1. #66341
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    You want zero personality, no character, no purpose evil force? No reasoning, no understanding, pure 100% bland thing you just smack over the head for loot? This is actually first time I saw someone asking for that here. All eh complaints were about not fleshing them out enough. And TBH we had plenty of these already (or close enough, because to fulfil all those bullet points, we would have to fight a pure Fel energy, or something). Yogg and C'thun, regardless of who send them, were just a single minded, corrupting force of destruction. Same with Deathwing.
    "I don't like it" is all you are really saying.
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  2. #66342
    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    Honestly, I can't see how people can hear Sylvanas go "the logistics of the afterlife are really bad, it's time to restructure" and disagree with that
    Nobody is saying that. Even Danuser CONFIRMED we were meant to read problems.

    It's because the ethos of him and consequently Sylvanas per the Shadows Rising epilogue is to obliterate creation, not carefully rehabilitate it. The actual positive changes to the Shadowlands are facilitated by us, the players, by opposing radicals of different zone theme stripes (and the Drust that seem underwritten).

    This is not to take a political stance personally, but it bears noting the Grey Lady Bad real life allegory of a cult of personality leader that duped a large group into believing in them despite self serving interests in BFA was not subtle coming from a California based corporation.

    Neither is an allegory about a system that is not kind to the disenfranchised but is met with a violent breed of nihilism to erase it.

    The villain can still be wrong. Or at least the intended text reading can feel that way. Death of the Author and all that.

  3. #66343
    Quote Originally Posted by Vakir View Post
    Neither is an allegory about a system that is not kind to the disenfranchised but is met with a violent breed of nihilism to erase it.
    *Her "true" goal being to obliterate creation is your individual reading of her words
    *We're told the mawsworn are being converted & controlled by the Jailer, so completely that they are capable of monologuing about how much they love death & the jailer, so why shouldn't we assume Sylvanas is in a similar situation
    *Sylvanas' character is to be secretive & self-reliant. Whom can she trust when all are bound to the Jailer eventually?
    *We wouldn't even know that there is a Jailer or that there was a problem with the system of the death if it weren't for Sylvanas' very specific actions
    *Sure she could have tried telling people, but A.) no one ever trusted her enough to believe her & B.) Considering we now know the Val'kyr have essentially been her "Handlers" to watch her every move on behalf of the jailer, you start to understand why her actions are inherently perplexing

    And finally, & this is the one that firmly places her in "morally ambiguous" territory, which is what the Dev's want.

    *What does killing people matter if the larger dilemma is in the realm of the afterlife itself? The world is a prison indeed.
    Last edited by Ersula; 2020-11-03 at 08:22 PM.

  4. #66344
    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    You want zero personality, no character, no purpose evil force? No reasoning, no understanding, pure 100% bland thing you just smack over the head for loot? This is actually first time I saw someone asking for that here. All eh complaints were about not fleshing them out enough. And TBH we had plenty of these already (or close enough, because to fulfil all those bullet points, we would have to fight a pure Fel energy, or something). Yogg and C'thun, regardless of who send them, were just a single minded, corrupting force of destruction. Same with Deathwing.
    Not necessarily, take for example Emperor Palpatine from Star Wars. He is objectively evil, and he doesn't have a traumatic backstory nor compelling motivations, but he's still super popular and iconic, because he has a badass design, an entertaining personality, and all around a lot of presence in the storyline. He only appears in the final movie of the original trilogy, but he was always present in a way, as he was the puppet master behind Darth Vader (there is a scene in episode V where Vader literally kneels before a projection of Palpatine). He's so beloved yet at the end of the day he's just a crazy lunatic who wants to rule the galaxy as an eternal emperor.

    And if you don't believe me check any reaction to the trailer of Episode IX on youtube, the crowds went absolutely crazy once they heard that chuckle at the end.

    Same thing here, you don't need morally grey motivations to be a good villain. It's easier to make a decent villain if you give them understandable motivations, but not necessary.

    Also what is very important for a villain is design. A villain needs to have a cool design that reflects their personality and powers. The Jailer right now looks very generic. I preferred him as that "Evil Aman'thul" from the Shadowlands teaser. He looked more mysterious and mystical, you could say.
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2020-11-03 at 08:30 PM.

