9.0 General Discussion

[Nagawithlegs]

Isn't that what we are talking about? the process of losing their memory and identity?

I'm pretty sure i saw that an NPC mention that is a process that every Kyrion must go through eventually, but everyone at their own pace.

Right, but I'm talking about whether or not every spirit that shows up in Bastion MUST become a Kyrian or not. In Revendreth it is offered as a choice: once you repent, do you want to move on or become a Venthyr to help other people go through the same process?

I don't think it's been mentioned if EVERY soul sent to Bastion MUST become a Kyrian or not. If it actually is the only Light afterlife then it would be rather shitty if the choice is forced, but if they just say it's a place you go if you want to continue serving the light it makes some sense.

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Will each zone have its own version of the Spirit Healer?

So far dying in Revendreth shows a classic Spirit Healer model but it might be placeholder.

[Sondrelk]

As far as we know, is not a choice, that's the main problem the Forsworn have with the Kyrians, that may change in the future though.

Well i could see some Ex-horde members doing that, but is still weird for me, though i do agree that it would be selected heroes and those who wish to join the Alliance, so i could see many Ex-horde members just remaining in Bastion.

Note: Though the Kyrians don't really rush anyone to do the process, there are even some NPC that point out that you don't have to rush things, in the end, you have an eternity.

It is 100% a choice, it is repeated several times that those who are unworthy are sent back to Oribos, as well as anyone being able to give up their ascendance and return to Oribos instead. The main problem that seems to be faced that causes Forsworn is doubt over whether becoming Ascended and losing their memories/spending eternity in service is something they are capable of.
The important thing to keep in mind is that those who go to Bastion are those who are supposedly the most selfless, so giving up on such a calling would likely cause them immense mental anguish, knowing that they might regret it forever and never given another chance.

[Maxilian]

Right, but I'm talking about whether or not every spirit that shows up in Bastion MUST become a Kyrian or not. In Revendreth it is offered as a choice: once you repent, do you want to move on or become a Venthyr to help other people go through the same process?

I don't think it's been mentioned if EVERY soul sent to Bastion MUST become a Kyrian or not. If it actually is the only Light afterlife then it would be rather shitty if the choice is forced, but if they just say it's a place you go if you want to continue serving the light it makes some sense.

I guess you can stay an eternity there as a spirit without body without much problem.

[serra2]

Right, but I'm talking about whether or not every spirit that shows up in Bastion MUST become a Kyrian or not. In Revendreth it is offered as a choice: once you repent, do you want to move on or become a Venthyr to help other people go through the same process?

I don't think it's been mentioned if EVERY soul sent to Bastion MUST become a Kyrian or not. If it actually is the only Light afterlife then it would be rather shitty if the choice is forced, but if they just say it's a place you go if you want to continue serving the light it makes some sense.

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So far dying in Revendreth shows a classic Spirit Healer model but it might be placeholder.

Pretty sure it was mentioned in the Bizzard preview that those who fail the path to become a Kyrian get sent back to the Arbiter to get reassigned to another afterlife, kind of like with the Venithyr.

[Maxilian]

It is 100% a choice, it is repeated several times that those who are unworthy are sent back to Oribos, as well as anyone being able to give up their ascendance and return to Oribos instead. The main problem that seems to be faced that causes Forsworn is doubt over whether becoming Ascended and losing their memories/spending eternity in service is something they are capable of.
The important thing to keep in mind is that those who go to Bastion are those who are supposedly the most selfless, so giving up on such a calling would likely cause them immense mental anguish, knowing that they might regret it forever and never given another chance.

Sounds fair enough, though those that are found unworthy mid trial seem to end up becoming Forsworns.

[Sondrelk]

The problem the Forsworn have is the memory and identity erasure. I don't think it's brought up that its a forced process for any souls that arrive there, though I could be wrong.

I agree though that the memory and identity erasure is way too sympathetic of a cause and likely will be something that changes to bring the Kyrians and the Forsworn together. Uther will certainly play a role in it.

