An easy fix to save the story

[ausoin]

Instead of the Alliance forgiving genocide because one orc fells bad about it retcon a part of Elegy by having Teldrassil evacuated. Elune teleported them or some shit like that.

Maybe even go an extra mile by saying the Horde knew it was evacuated and Sylvanas burned it because it would still be a good symbol to demoralise the NE.

All it needs is a single twitter post.

[Varodoc]

That doesn't fix anything. The War of Thorns wasn't just the Burning of Teldrassil. The War of Thorns was also the slaughter that painted Ashenvale and Darkshore red with blood (not that I am saying that the useless night elves will remember that, but logically they should be mad even if no civilian died in Teldrassil). Teldrassil was just the end of it, there was a whole onslaught before getting to the capital (the parallels with the Scourge invasion of Quel'thalas come to mind). And we're talking about the first conflict of Darkshore here, not the second one where Sylvanas defiled several former Kaldorei by raising them as forsaken.

[Lothaeryn]

That doesn't fix anything. The War of Thorns wasn't just the Burning of Teldrassil. The War of Thorns was also the slaughter that painted Ashenvale and Darkshore red with blood (not that I am saying that the useless night elves will remember that, but logically they should be mad even if no civilian died in Teldrassil). Teldrassil was just the end of it, there was a whole onslaught before getting to the capital (the parallels with the Scourge invasion of Quel'thalas come to mind). And we're talking about the first conflict of Darkshore here, not the second one where Sylvanas defiled several former Kaldorei by raising them as forsaken.

Yep, they screwed the pooch in Narrative, I'm just waiting for them to fucking end it and give us our BS excuse to "redeem" Sylvanas just like Kerrigan. Exonerating yet another genocide by dinndunuffin orcs under her command.

Night Elves have had the shittiest lore development in any series I've ever seen, and I thought Draenei at the time before Legion got the shaft harder.

[Thetruth1400]

Yep, they screwed the pooch in Narrative, I'm just waiting for them to fucking end it and give us our BS excuse to "redeem" Sylvanas just like Kerrigan. Exonerating yet another genocide by dinndunuffin orcs under her command.

Yeah, I feel they're heading that way too. "Look it's not Garrosh 2.0, she's totally redeemed so everyone forgive her as she goes off to do this amazing thing for all of us!"

As a player (a relatively important player in the story with how we've been developed), I don't accept that. Likewise, our leaders shouldn't accept it either; There were real crimes committed here and they need to be paid for. Yes, we can stop hostilities towards each other, but the leaders and those directly under the leaders who issued the commands / followed them through / openly supported them all need to pay and the most egregious of those can only be paid for with their heads. As Anduin himself put it, "There can be no peace as long as Sylvanas leads the Horde."

As for the OP's suggestion, no that's just horrible story telling. "Oh all those people you literally saw burnt to death? Yeah, turns out you didn't see their fried corpses, it was just an illusion and Elune teleported everyone to safety but also told them they couldn't contact the survivors to let them know everything was okay."

[ausoin]

Yeah, I feel they're heading that way too. "Look it's not Garrosh 2.0, she's totally redeemed so everyone forgive her as she goes off to do this amazing thing for all of us!"

As a player (a relatively important player in the story with how we've been developed), I don't accept that. Likewise, our leaders shouldn't accept it either; There were real crimes committed here and they need to be paid for. Yes, we can stop hostilities towards each other, but the leaders and those directly under the leaders who issued the commands / followed them through / openly supported them all need to pay and the most egregious of those can only be paid for with their heads. As Anduin himself put it, "There can be no peace as long as Sylvanas leads the Horde."

As for the OP's suggestion, no that's just horrible story telling. "Oh all those people you literally saw burnt to death? Yeah, turns out you didn't see their fried corpses, it was just an illusion and Elune teleported everyone to safety but also told them they couldn't contact the survivors to let them know everything was okay."

Update the quest. Change that shit too.