  5. #66345
    Old God HighlordJohnstone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    You want zero personality, no character, no purpose evil force? No reasoning, no understanding, pure 100% bland thing you just smack over the head for loot? This is actually first time I saw someone asking for that here. All eh complaints were about not fleshing them out enough. And TBH we had plenty of these already (or close enough, because to fulfil all those bullet points, we would have to fight a pure Fel energy, or something). Yogg and C'thun, regardless of who send them, were just a single minded, corrupting force of destruction. Same with Deathwing.
    You can be the most evil fucker out there, yet still have a personality. Look at fucking Gul'dan. He's pure evil, yet he was one of the best WoW Characters out there. I want a pure evil Cosmic Force to deal with. Not a force that bases their shit on a cosmic hierarchy, but a force of evil that can just devour and consume all in its path without care. I want the Jailer to be an evil cunt who's manipulative, yet badass. I want him to have the goal of dismantling all forces in the Cosmos, because he just wants to have fun with it, or some twisted way of thinking like that.

    I don't want another "morally grey" villain, or another force of nature like the Old Gods. I WANT A PURE EVIL GOD TO SLAY!!!

  6. #66346
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Same thing here, you don't need morally grey motivations to be a good villain. It's easier to make a decent villain if you give them understandable motivations, but not necessary.
    So you're saying when Alleria goes mask-off & becomes a raid boss, you're going to be all for it? She melted an innocent man's brain in the Shadow's Rising novel. She's next on the objectively evil list of potential villains.

  7. #66347
    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    So you're saying when Alleria goes mask-off & becomes a raid boss, you're going to be all for it? She melted an innocent man's brain in the Shadow's Rising novel. She's next on the objectively evil list of potential villains.
    D... did you not read my past comments in this thread? I already commended Alleria many times for single-handedly corrupting Stormwind in that Vision, I even praised how badass she looked.

    Unlike you, who absolutely can't accept that Sylvanas is evil and a villain, I have no problem admitting it.

    Alleria would be one of the most tragic villains in the entire franchise if she ever fell to the whispers, and Blizzard could easily write a masterful character arc if they took that route and developed it in a natural way. What matters to me, and to anyone sane really, is execution. Don't point fingers at me, because I am the least biased person you will ever see here, and I am much more impartial than you, who constantly justify Sylvanas and claim she's a good guy.
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2020-11-03 at 08:36 PM.

  8. #66348
    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    I don't want another "morally grey" villain, or another force of nature like the Old Gods. I WANT A PURE EVIL GOD TO SLAY!!!
    That's why they created the Jailer.

    But some people are saying Sylvanas somehow deserves worse punishment than the various men who caused her trauma, which I am not for. Alleria neither. I don't need cartoonishly flat characters.

  9. #66349
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    That is just the name though. The class itself is well-known.
    Different people have wildly different ideas of what such a class would entail.

    The idea of a engineer-type class (as opposed to NPCs who are engineers, or the engineer skill) being in WoW is moderately well-known. Like, casual players, which is most WoW players, rarely know it's an idea. They see the NPCs who are engineers as "characters in vehicles" (because mechsuits are vehicles in WoW, we use them from time to time), or just extensions of the skill.

    Among more long-term players, and those who frequent messageboards, which isn't a very large percentage of players overall, it's absolutely a well-known idea, because people suggest it every single expansion, all the way back to TBC, and it always gets shot down the same way - "There's already the engineering skill". (As an aside, I don't agree with that shoot-down. If that logic held there'd be no Demon Hunters, because Warlocks already covered about as much of that as Engineering does of an engineer or "tinker" class).

    But even those players have wildly different ideas about it, as I was saying. Just look at people describing what it would be like. For me, for example, an engineer/tinker class would "obviously" (to me I mean lol ) be a mechsuit-based tank spec, a guns-and-gadgets-based DPS spec, and a "medical"-themed healing spec (it's been done before, in SWTOR for example). For other people, it's totally different things, like all mechsuits with different roles, or all DPS specs based on guns and mechanical pets but no mechsuits (indeed this was a very common idea in the Vanilla-Wrath days when people theorized about an engineer/tinker class), or whatever.

    So it's a bit strange to say it's an "iconic class". It isn't. There are iconic characters who are engineers/tinkers, sure, but there are iconic characters who are dragons, or non-playable races, or Half-Ogre Batman, or necromancers or whatever.

    It would be more accurate to say "It's probably the most commonly suggested class that's not in the game already" (though necromancer will make that a close race). It's not some universally-agreed and obvious thing which is just waiting to appear in the game.
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  10. #66350
    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    *Her "true" goal being to obliterate creation is your individual reading of her words
    "The Jailer, too, knew what needed to be done" + Doylist text describing an ancient evil erasing creation

    *We're told the mawsworn are being converted & controlled by the Jailer, so completely that they are capable of monologuing about how much they love death & the jailer, so why shouldn't we assume Sylvanas is in a similar situation
    Why shouldn't we indeed? It's entirely possible, albeit it would probably rub many the wrong way that. But it can't be both ways. You can't claim that someone is playing 12D chess and is a Machiavellian genius and also that the Devil made her do it.

