9.0 General Discussion

[Ariamis]

Nah, I don't assume you're disinterested in the data. At this point I more presume that you're acting in bad faith or being contrarian, because at this juncture there's no actual reason anyone would defend the abilities being non-fluid in the first place. It's easier to allow flexibility in terms of relative balance and allows less issues with personal identity, class fantasy, aesthetic choices, and story when they clash too heavily with a game where player power is too influential relative to the community and overall investment

I’ve yet to see anything from you that isn’t rooted in questioning someone’s integrity. It’s a safe and defensible position, sure, but doesn’t help the discussion.

The point isn’t defending B’s decision. I can live either way, because it’s a video game and I’m stuck playing within the rules laid out for me.

The point is to challenge the doom narrative. That’s what I’m here for. Because the shit we’re all spouting doesn’t actually point out any balance issues. Just the potential for balance issues.

Keep in mind that the community’s argument a “feelsy” (as you’ve aptly described) one, that this decision is going to lead to degenerative gameplay and amplify the FOTM issue - based almost exclusively on expected incompetence (or malice, in your case)

It absolutely is a possible outcome. Maybe even probable.

But in absence of any actual targeted commentary, this argument just turns into “I wanna and they won’t let me.” That’s where we are.

Is this your first Beta? This is what we're going to get this early in the tuning pass. They may somehow get it right in the next 6 weeks. 16 years of evidence say otherwise. Until then, you are going to look at the limited data available, which is the only actual method of getting information on performance, and you're going to verbalize about the conclusions that are seen through the small sample size because the alternative is being quiet and having shit pass through. Blizzard's proven they are more than happy to allow for these things to go if people don't yell loud enough about it

So yeah, people are drawing hasty conclusions if you assume this is how the game is shipping, but it's also the only feasible conclusions at this point with what's available. Bug fixes, allowing basic shit like "Night Fae for Hunters is broken" to be addressed, and other various things are going to massively shift what this says, but it doesn't change that having these issues doesn't inspire much faith to begin with. Afterall, any coder will tell you that bugs don't get removed, they get moved somewhere else. Anyone who has played a Blizzard game will also tell you that tuning happens long after the first live patch, meaning your meaningful choice may get swatted.

We can’t pretend making observations on log data is proper analysis, so our insights are inherently flawed. I want some degree of self awareness when we start demanding balance based upon limited information. Very few of us seem willing to acknowledge that, compared to all possible permutations in controlled combat environments, we know nothing. We have even less data for the rest of the game as a whole.

So I challenge for meaningful application based discussion of the respective abilities, and nobody seems capable of providing any insight. I see #pulltheripcord, and balance is impossible, but nothing that even resembles a point-to-point comparison between abilities.

Sometimes I’ll get the excuse that the numbers aren’t done, but throughput is always in context of application, uptime, ease of use, CD timeliness, etc - If were not willing to discuss abilities in absence of their numbers tuning, we’re choosing to put ourselves in a position to wait and see. Slaughter, again, comes to mind. No amount of numbers tuning will change the fact that the ability is inherently flawed and has abysmally low options for value. No amount of numbers tuning changes that SBS is just the most flexible, high impact options for rogues.

Most covenant abilities serve a specific purpose, and their value can be aligned with an SP/AP modifier - we need to focus our attentions on the ones that don’t, instead of just saying “shit’s broke.”

They’re going ahead with this, due to good intentions or malice, whether we like it or not. Give something valuable, or give up.

And I think that's the biggest takeaway - "Why go through these really risky means for virtually minimal ends?" "What does having these abilities be tied to a story or flavor choice add?" "Isn't it contradictory that an expansion built around a return to class over spec...has abilities that will work better with certain specs?"

And nobody really ever answers these questions with anything other than "wait and see" or feelsy vagueness, because they don't care to. It's purely egocentric and driven by the schadenfreude of someone else's experience suffering for it, even though they're the ones dictating how someone is playing their character, not the other way around.