[matrix123mko]

Instead of the Alliance forgiving genocide because one orc fells bad about it retcon a part of Elegy by having Teldrassil evacuated. Elune teleported them or some shit like that.

You Alliance(players and NPCs) are too emotional. Supporting Saurfang is very practical method of defeating Sylvanas. The war starts with 1:1 and ends at 1:3.

Also, if you don't want to forgive us, what about Sylvanas actually winning? Horde going after one sad orc just because they don't like Sylvanas' methods of killing Alliance dogs is too horrible writing.

[Super Dickmann]

The best available cop out is to have Tyrande shoot Saurfang and then N'zoth wreck both sides, preventing world peace but keeping both factions from immediately following up on the war because of their weakness. Sylvanas can fall down a well or something. For bonus points she can do it while pushing Anduin and Calia down the well with her for a redemptive moment.

[ausoin]

That doesn't fix anything. The War of Thorns wasn't just the Burning of Teldrassil. The War of Thorns was also the slaughter that painted Ashenvale and Darkshore red with blood (not that I am saying that the useless night elves will remember that, but logically they should be mad even if no civilian died in Teldrassil). Teldrassil was just the end of it, there was a whole onslaught before getting to the capital (the parallels with the Scourge invasion of Quel'thalas come to mind). And we're talking about the first conflict of Darkshore here, not the second one where Sylvanas defiled several former Kaldorei by raising them as forsaken.

So a couple of villages were burned. A far cry. Alliance never giving the options of peace because of a few villages would be illogical as well.

[Lothaeryn]

Yeah, I feel they're heading that way too. "Look it's not Garrosh 2.0, she's totally redeemed so everyone forgive her as she goes off to do this amazing thing for all of us!"

As a player (a relatively important player in the story with how we've been developed), I don't accept that. Likewise, our leaders shouldn't accept it either; There were real crimes committed here and they need to be paid for. Yes, we can stop hostilities towards each other, but the leaders and those directly under the leaders who issued the commands / followed them through / openly supported them all need to pay and the most egregious of those can only be paid for with their heads. As Anduin himself put it, "There can be no peace as long as Sylvanas leads the Horde."

As for the OP's suggestion, no that's just horrible story telling. "Oh all those people you literally saw burnt to death? Yeah, turns out you didn't see their fried corpses, it was just an illusion and Elune teleported everyone to safety but also told them they couldn't contact the survivors to let them know everything was okay."

The funny thing is that there was literally a narrative explanation to challenge this type of unethical standard if need be. We literally could have had Saurfang martyr himself in Mak'Gora against Sylvanas, showcase that she is too powerful or underhanded to be removed properly, and have Zekhan lead the resistance or something to garner support from Baine and Thrall; concluding in the same scenario they likely will unravel.

Its just annoying as fuck because none of the leaders will be held accountable for arbitrary bullshit like "We knew we couldn't oppose her directly"... Then what the fuck are you doing as leader of an entire Species/nation? If you are too weak to stop them, maybe have some proper checks and balances that prevent despots from committing war crimes on your watch? It only took the combined efforts of the Alliance and resistance Horde to stop the last despot who took the reigns, that literally happened a fucking YEAR ago in lore.

But we're talking about Warcraft here, a series that puts genocide on the same tier as 'rule of cool'...

[Aeula]

Easiest fix is having us take a massive hit from the Old Gods. If all our leaders are dead and the world ravaged and in chaos, even if we ultimately beat the old god, then everyone can safely ignore the rest of BfA.

[Varodoc]

So a couple of villages were burned. A far cry. Alliance never giving the options of peace because of a few villages would be illogical as well.

That is a very reductive logic to say the least. In plenty of wars only villages get involved. In fact, in most wars it is precisely the villages and small towns that get destroyed, and not the large capitals. Doesn't make it any better.

And judging by how Horde players are still mad about Camp Taurajo, I'd say that already one village is too much.

[ausoin]

You Alliance(players and NPCs) are too emotional. Supporting Saurfang is very practical method of defeating Sylvanas. The war starts with 1:1 and ends at 1:3.

