New leader for the Forsaken?

[moveth]

Im fully on board with the theory that the Horde and Alliance are dissolved following BFA, so yea, I don't see why not. With any luck we can abandon the stupid factions that do nothing but make it a tug-o-war of story telling for another 15 years. Edit: I realized I should just clarify im talking about Calia leading the forsaken. I havent read the rest of the thread yet >.>

[Mehrunes]

That's not really what it says, or at least that is not my reading of it. Specifically:

Several points to take in from that snippet. First, his punishment was not about the books themselves, it was the place that is specifically mentioned - that place being his former lodgings. Second, the confiscation of his books may or may not have anything to do with their substance, which is unknown to us; Parqual was by trade a historian who loved books - punishing him for his apparent transgression here would involve the confiscation of his treasured tomes regardless of their nature. Thirdly, the person or persons admonishing him remark "only the history of the Undercity matters now," the last word showing a demarcation of what had been and what now was. The Undercity is their home now, not Lordaeron proper - or more to the point, the Undercity is Lordaeron now, in that the world above (the world where the Banshee Queen does not hold the most sway) is not their place. He may as well have said "forget your old and useless Human life and embrace the Forsaken you now are." That is the society of the Sylvanas of the modern era.

If it's about the place that's specifically mentioned then how comes it's not the reference to Undercity in the very same sentence? Into which he had to smuggle books? With smuggling being the illegal activity mentioned and as such obviously what he was being punished for? And if it's so unknown whether the content of the book had anything to do with his punishment why was he told that there is no need to remember the human history of this place upon the confiscation of his books? And Sylvanas holds so little sway in the ruins of Lordaeron city above the Undercity that she used that very spot as the place to celebrate the Forsaken breaking free from the Scourge to hype them up. For years after Edge of Night.

"This place" is referring to his former lodgings, the place he was not supposed to be, not Lordaeron as a nation-state. He was punished for the appearance of attempting to re-embrace or reconnect with his Human life (context given by the previous paragraphs discussing his wife Mina and his daughter who we meet later on), memories he contrasts with his dreary existence in his Undercity abode. You're focusing on the books to the exclusion of all the other context here that actually circumscribes the nature of his supposed misdemeanor - it wasn't about the books, and their confiscation was just a punishment for the breaking of the imposed social taboo: that of trying to rekindle a connection to their Human past. Talking about Lordaeron, or even its history, is fine in the context of underscoring the current Forsaken society - so long as it is one way connection from there to their current state Sylvanas is in full support of it.

If it was about the place and not, you know, the illegal activity of smuggling, then why would there be need to emphasize that he must not remember the human history of that place? If the place was forbidden because of how human and past-live it is, that remark would have been redundant. So how about, instead of engaging in stretching worthy of the child of Mr Fantastic and Elastagirl, the place actually referred to Undericty, i.e. the place into which he was smuggling books, for which he got punished?

She wants them deadened to their former lives (she says as much in "Before the Storm"), the Human part of them flensed away and replaced with a cold-hearted and single-minded devotion to the Forsaken state (and most importantly, to her). This idea is also explored in micro all the way back in Cata, when Sylvanas uses it as a reason to imprison Koltira for several years in an attempt to fix his "weakness" in the form of his continued friendship with Thassarian.

Obviously her imprisonment of Koltira had nothing to do with him making an unauthorized truce with the enemy he has been ordered to destroy, which cost Forsaken lives as humans consequently shat on that truce.

Sylvanas' return to the Eastern Kingdom coincides with the beginning or middle of the campaign in Gilneas, and part of the quests in Silverpine involve her demonstrating the powers of the very Val'kyr she had just brought back from Northrend with her letting us know exactly when it is staged. I highly doubt Sylvanas waited two years to intercede in the Gilneas campaign (based on what the Val'kyr had shown her), it seems very obvious that the events of the Silverpine quests dovetail almost immediately after her return to the Eastern Kingdoms and she moves straight to Silverpine and Greymane Wall at speed to stop Garrosh's mismanagement of her forces before it is too late.