Even the excuse we were given for no cord existing - "certain abilities are buffed by certain conduits that are Covenant specific!" - is instantly fixed by putting those conduits on the non-Covenant reputation vendors for the same 4 factions anyway (The Wild Hunt, The Avowed, etc.), followed by locking out the Conduit on the soulbind if you're not presently using that ability. It's the little things: If you see blatant nonsense like that from last week's development update, it just adds fuel to the fire to believe that the reasoning given by the developers is entirely fraudulent. Why give lazy non-reasons unless you were trying to build a case for something you've committed to regardless of whether it's healthy?

This part of discussion is meaningful, and regrettably subjective. Unfortunately, you assume anyone who doesn’t implicitly agree with your position as wanting to cause you a negative experience. Trust me, it’s much more-so apathy than malice - my interest here is simply to force a discussion that isn’t stuck in a negative feedback loop.

They’ll always decide how someone plays the game. Every gameplay loop (WOW and otherwise) is based upon what we can and can’t do at any given moment. We’ll survive the decision either way.

It’s why we have 19 races and 12 classes. It’s why some people still play WW Monk or Shadow Priest on live. It’s why we lost our fucking minds over Tinker v Necromancer.

That flavour has value, “feelsy” or not. Not everyone is interested in playing this game by spreadsheet and website recommendations.

Until we get the full picture, we’re just gonna have to make the decisions we feel comfortable with. At least while it’s a pain in the ass, there’ll be enough of us who’ll just make do with the decisions we’ve made. That should be enough to shape the community.

The second the cord is pulled (and I fully expect it to be), the rest of the community is compelled to shift their behaviours, and we lose something from that.

You don’t see these things as valuable, or as an enhancement to your experience - that itself is fine.

Where I take issue is claiming anyone who finds value is operating in bad faith, or is a misguided devotee of a company trying to siphon as much money as they can out of the market.

Your arguments are just as full of wait and sees and presumptions as mine. I just want us to admit it. If our voice is going to be heard, we need to be better.

Or we can vote with our wallets and quit.

[Chickat]

The shitshow is that you can't choose the covenant you actually want when there is this huge difference between them. You have to pick one of the one or two actually good ones. Sucks to be you if your favorite covenant aesthetically or storywise is the one with worst ability that is a actual DPS loss to you.

And then there are gems like Paladins:



NONE of the specs share good covenant. Picking a Covenant on Paladin also locks your spec for the expansion.

I don't care about perfect balance. As long as the covenants are somewhat balanced I don't care. I might also pick whichever ability Is the most fun on average regardless of balance. I've mained ret for 10 years now. I can easily weather this minor storm. It's not going to be nearly as bad as Legion or BFA for alts or multispec.

[Vakir]

But in absence of any actual targeted commentary, this argument just turns into “I wanna and they won’t let me.” That’s where we are.

Looking at the full post, you know what, I've come around. I don't think you're operating from a negative place and you actually raise some good points.

I think my issue just partly boils down to that the full picture is, more or less, withheld. We only got an official concept of what conduits are in reference to the last press event. We knew far more about things like Sanctums, Conduits, and Soulbinds than they intended as a consequence of extensive datamining, but the reality was that a lot of the features and systems in place came about rather late in the game. When we're supplied with information at this juncture and are told that numbers tuning is in place 6-8 weeks out from release, it's a natural concern when we see the cracks forming when certain conduits weren't even available for testing until very recently.

In reference to your earlier comment on not wanting to strategize outside the game more than inside, comparing Aftershock and Condemn, I actually agree, which is why I feel like the position now actually means strategizing MORE outside of game. If you're heavily entrenched into a decision, it means you're more predisposed to wanting to make your choice based on things like performance or mechanics because you know it's not able to be adjusted with the same ease. When changes happen post-launch, it means that wanting to adjust based on this same thing is actually increasing the stress of making it difficult to change what spec you might be targeting or to reroll because of the amount of Renown catchup or Conduit grinding that might need to happen (we're still unsure of Conduit rankup distributions).