Someone pointed out on a previous thread, which i fully agree with. And that is that supposedly selfless people joining the Maw doesnt line up at all, so there is clearly quite a lot of propaganda going on with the Forsworn trying to goad those who intend ot ascend into giving up, which is the main reason they become Forsworn in the first place.

Uther especially is acting extremely odd, so either he has already had his memory removed and there is some trickery there, or we are talking about a level of mind-control forced onto him to make him more pliable.

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Sounds fair enough, though those that are found unworthy mid trial seem to end up becoming Forsworns.

We do actually see that exact thing happen. Uther talks to one of the Aspirants we are following thourhg the zone, the Aspirant is starting to feel doubt over whether he is worthy/willing, and is clearly in danger of turning into a Forsworn.

[Nagawithlegs]

Someone pointed out on a previous thread, which i fully agree with. And that is that supposedly selfless people joining the Maw doesnt line up at all, so there is clearly quite a lot of propaganda going on with the Forsworn trying to goad those who intend ot ascend into giving up, which is the main reason they become Forsworn in the first place.

Uther especially is acting extremely odd, so either he has already had his memory removed and there is some trickery there, or we are talking about a level of mind-control forced onto him to make him more pliable.

Uther being a Forsworn makes perfect sense (he would argue that you need to have your memories to be your strongest self) though the way he is presented is a little strange. I think it's mostly just weird writing and hiding that he's still a good guy: they make a point to show that he is unaware of the true villain and leader of the Forsworn's pact with the Jailer.

I'm assuming that he is being played by the Forsworn Leader and he really does just want to change things up within the Kyrians. Though why he's helping innocent people get hurt is a little odd and I'm assuming it's either some deep cover thing or he really is somehow mindcontrolled by the leader.

Nonetheless it's already been spoiled that he becomes a Kyrian again, and perhaps a Paragon. So I think it's likely he will lead the reformed Forsworn moving forward... it would be a really cool moment if he stands by his beliefs about the mindwipe and becomes a Kyrian again through that, showing the Archon that you can positively doubt certain beliefs and convictions.

[Sondrelk]

Uther being a Forsworn makes perfect sense (he would argue that you need to have your memories to be your strongest self) though the way he is presented is a little strange. I think it's mostly just weird writing and hiding that he's still a good guy: they make a point to show that he is unaware of the true villain and leader of the Forsworn's pact with the Jailer.

I'm assuming that he is being played by the Forsworn Leader and he really does just want to change things up within the Kyrians. Though why he's helping innocent people get hurt is a little odd and I'm assuming it's either some deep cover thing or he really is somehow mindcontrolled by the leader.

Nonetheless it's already been spoiled that he becomes a Kyrian again, and perhaps a Paragon. So I think it's likely he will lead the reformed Forsworn moving forward.

Him being Forsworn I don't mind, honestly it is the most interesting his character has ever been, not ot mention allowing for several routes forward on his possible redemption. Personally I imagine that he feels doubt over his worthiness as not just a Kyrian, but a paladin, seeing as he left his student at his lowest point, and is probably agonizing over whether he could have changed what happened if he kept being insistent, or even joining him in Northrend.

More specifically I mean in the way that Uther acts weird in general, he doesnt recognize us which is one thing, but he also does things that do not line up with his characterization from WC3 at all.
The only Forsworn i remember that actually seems to rationalize things is the female one we see constantly who is the one bringing up the idea that they do not want to have their memories erased.

Also, when i say that Forsworn joining the Maw at all seems weird I mean in the way that inherently selfless people probably wouldnt willingly join someone who intends on killing the very same people whose memories they are trying to hold on to. A few of them, maybe, but i doubt that the vast majority of them are actually aware of who they are actually following.

[Makabreska]

I just hope the Bastion story wont end with Uther/other Forsworn all accepting the brainwash, cuz "this is the righteous path" or some other bullshit. Would rather have them validate their own way.