It's weird that you on one hand say Edge of Night took place just before Silverspine and on the other hand say it was either at start or middle of the Gilnean campaign when Silverpine was already the twilight of that campaign. By the time of Silverpine most Gilneas fled the continent, Alliance got briefly involved and then Silverpine concluded with the surrender of GLF stragglers.

Besides, Edge of Night makes it clear that it takes place at the actual start of the campaign. First of all, Sylvanas tells Garrosh that if he wished to use the Forsaken then the war will be fought her way. If that takes place before Silverpine, i.e. way into the war, that remark would make no sense as by that time Garrosh would have used her people aplenty. Sylvanas also mentions that she's gathering reinforcements at Deathknell, with Lydon thinking to himself how there should be none there. An obvious reference to Sylvanas using the Val'kyr. With some Val'kyr floating around Sylvanas in that scene too. Except the Val'kyr tasked with resurrection at Deathknell were Agatha, Daschla and Arthura. The same Val'kyr that assist Sylvanas throughout Silverpine questline. If those three were at Deathknell when Sylvanas arrived at Greymane Wall yet Sylvanas still had some Val'kyr with her, obviously she had other Val'kyr in that scene.

Thirdly, she tells him she will invade by sea instead. What do we see in Gilneas questline? Forsaken invading by sea. We don't see them in Silverpine questline, even when we venture into Gilneas in some quests. More than that, the ships were tasked with diverting the attention of the Gilnean capital. The capital that was already Forsaken controlled at the start of Silverpine story after Genn fled and abandoned the city near the end of Gilnean questline. With SI:7 arriving shortly in submarines to catch the Forsaken off-guard after Silverpine started and helping GLF recapture it. Furthermore, she tells Garrosh that Gilneas will fall. And, again, as far as the Forsaken knew, at the beginning of Silverpine they controlled it and were only dealing with GLF guerrilla fuckery.

Finally, before she even arrives Garrosh is struggling with his breaching the wall idiocy because of how well-manned the wall is. That isn't the case in the Silverpine questline either. Then there's the part where Garrosh and his forces already crawled back to Orgrimmar in the meantime and he had to be teleported to witness Sylvanas' presentation.

Also, @Super Dickmann said nothing about Sylvanas waiting two years to intercede in Invasion of Gilneas.

"Wolfheart" takes place during Cata according to its own overleaf: "In the wake of the Cataclysm, conflict has engulfed every corner of Azeroth." Sylvanas also doesn't appear in "Wolfheart" in any capacity, she is only mentioned. The Gilneas campaign is ongoing when "Edge of Night" takes place, as Garrosh is literally at the Gilnean Front attempting to use the Forsaken as shock troops to create an opening wedge (while Apothecary Lydon wants to use the Blight as opposed to his own people's lives to do so). "Edge of Night" is very obviously set in the opening days of the Gilnean campaign, and the Silverpine quests concern Sylvanas' takeover of operations there and the conclusion of the campaign (e.g. her "death" and resurrection by the sacrifice of three of her newly-acquired Val'kyr).

Taking place in the wake of the Cataclysm the event (as that's obviously what the overleaf refers to) doesn't mean it takes place during the events portrayed in the Cataclysm the expansion. Cataclysm the expansion makes it clear that Cataclysm the event happened a bit before the start of various questlines. Anyway, the invasion of Ashenvale portrayed in Wolfheart sets the stage for Ashenvale questlines in Cataclysm. As for the relation to Edge of Night, Wolfheart concerns Worgen's plight of rejoining the Alliance, which became a topic after their exodus from Gilneas. Exodus that ended with Sylvanas temporarily capturing the capital city of Gilneas. The same capital she tried to divert the attention of with her fleet upon her return to Lordaeron in Edge of Night. And, again, the opening days of the Gilnean campaign are the subject of the Gilneas questline, not the Silverpine one.