We can’t pretend making observations on log data is proper analysis, so our insights are inherently flawed. I want some degree of self awareness when we start demanding balance based upon limited information. Very few of us seem willing to acknowledge that, compared to all possible permutations in controlled combat environments, we know nothing. We have even less data for the rest of the game as a whole.

This is true, but it's also the best we have. Blizzard holds the keys to the kingdom in terms of data, and it's entirely on their end, but I'm struggling to think of many situations where community demand was directly misguided as compared to Blizzard's vision. There were positive and negative consequences, for sure - a Corruption vendor meant absolutely obscene combos that were perhaps never meant to be possible, but it also meant the bar for entry was less contingent on RNG or spending asinine amounts of gold. But I can't think of many situations where the community got what they wanted and it harmed the game, whereas developer vision has been littered with flaws, even if sometimes they knock it out the park.

With not a lot of targeted testing for raids, the data we have are looked at more like morsels rather than something that should be dismissed, because there's simply not a lot of gained faith, whether it's out of malice or incompetence. That's what I'm trying to get at - that the culture of a lot of WoW's player base, probably closer to 30% rather than 1%, is based in community cohesion rather than a cult of personality surrounding developers.

So I challenge for meaningful application based discussion of the respective abilities, and nobody seems capable of providing any insight. I see #pulltheripcord, and balance is impossible, but nothing that even resembles a point-to-point comparison between abilities.

There's always going to be meaningful applications of certain "less valued" abilities compared to the FOTM darlings, there's no question about it. Blizzard's already reverse-engineered some intended applications, sometimes to the detriment of certain fights (like the Stoneborne Generals intermission in Castle Nathria, Zzzzzzz). I think the issue is that the mindset of players cultivated for 16 years is going to be that they're going to be happy with what gives that benefit the most often or in the situations that call the most for it. Not all fights, dungeons, and zones are going to be equally difficult, which means even if Situation A favors Ability A, it still won't feel as good as B wanting B.

Is that partly on the players and that same cultivated mentality? I'd...argue no. I think that's in the DNA of the game. Even in Vanilla, respecs were possible if you could front the gold through farming. The opening of ease happened because of the player demand and the culture surrounding the flexibility of experiencing all a class was meant to offer. Now we're approaching an expansion priding itself on re-establishing class over spec identity, but this generally torpedoes that, because you won't enjoy certain other specializations as much. Are they gone? No. Are there meaningful applications? Yes, you are absolutely right. But it's a fly in the soup that never needed to be there and hasn't been for almost two decades. It is an invention.

Most covenant abilities serve a specific purpose, and their value can be aligned with an SP/AP modifier - we need to focus our attentions on the ones that don’t, instead of just saying “shit’s broke.”

They're out there. It might not be as reflective on the spreadsheet, but it's worthwhile to point out that it's a very macro view of a system encompassing 48 (whew!) abilities, 52 when you talk about signatures. In actual, official capacities on the forums, you will see very detailed feedback about the practical applications, and it's reflective across the board of much of the same data.

They’re going ahead with this, due to good intentions or malice, whether we like it or not. Give something valuable, or give up.

They’ll always decide how someone plays the game. Every gameplay loop (WOW and otherwise) is based upon what we can and can’t do at any given moment. We’ll survive the decision either way.

It’s why we have 19 races and 12 classes. It’s why some people still play WW Monk or Shadow Priest on live. It’s why we lost our fucking minds over Tinker v Necromancer.

That flavour has value, “feelsy” or not. Not everyone is interested in playing this game by spreadsheet and website recommendations.

This is a very new beast, though, relative to modern WoW. It's true that there were absolutely disgusting outliers in terms of racials, but it was in the last 4 years or so where throughput was balanced to 0.5% between one another and utility abilities hit enough nerfs where it wasn't obscene. Looking at something like the difference in races and classes and comparing them to the limitations on feedback loops inspires dread, not acceptance.