    She either has direct will or she doesn't. If she does, it is narratively in the realm of her making...at BEST an impetuous mistake. If she doesn't, she's another sympathetic prop and nobody is happy.

    *We wouldn't even know that there is a Jailer or that there was a problem with the system of the death if it weren't for Sylvanas' very specific actions
    Yes and no. The Jailer's direct threat being what it is happened as a result of her participation. While it's true that it is hard to trust, handing him millions to do it while also directly backing him doesn't look so hot.

    As far as this whole notion of not being able to tell anyone, Danuser confirmed she lifts the mask on her intentions early on. So the trailer line "with the Jailer, control of our fate will at last be possible" is speaking honestly, even if she likely has her own reasons for it. She isn't lying in that sense.

    The problem with the moral ambiguity you're presenting it as is that it is fundamentally Schrodinger's Bitch.

    "If the Jailer is in the right, she's working with the Jailer to try and fix great injustice! If he isn't, she is under control and a victim or is playing 14D Interdisciplinary Backgammon."

    "BuT IlLiDaN..."

    Seriously, it is entirely possible for a character to be morally ambiguous by way of being bamboozled by seeing a bleak vision of Hell after being the victim of circumstance and cursed to a miserable existence, losing faith to the point of extreme omnicide and nihilism while we feel bad for what drove them to the brink of despair. Where breaking it all feels like the only solution. It's how people poorly cope in the real world all the time.

    This other proposed direction is just the shitty version of The Good Place.

  11. #66351
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Not necessarily, take for example Emperor Palpatine from Star Wars. He is objectively evil, and he doesn't have a traumatic backstory nor compelling motivations, but he's still super popular and iconic, because he has a badass design, an entertaining personality, and all around a lot of presence in the storyline. He only appears in the final movie of the original trilogy, but he was always present in a way, as he was the puppet master behind Darth Vader (there is a scene in episode V where Vader literally kneels before a projection of Palpatine). He's so beloved yet at the end of the day he's just a crazy lunatic who wants to rule the galaxy as an eternal emperor.
    Palpatine wasn't a popular character anyone really cared about until after the prequels developed his personality and motivations.

    I grew up in the 1980s. No-one gave a shit about Palps. He was some dumb old man who shot lightning then got thrown down a hole, despite a pretty good performance. Darth Vader was what it was all about. The same was true in the 1990s. Darth Vader was the man, Palps was nobody.

    Only with the prequels giving him a lot more personality, and a bit of a backstory, and non-hostile interactions with people did he become this highly popular, meme-y, cheer-inducing character that he is now. I went with someone who skipped the prequels to see IX, and they were astonished to see Palps was back, because they just thought of him as a non-entity, despite having been a big fan of the OT.

    What's my point?

    He's "beloved" because his character got developed. He wasn't before then.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Vakir View Post
    You can't claim that someone is playing 12D chess and is a Machiavellian genius and also that the Devil made her do it.
    I've actually seen that done successfully, though I'm struggling to remember where it was - something in the late 1990s or early 2000s I think. I doubt an MMORPG could pull something like that off, except maybe SWTOR, though.
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  12. #66352
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    He's "beloved" because his character got developed. He wasn't before then.
    And his character is master manipulator and doesn't really give a shit about anyone other then himself his "sith reign" and thats it. Nothing really redeemable with the dude.
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  13. #66353
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    And his character is master manipulator and doesn't really give a shit about anyone other then himself his "sith reign" and thats it. Nothing really redeemable with the dude.
    Oh definitely yeah, he's evil incarnate lol.

    But he has quite a developed personality and backstory and so on. If he was just the Emperor from Episode VI and IX, we would not be a popular character except with turbo-nerds.

    Equally if Darth Vader didn't have his "I am your Father" and redemption-moment and so on, he'd be vastly more forgettable. A character doesn't have to become good, but they do need to have a bit more going on than "I AM MR EVIL ARRIVED TO DO EVIL". Otherwise you get fucking Steppenwolf from from the Justice League movie, who is a shit-tier villain and will remain a shit-tier villain even with the director's cut and so on (he'll just be a shit-tier villain who has a brief scene with Darkseid, who 75% of the audience will think is a cheap rip-off of Thanos lol).

    The Jailer will need a bit more development of some kind if he's going to be anything but "extra-lorg Steppenwolf" or "Thanos minus the personality and motivations".
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  14. #66354
    The Nathrezim missive (and them holding off on making that a public reveal) is pretty damning on Jailer being tied to Warcraft proper instead of just the cosmology, so it's just a matter of WHEN they want to show more lore about him.