[cparle87]

The forsaken would probably also view her as an extension of her brother who caused the whole mess in the first place.

Yeah, let's completely overlook the fact that the Ner'zhul Lich King, the Plague of Undead, the annihilation of Lordaeron, and genocide of the high elves and destruction of the Sunwell, was all according to a Legion plan. It wasn't until after all that was done did Ner'zhul strike out on his own.

It's actually one of the biggest mysteries in my mind whether Kael'thas knew that he was serving the guy who masterminded his people's genocide (Kil'jaeden). Did he not know, in which case he's an even more tragic character. Or did he know and just not care in his power mad rage, in which case he's lost all sympathy.

[Soon-TM]

Im fully on board with the theory that the Horde and Alliance are dissolved following BFA, so yea, I don't see why not. With any luck we can abandon the stupid factions that do nothing but make it a tug-o-war of story telling for another 15 years. Edit: I realized I should just clarify im talking about Calia leading the forsaken. I havent read the rest of the thread yet >.>

Imo the factions ought to have been dissolved, or at least severely diminished, after Legion. It was the ideal setup: the Alliance had pretty much forgiven (it's arguable whether there were any reasons to actually ask for forgiveness though, but that's another story) the Horde at the end of MoP, Vol'jin was a quite cool guy, and both Alliance and Horde champions and figureheads had been fighting the Legion shoulder to shoulder - and not only on the actual war fronts, but also in their respective Class Halls.

But instead, they went with ZoMg TeH REtuRn To WaRCafT RoOtS gUYz!! and gave us one of the most idiotic and senseless faction wars ever. Even MoP made more sense than this.

[Alpharius]

she and uther the redeemed will fix the diet coke undeads

[Lyssander]

A Menethil ruling over forsaken would be such a spit to the face of the entire race that I am 50% sure Blizzard will do it. After all Natalie Seline got to come back as a living human, even after spending years in a grave.

[matrix123mko]

What was it? I can't recall it ATM...

@Mehrunes, looks like sadorcs aren't enough, so Blizzard has added sadfaken as well /headwall

Of course, no one noticed because everyone busy complaining it is a horse.

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Imo the factions ought to have been dissolved, or at least severely diminished, after Legion. It was the ideal setup: the Alliance had pretty much forgiven (it's arguable whether there were any reasons to actually ask for forgiveness though, but that's another story) the Horde at the end of MoP, Vol'jin was a quite cool guy, and both Alliance and Horde champions and figureheads had been fighting the Legion shoulder to shoulder - and not only on the actual war fronts, but also in their respective Class Halls.

But instead, they went with ZoMg TeH REtuRn To WaRCafT RoOtS gUYz!! and gave us one of the most idiotic and senseless faction wars ever. Even MoP made more sense than this.

Yes, it was a perfect moment for ending the faction war. We just needed Blizzard to move Genn into the backstage and maybe hit Jaina with villain bat, in case they wanted her to come back. Alleria could have been written differently aswell. They could have made her think about her allegiances when she realises who is the warchief.

Now it seems that they want to end faction war for some time but is an horrible execution. It really looks as if they wanted us all to hate the factions so much that we will beg them to remove the factions once for all. The key problem is that not only we will pay the price of horrible expansion(although Zandalar and Kul Tiras were fine) and the new order will be ruled by Alliance.

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she and uther the redeemed will fix the diet coke undeads

That's how the tauren looked like in Cataclysm.

[Grazrug]

Say no to restored lordaeron for humans. Humans gets catered enough in this game. Give the lands back to the trolls instead like it used to be, before human invaders forcefully took it.

[Varodoc]

A Menethil ruling over forsaken would be such a spit to the face of the entire race that I am 50% sure Blizzard will do it. After all Natalie Seline got to come back as a living human, even after spending years in a grave.