The thing is, when I look at a full picture of what Covenants could be, I feel so much lost potential. Character power is the absolute worst fucking way about it. Imagine if it was built properly into the story, where different NPCs and different quests would respond differently to you depending on your choice? Imagine if they vastly expanded the flavor of which you could approach certain major story beats based on your choice? None of this happens, though. The Covenants don't hate each other, the core story is the same, and I still earn actual fucking reputation with all of them, but apparently that's not good enough for them.

Instead, we have effectively a talent row with a baby gate on it. If we want to talk about meaningful gameplay and limitations, I think a place to start is just how much this lays bare how extremely limited WoW is as an RPG as soon as they try to dial up the amp up on it. The best RPGs have pillars of social, exploration, and combat. But WoW's core content will always just be relegated to combat, so they feel the need to slam player power into it for it to feel important...even though it'll always boil down to "which lets me perform my role best?" And that's where it falls apart.

The second the cord is pulled (and I fully expect it to be), the rest of the community is compelled to shift their behaviours, and we lose something from that.

This is where I don't see it, and I am reminded of Ion's assertion that someone wouldn't be rejected for making "the wrong choice" if they are unable to change that choice (which is absurd). We do, in fact, lose some of the diversity of these applications if people find a unanimously "right" choice. But the problem is that we gain more than we lose in the alternative - you have 3 more options of fun stuff to mess around with in Torghast. You have 3 more options on builds that you can mess with even if they are suboptimal rather than needing to lock yourself out for 2 weeks. You have, in many cases, that many more roles you can perform without feeling like your Covenant is less suited for it.

As much as it feels good to see that as a new identity in a game that might be hemorrhaging it, I'd strongly argue that the amount of fear of missing out and the buyer's remorse overtakes it. It's not that I don't see these things as valuable - it's that they are fundamentally at odds with this game. Some kind of wild, bold new WoW with permanent choices across the board and extremely complex systems that allow bold new choices on how to experience the game gets my blood pumping. But this just isn't it. This is a row of talents we haven't had in 2 expansions, only they couldn't even give us that.

Or we can vote with our wallets and quit.

As much as my posts may indicate otherwise? I really am excited for Shadowlands. A lot. I want to play it. I want to enjoy it. When I leave feedback, it's because I want the game to be the best it can be. But despite all that, I haven't bought Shadowlands, and the only reason I haven't is the sheer glut of systems that make me extremely wary. But I want to!

The problem is that when we throw our hands up and say the only option is to vote with our wallets (which to an extent is true), it leaves the door open for people to say "you aren't even playing the game!" as if it devalues the feedback. Then you're just a hater, ya see. I think voting with your wallet is important, especially with a corporation I've flatly stated I suspect bad faith and greed from, but I think voting with passion and cultivating a sense of discourse among the community is even moreso. When people understand why these decisions exist and they become loud enough, I do believe things can happen, and I do think there's only so much give that is allowed before they realize it's not in their best interest to allow some of these systems to launch as-is.

Especially when so much of that good faith from the people who like it are...woefully misinformed as to how minimal covenants actually create a sense of identity in your character anyway.

I don't care about perfect balance. As long as the covenants are somewhat balanced I don't care. I might also pick whichever ability Is the most fun on average regardless of balance. I've mained ret for 10 years now. I can easily weather this minor storm. It's not going to be nearly as bad as Legion or BFA for alts or multispec.

Not attacking you or anything, this is a perfectly valid and healthy POV to have on the game - just pointing this post out as a great example of the mentality in reference to the other post I'm replying to.

Someone who doesn't care about perfect balance, accepts somewhat balanced covenants, and will pick "whichever ability is most fun on average" is not going to be impacted directly by the decoupling of abilities.

The imaginary "storm" that must be weathered has no reason to exist. It is an invention of a problem.

[Blayze]

The turbulent turn this topic took tells tales too tedious to try tracking.