    He's not in launch all that much but neither is Sylvanas. Could there be secret quests? Maybe. But I don't think its worth fretting all that much that the villain isn't really developed all that much in launch quests, especially when the focus is on the covenants.

  15. #66355
    Quote Originally Posted by Eurhetemec View Post
    The idea of a engineer-type class (as opposed to NPCs who are engineers, or the engineer skill) being in WoW is moderately well-known. Like, casual players, which is most WoW players, rarely know it's an idea. They see the NPCs who are engineers as "characters in vehicles" (because mechsuits are vehicles in WoW, we use them from time to time), or just extensions of the skill.
    The idea of a tinker class has appeared in the game more then Demon Hunters did and yet that never stopped anything. There is no need to invent different reasons to gate keep a potential addition. Casual players have never stopped an idea before and you under estimate the concept of a mechanical based class to the "non-message board" player base. Blizzard has slowly been building out the mechanical aspect for over a decade. The base concept exists.

    It doesn't matter if your idea is different then others. Because you are all basing that idea on the representations that they have been shown in the game. If you all share a common base then it is iconic enough.
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  16. #66356
    Anyone else think bringing back Invasion Points from Legion would be a good idea for Shadowlands? What I mean by that is having the Maw forces invading other Afterlife Realms besides the 4 main zones. Basically showcasing a small bit of what some other realms could look like, even giving a bunch of different characters from the past just a small cameo of being saved in their Afterlife. Or is this idea too dumb?
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  17. #66357
    Speaking of Palpatine, I guess that might be the best analogue for the Jailer being the mindless force of destruction in Shadowlands.

    Darht Vader is the one we have emotional interest in and the character we feel invested in seeing defeated. However since there is a limit to how much actual threat Darht Vader himself can realistically muster we have Palpatine to add an extra layer of danger to the situation.

    Similarly Sylvanas is the character we want to see dead, but she isnt threatening enough on her own without something external giving her power, and since a literal macguffin is too boring we instead have the Jailer, which while not necessarily terrible interesting, is at least more interesting, and has the capacity for independent thought and action, compared to the hypothetical "Bow of +200% final boss ability" that Sylvanas might have picked up instead.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Pebrocks The Warlock View Post
    Anyone else think bringing back Invasion Points from Legion would be a good idea for Shadowlands? What I mean by that is having the Maw forces invading other Afterlife Realms besides the 4 main zones. Basically showcasing a small bit of what some other realms could look like, even giving a bunch of different characters from the past just a small cameo of being saved in their Afterlife. Or is this idea too dumb?
    Whether Argus invasions or BfA islands I do feel Blizzard should continue with recycling content, they are often far too stingy with assets, especially when it comes to enviromental assets.
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  18. #66358
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Whether Argus invasions or BfA islands I do feel Blizzard should continue with recycling content, they are often far too stingy with assets, especially when it comes to enviromental assets.
    I was kind of looking at this in a lore PoV. Seeing potential afterlives, even a little bit, and the characters that ended up there.
    7.3 Invasion Points alone introduced 6 different planets.
    Last edited by Pebrocks The Warlock; 2020-11-03 at 10:08 PM.
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  19. #66359
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    It doesn't matter if your idea is different then others. Because you are all basing that idea on the representations that they have been shown in the game. If you all share a common base then it is iconic enough.
    I agree. But I don't think such a common base exists yet, in fact, I think we're a bit further away from it than we have been at certain points, at least for "iconic" to be valid.

    You could definitely add an engineer/tinker class to the game and be successful with it, though. Then it will likely be iconic because Blizzard have never designed a class that wasn't, they're masterful at it compared to other MMOs. There will of course be a shit-ton of whinging from the very people here saying it was "iconic" and everyone "agreed" on what the class would be like though - because the class may well not be like that. It might not have a mechsuit option at all, for example, or might only have mechsuit options, or the mechsuit might be a brief cooldown (highly likely IMO), which would enrage some people here.
    Last edited by Eurhetemec; 2020-11-03 at 10:26 PM.
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  20. #66360
    Quote Originally Posted by Eurhetemec View Post
    I agree. But I don't think such a common base exists yet, in fact, I think we're a bit further away from it than we have been at certain points.
    Person controlling a mechanical technowonder suit is a perfectly valid and understandable base for a class.

    We have the basic stuff of strapping a bunch of guns and blades and what you to it. Or placing down smaller robots to help. Or now that Marvel is a big thing just fly around the battlefield punching people.

    It is pretty much like how the accepted base for Necromancer is cloth wearer summoning undead, and despite this it is somehow distinct enough from unholy DK because of the plate that making a full class based on it is easily possible.
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