Your family name shouldn't define you as a person. Arthas was the exception, not the rule. All Menethils before him were good and noble rulers, with the fair Terenas ruling with justice for 70 years.

[Super Dickmann]

Several points to take in from that snippet. First, his punishment was not about the books themselves, it was the place that is specifically mentioned - that place being his former lodgings. Second, the confiscation of his books may or may not have anything to do with their substance, which is unknown to us; Parqual was by trade a historian who loved books - punishing him for his apparent transgression here would involve the confiscation of his treasured tomes regardless of their nature. Thirdly, the person or persons admonishing him remark "only the history of the Undercity matters now," the last word showing a demarcation of what had been and what now was. The Undercity is their home now, not Lordaeron proper - or more to the point, the Undercity is Lordaeron now, in that the world above (the world where the Banshee Queen does not hold the most sway) is not their place. He may as well have said "forget your old and useless Human life and embrace the Forsaken you now are." That is the society of the Sylvanas of the modern era.

You are right that there is no confirmation that the punishment was not for the books themselves, I even acknowledged this in my second paragraph here. I do in fact note that these were separate moments. Mind, the time period remains indefinite and I brought up in said paragraph that the smuggling of books may itself be a crime as Parqual hires adventurers to do so. This fits, as within the book, exiting the Undercity (except I guess on some official task?) is banned. However, my points about Lordaeron remain and I think your reading of the text is either charitable or very narrow. In isolation, the guards are punishing him for going back to his old life, but he had to sneak out in order to go to this place already, implying a denial of free access to upper Lordaeron, and both the guards' comment that the history of this place and his own thoughts earlier that Lordaeron is of the past and they must think only of the Undercity now, reinforce that any connection to their human lives is strongly discouraged, even forbidden.

You're focusing on the books to the exclusion of all the other context here that actually circumscribes the nature of his supposed misdemeanor - it wasn't about the books, and their confiscation was just a punishment for the breaking of the imposed social taboo: that of trying to rekindle a connection to their Human past. Talking about Lordaeron, or even its history, is fine in the context of underscoring the current Forsaken society - so long as it is one way connection from there to their current state Sylvanas is in full support of it. She wants them deadened to their former lives (she says as much in "Before the Storm"), the Human part of them flensed away and replaced with a cold-hearted and single-minded devotion to the Forsaken state (and most importantly, to her). This idea is also explored in micro all the way back in Cata, when Sylvanas uses it as a reason to imprison Koltira for several years in an attempt to fix his "weakness" in the form of his continued friendship with Thassarian.

Sylvanas doesn't imprison Koltira for trying to reconnect with his former life. She punishes him for essentially spoiling her plan and allowing Thassarian to escape. Koltira isn't even Forsaken. She otherwise encourages reconnecting with their former lives as her entire claim and the ones other Forsaken follow is continuity between who they used to be - the abused people of Lordaeron, and who they still are - those same people, now rejected by the living, but who still have lives of their own and who's claim continues as they still have rights. This is mirrored in other relevant Forsaken NPCs. BTS lacks such nuance. All connection with one's old life is prohibited. You may be correct about the books, which I acknowledged in the other one - were they books that weren't his personal property, he might've been fine. Keyword being might, he still needed adventurers to smuggle them, meaning a prohibition from the freedom of movement and the ban on anything Lordaeronian is both indefinite in terms of timeframe and absolute.