Sylvanas isnt the main problem. She is just another product of the failure that is the Horde system.

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That is a very reductive logic to say the least. In plenty of wars only villages get involved. In fact, in most wars it is precisely the villages and small towns that get destroyed, and not the large capitals. Doesn't make it any better.

And judging by how Horde players are still mad about Camp Taurajo, I'd say that already one village is too much.

Still I think most would gladly accept it as long as Teldrassil was evacuated.

[matrix123mko]

Sylvanas isnt the main problem. She is just another product of the failure that is the Horde system.

So let's call it properly. Alliance players want to be aggressors.

[Varodoc]

Sylvanas isnt the main problem. She is just another product of the failure that is the Horde system.

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Still I think most would gladly accept it as long as Teldrassil was evacuated.

You're not considering the consequences. Great, the civilians of Teldrassil were evacuated just in time! Thank goodness they made it out of the fire alive!

Now what? Their home is in ruins, they have nowhere left to go, they are forced to live filthy refugees inside a Human metropolis, and they have been scorned. The result would be the same. Actually, as cynical as this might sound, the result would be even WORSE. Because now you'd have even more refugees in Stormwind, even more overpopulation. Basically the same problems that Stormwind should face in the lore right now, but increased tenfold because you'd have a lot more refugees.

[ausoin]

You're not considering the consequences. Great, the civilians of Teldrassil were evacuated just in time! Thank goodness they made it out of the fire alive!

Now what? Their home is in ruins, they have nowhere left to go, they are forced to live filthy refugees inside a Human metropolis, and they have been scorned. The result would be the same.

They lived in the wilds for thousands of years. Teldrassil was grown in Vanilla. And given how easily the forests could be regrown by Malfurion as seen in the Alliance won Darkshore warfront, its not going to be the end of the world. Undercity was destroyed by the explosives from goblins I believe so if all the civilians evacuated it would be a fair trade.

[Varodoc]

They lived in the wilds for thousands of years. Teldrassil was grown in Vanilla. And given how easily the forests could be regrown by Malfurion as seen in the Alliance won Darkshore warfront, its not going to be the end of the world. Undercity was destroyed by the explosives from goblins I believe so if all the civilians evacuated it would be a fair trade.

Even if that were true (then I'd have to wonder why there are so many refugees in Stormwind. And also the night elves still had towns in those wilds, and even the city of Moonglade, they didn't just live like cave men), that still doesn't change the fact that you can't just erase everything that happened before the burning itself.

[ausoin]

Even if that were true (then I'd have to wonder why there are so many refugees in Stormwind. And also the night elves still had towns in those wilds, and even the city of Moonglade, they didn't just live like cave men), that still doesn't change the fact that you can't just erase everything that happened before the burning itself.

You cant but again its still a far cry to Teldrassil. And again its not like the Horde wouldnt lose a capital too, Brill as well.

[matrix123mko]

Easiest fix is having us take a massive hit from the Old Gods. If all our leaders are dead and the world ravaged and in chaos, even if we ultimately beat the old god, then everyone can safely ignore the rest of BfA.

Yes. Then no one would be able to complain. Horde would be happy that they didn't become Alliance vassal. Alliance would be happy the Horde got hit hard and all its leaders are dead. Everyone would be happy that N'zoth is portrayed as something dangerous.

[Varodoc]

You cant but again its still a far cry to Teldrassil. And again its not like the Horde wouldnt lose a capital too, Brill as well.

And that should satisfy the kaldorei because...?

If you kill my friend, and one of your friend dies in a car crash, I'm not like "Well, your friend died too, so I forgive you". I'd still want revenge on you, even if we were "equal".

[OIS]

How about this: N'Zoth kills the raid in the final cutscene, then we wake up at the end of Legion, realizing the whole expansion was just a dream. The Zandalari and Kul Tirans joined us while we were asleep, if you want an explanation for that plot hole.