azeroth's history", when it's not even named in the Chronicles.

[Ersula]

Feels like =/= is.

None of the whispers are literal. None of them.

[Makorus]

Aside from the fact that only Xal'atath uses the term "Scouring" in one line of dialogue, so it's not even an official term from the Chronicles, No, it wasn't as cataclysmic as the destruction wrought by Sargeras. In both cases, the blood of the World Soul spilled out from the crust, only that in the Scouring's case said blood was limited to one pool, while in BfA's case blood was emerging globally. Azeroth was bleeding from Zandalar to Kul Tiras, from Kalimdor to the EK, while in ancient times it was bleeding only at the very centre of the land. So tell me again how they are comparable? BfA was clearly much more global than whatever Aman'thul did.

Also, I'd like to know what makes you think the Well of Eternity is bigger than Silithus.


"One of the biggest events in Azeroth's history", when it's not even named in the Chronicles.

Sure sounds like it was nothing lol.

Y'Shaarj was dead, but its tendrils had bored more deeply through Azeroth than Aman'Thul had ever imagined. In excising the Old God from the world, he had inadvertently ripped an eternal wound in Azeroth's surface. Volatile arcane energies- the lifeblood of the nascent titan- erupted from the scar and roiled out across the world.

[TigTone]

None of the whispers are literal. None of them.

That is true.
Their whispers are all figurative language that’s why it’s hard to see what they mean until it already has happened.

I also think the Void whispers in that manner on purpose as to get the outcome they prefer.

[Varodoc]

Sure sounds like it was nothing lol.

I didn't say it was nothing. I said it wasn't nearly as cataclysmic as BfA. Aman'thul caused one wound to spill blood? Guess what, Sargeras caused 50+ wounds to spill blood, all over Azeroth.

Now tell me, what would be worse for you? One big wound and that's it, or one big wound and dozens of smaller wounds all over your body? Which would cause you more blood loss and pain?

[shoc]

No one is saying that the other races are safer but Void Elves and Alleria willingly deal with powers they have no control over. They are pretty much asking to be controlled by thinking they have control over the Void when they dont even know that.

I mean, yeah, they arent much different to the Twilights Hammer in that regard. They just think they cant handle the power (PS: They cant)



Azeroth "died" three times before the sword.

1.) The Scouring, when Amanthul ripped out Y'shaarj
2.) The Sundering
3.) The Shattering

Not dead, wounded and injured. If Azeroth was dead there'd be no plot.

The 'At the hour of her third death, she will usher in our coming.' quote I think is Azshara, in which case they even made an in-game cinematic about it. If we interpret her having died twice in the Warbringers cinematic. First she drowns/gets killed by the drowned undead Highborne. Then she gets whisked away to Ny'alotha where she drowns a second time, and is transformed into a Naga.

Putting all the whispers together in context makes it clear I think.

'She will show you the way. Come... come. The hour approaches when all eyes shall be opened.'
'She is not the last, but the first. Drown her and you will see.'
'At the hour of her third death, she will usher in our coming.'

[THEORACLE64]

None of the whispers are literal. None of them.

Duh, but some relate in the slightest. Alleria is such a long shot. Like, you have to bend stuff so much for it to even fit.

[Doffen]

https://www.wowhead.com/news=318861/...walker-world-b

Interesting this. We'll see tomorrow. Time to(aka continue) to level alts!