[Nagawithlegs]

I just hope the Bastion story wont end with Uther/other Forsworn all accepting the brainwash, cuz "this is the righteous path" or some other bullshit. Would rather have them validate their own way.

There are wayyyyyy too many hints that Blizzard is portraying the brainwashing as bad, to the point that even your Kyrian buddies (the ones that don't go Forsworn) question it.

[Sondrelk]

I just hope the Bastion story wont end with Uther/other Forsworn all accepting the brainwash, cuz "this is the righteous path" or some other bullshit. Would rather have them validate their own way.

My guess is that the Kyrian covenant storyline will be partly about redeeming the Forsworn, and then later changing the way the system works so they can now choose to have their memories removed. The justification will be what the Forsworn aldy said, that it is more noble to ascend past their faults than to forget them.

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There are wayyyyyy too many hints that Blizzard is portraying the brainwashing as bad, to the point that even your Kyrian buddies (the ones that don't go Forsworn) question it.

It isnt Brainwashing though, that is just what the Forsworn call it. They simply have their memories erased, presumably to make them truly neutral and unable to be influenced by their own prejudices, which might be problematic for angels with the ability to literally preside over life and death.
The far more compelling argument for why it will likely end up being a voluntary choice at the end is what i mentioned above. That being noble is not just doing good things, but about being better than your inherent nature.

[Zero Wing]

I just hope the Bastion story wont end with Uther/other Forsworn all accepting the brainwash, cuz "this is the righteous path" or some other bullshit. Would rather have them validate their own way.

I disagree. I would like to see them keep to their old ways rather than having Blizzard writers force them into a 21st Century video game audience's idea of what is "good".

[Nagawithlegs]

I disagree. I would like to see them keep to their old ways rather than having Blizzard writers force them into a 21st Century video game audience's idea of what is "good".

Yeah, as BFA showed that isn't happening.

[Zero Wing]

Yeah, as BFA showed that isn't happening.

I'm no stranger to being disappointed by video game writing!

[Makabreska]

I disagree. I would like to see them keep to their old ways rather than having Blizzard writers force them into a 21st Century video game audience's idea of what is "good".

Old ways? Force them? We only just met them! Besides, WoW righting has a tendency of making player actions realize others their mistakes (Suramar), so I wouldn't count much on Kyrians keeping with the old. Especially if they gonna be an AR.

[Nagawithlegs]

I'm no stranger to being disappointed by video game writing!

Modern consumers are super fucking sensitive about morality in games where they can't decide what happens in the story. They are not going to allow ANY covenant to be morally questionable or bad.

[Raetary]

WoW righting has a tendency of making player actions realize others their mistakes (Suramar)

There's no better way to change someones mind than to brutally beat them up or sometimes straight up kill them and let their ghost/echo/timey-wimey leftover tell us how wrong their actions were.


Duh.

[Zero Wing]

Old ways? Force them? We only just met them! Besides, WoW righting has a tendency of making player actions realize others their mistakes (Suramar), so I wouldn't count much on Kyrians keeping with the old. Especially if they gonna be an AR.

My impression was that they've been doing things their own way (with a shared consciousness and the erasuer of the original personality, as I understand it) for almost literally forever. Is that not so? Oh, and make no mistake, the greatest power in the Universe of WoW is the Blizzard Writer. For that Entity, forcing anyone to take any action is a small thing.

[Makabreska]

There's no better way to change someones mind than to brutally beat them up or sometimes straight up kill them and let their ghost/echo/timey-wimey leftover tell us how wrong their actions were.


Duh.

Was talking more about them ditching the Well, but ok. :v

[Zero Wing]

Modern consumers are super fucking sensitive about morality in games where they can't decide what happens in the story. They are not going to allow ANY covenant to be morally questionable or bad.

You're basically correct on this, but I would argue that it's not even bad, per se. It's just something that is beyond the understanding and imagination of the modern video game audience. "Like bro, you can't be doing this, it's against the US Constitution or the UN Declaration of Human Rights or something I remember from He-Man cartoons or whatever."