I'm glad I gave up raiding outside of LFR after Cata; don't need to give a shit about Covenant choices.

[Jastall]

worth noting that the guy who made the spreadsheet is banned from the Paladin discord per his own words (you can find it in the OP), with the implication that it was related to the sheet being very bad/misleading

It's telling that some of the comments in the document outright say that some abilities (such as the revamped Necrolord Banner for Warriors) have barely been tested or aren't even fully functional yet. Combined with the salty #pulltheripcord idiocy in the header and the simple fact that tuning is very much ongoing is enough to make me mostly disregard the sheet as opinion and not much more.

[Asphyx22]

Denathrius has hooves and horns, but is apparently not a demon despite very likely being a Nathrezim. So it's up in the air what the demonic traits of Nathrezim are (it may be wings, or Denathrius is hiding wings for whatever reason).

Good point. I do feel like he has ties in some way to them. I hope they manage to build The Jailer up better than they did N'Zoth. Perfectly wasted villain there.

[Nagawithlegs]

Good point. I do feel like he has ties in some way to them. I hope they manage to build The Jailer up better than they did N'Zoth. Perfectly wasted villain there.

Considering they are actually making a high def cinematic featuring him (something N'zoth never got) they actively want to focus on him in a way they didn't with N'zoth.

[TigTone]

Considering they are actually making a high def cinematic featuring him (something N'zoth never got) they actively want to focus on him in a way they didn't with N'zoth.

Imo I think the old gods will have their time in CGI when all 4 are resurrected in some Void lords expansion.

[Pebrocks The Warlock]

Imo I think the old gods will have their time in CGI when all 4 are resurrected in some Void lords expansion.

Why do that when the Void Lords could just send more Old Gods to Azeroth, fully powered.

[TigTone]

Why do that when the Void Lords could just send more Old Gods to Azeroth, fully powered.

Me personally would like to see all 4 return rather then have Blizz make up new ones.

[Phunkle]

I've seen some talk about a Jailer CGi over the last couple of pages, where did that come from?

[Pebrocks The Warlock]

Me personally would like to see all 4 return rather then have Blizz make up new ones.

Hydras in WoW have had a connection to the Old Gods so what they could do is bring all 4 back into one amalgamation, each with their own separate head.

- - - Updated - - -

I've seen some talk about a Jailer CGi over the last couple of pages, where did that come from?

Jailer CGI face.

[TigTone]

Hydras in WoW have had a connection to the Old Gods so what they could do is bring all 4 back into one amalgamation, each with their own separate head.

Now that would be a fun compromise and a fun raid fight if done right.

[Pebrocks The Warlock]

Now that would be a fun compromise and a fun raid fight if done right.

It would be the perfect time to bring Chromatus into WoW finally. I was so upset we never got to see him in Cataclysm.

[gunner_recall]

It would be the perfect time to bring Chromatus into WoW finally. I was so upset we never got to see him in Cataclysm.

Dude never really died so yeah, it would be perfect

Shame old gods got wasted on a single patch

[Pebrocks The Warlock]

While thinking about Dragons I had a thought; isn't the Heart of Azeroth basically a more powerful Demon/Dragon Soul? It has all 5 Aspect essences.

[TigTone]

While thinking about Dragons I had a thought; isn't the Heart of Azeroth basically a more powerful Demon/Dragon Soul? It has all 5 Aspect essences.

Yes, but its energy used up in the maw to allows us to escape.

[Pebrocks The Warlock]

Yes, but its energy used up in the maw to allows us to escape.

To activate the stone thing the First Ones made? I can't find any reference to the Heart on any videos. Was it added to the beta recently?

[TigTone]

To activate the stone thing the First Ones made? I can't find any reference to the Heart on any videos. Was it added to the beta recently?

I read it here from a post of a beta player, they could have made it up. /shrug

[TheFirstOnes]

I read it here from a post of a beta player, they could have made it up. /shrug

There's no mention of the Heart whatsoever.