I think you're confusing Sylvanas' "flash-forward" vision/dream during her time in the afterlife in "Edge of Night" with the actual events of the Gilneas campaign - at no point in the actual events is the Forsaken state "near collapse." Sylvanas sees a vision of what would happen if Garrosh's strategies are unimpeded by her presence, however, and it ends up with the bulk of the Forsaken sacrificed at Gilneas and left as easy pickings for the Scarlets and the Alliance presence in the Eastern Kingdom. That's not the present, however; it's a possible future and it doesn't actually happen as Sylvanas returns with the Val'kyr in tow and forces Garrosh to stand down and let her execute the Gilneas campaign her way - a way that doesn't involve the Forsaken being used in a way that will gut their standing forces unnecessarily. Sylvanas' return to the Eastern Kingdom coincides with the beginning or middle of the campaign in Gilneas, and part of the quests in Silverpine involve her demonstrating the powers of the very Val'kyr she had just brought back from Northrend with her letting us know exactly when it is staged. I highly doubt Sylvanas waited two years to intercede in the Gilneas campaign (based on what the Val'kyr had shown her), it seems very obvious that the events of the Silverpine quests dovetail almost immediately after her return to the Eastern Kingdoms and she moves straight to Silverpine and Greymane Wall at speed to stop Garrosh's mismanagement of her forces before it is too late. Substantial changes to a society take time to implement, as well, and one expansion is insufficient - and it's not really even necessary to bottle it that way in the first place, since after the Gilneas campaign is done she all the time in the world to start instituting social reforms and consolidate her people more efficiently under her banner. Stillwater is also not an example of "sectarian argument" as it is quite obvious that Stillwater was insane to begin with, and supposedly killed by his own people due to that insanity. He was just rationalizing his insane actions with obtuse metaphors and similarly disjointed rationales.

You are wrong. @Mehrunes explains it in detail, but I also will. This is complicated, so I'm not surprised you're wrong, but to fully understand the story here you have to both read the supplemental materials and play both sides. I am not telling you it took two years for Sylvanas to get involved in Gilneas, but that Cataclysm and the events in it took two years and that is plenty of time to institute the changes we see with our own eyes as compared to their pre-Cata existence and how these changes are visibly not what BTS tells us was always the Forsaken situation.

Edge of Night is among the very first things to happen in the Cataclysm timeframe. Gilneas has not yet been breached at all. Garrosh is failing to do this and the Forsaken lack leadership, allowing him to control it fully and walk all over their representatives. Hence the comment about the Forsaken being near collapse, politically. There is no mention of worgen being out yet, and Garrosh is still the one in command of the invasion. Sylvanas only returns at the very tail end. Then she takes over, and they do the invasion her way, with Garrosh leaving and Sylvanas' comment about reinforcements from Deathknell indicating that at that stage, she's sent the val'kyr to Tirisfal. But Tirisfal isn't the immediate continuation. Why? Because the Gilnean worgen aren't out yet.

What is next is the second portion of the worgen comic book and the Alliance Gilneas worgen intro zone. This depicts the actual first invasion, led by Sylvanas now, under the oversight of Garrosh's first official - that random general guy we never see again. There are no val'kyr in that zone, nor any necromancy, and the Alliance only come in at the very end. This is when the Gilneans are known to be worgen and know who is attacking them. This is also when the Forsaken achieve the state of Gilneas we see later on, namely essentially taking over with many retreating, excluding the Bloodfang pack and what would become the GLF. The Forsaken win, and Sylvanas exits. This is when we move to Tirisfal.

In Tirisfal we no longer have a Forsaken state incapable of sustaining itself, completely compliant with Garrosh but already raising by the val'kyr, a demonstration of their new focus on free will, but also their militancy. The 'new Forsaken' that the NPC who sends you to Brill tells you to see. This is also where you find SI:7 and Gilnean infiltrators, which shows both that at that point Gilneas proper has already fallen, the worgen are unveiled since the NPCs show awareness of them as an Alliance foe and that Alliance and Gilneas cooperation has intensified. In other words, this likely takes place after or concurrent to Wolfheart, as that is when the worgen are accepted by the Alliance and the room for such cooperation appears.

Afterwards, we have the Horde Silverpine story. Garrosh has to be portalled in to witness Sylvanas now publicly showing her Val'kyr and raising the dead. Sylvanas explains the changes and her new raison d'etre as well as the public Forsaken position in the quest Lordaeron and this is no longer the start of the invasion - the wall has been breached, the Forsaken are dominant, but now the worgen are pushing back, both the GLF, their allies in the Bloodfang Pack and now the Alliance navy. This is a different, later stage of war than what we saw before.

Hillsbrad and WPL don't require this kind of in-depth view. At this point the new status quo is the default and there's room to examine its elements - Stillwater shows the differentiation between the Forsaken and the Scourge, i.e their allowance of free will for those who are lasting members of their society, and the exclusivity that their raising is done through Val'kyr, to contrast with Stillwater. It shows their relationship with the Horde - both Garrosh's Horde, who's representative Cromush has basically gone native and Drek'thar, for whom what is an ascendant time for the Forsaken identity and state is something that disgusts him, because viewed from the outside it's a pitiless crusade against others. WPL is a show of their territorial claims and their incompatibility with the living. Back when they had no home and only Arthas was their goal, they could team up with the then Argent Dawn more freely. Now, the mixture of their Lordaeronian nationalist plan having them claim all lands of the former kingdom as their own and their desire for continued existence meaning they have to blight land to deny it to the living, this relationship is strained.

Throughout all this though, you now have people wandering the ruins and performing fun every day things, you have Hallow's End with new dialogue to show it's a continued Forsaken holiday and you have recurring, examined themes. Lordaeron nationalism, the value of undeath, the desire to continue existing not just projected by Sylvanas onto others but by the Forsaken themselves and the implications of all this on themselves and others is explored. I seriously recommend for you, or really anyone interested in the Forsaken, to play through all this again, it is the best of Forsaken content, short of parts of Vanilla which takes a more personal lens and it's night and day with what's in BTS.

[Asotcha]

Yes. Calia doesn't care about Alliance or Horde, she is only concerned about her people. That's a big foreshadowing, if you ask me.

I'm really interested to see what happens with the forsaken culturally once they have a leader who actually gives a shit about them as people.

[Super Dickmann]

I'm really interested to see what happens with the forsaken culturally once they have a leader who actually gives a shit about them as people.

Calia didn't do shit for fifteen years because she was too busy getting porked by footmen and hiding. It took a windchime telling her to do it for her to do anything. Calia views the Forsaken as pitiable sadsacks she has to save (from themselves). She's not wrong, mind you, that's what post-BTS Forsaken are.

If you want a sneak peak though, just go to Stormwind or read a story about Anduin, and mentally replace the humans with identical humans but without elbows and with 100% more sadness.

[Varodoc]

But does Calia give a shit or does she just feel she has a royal duty to the people of Lordaeron in an abstract way? Would we ever see Calia caring for Forsaken in the way we've seen Voss?

Does it really matter? It's not like you need the love of the people, you just need to keep them at bay. Realizing that it is your duty to rule is already a merit by itself, since there are a lot of rulers (cough cough Thrall cough cough) who would rather hide like cowards instead of leading as they are meant to.

[Lyssander]

Your family name shouldn't define you as a person. Arthas was the exception, not the rule. All Menethils before him were good and noble rulers, with the fair Terenas ruling with justice for 70 years.

I agree. Arthas was talented, powerful, interesting - truly a black sheep of the family. Calia on the other hand was so useless that even her father saw no better use for her than to become genetic currency for some noble to use.

[ilgynoth]

I dont understand why People even discussing or worry about it.

Calia is set up as an Allied Race Leader. She wont rule the Forsaken Horde. This is not going to happen.
She will rule the AR Alliance Forsaken.

[Toppy]

Calia being the head of the Forsaken would hilariously out of touch. Just when you thought they couldnt get dumber, they push through something that would be hugely unpopular with both Horde and Alliance.

[Alpharius]

Of course, no one noticed because everyone busy complaining it is a horse.

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Yes, it was a perfect moment for ending the faction war. We just needed Blizzard to move Genn into the backstage and maybe hit Jaina with villain bat, in case they wanted her to come back. Alleria could have been written differently aswell. They could have made her think about her allegiances when she realises who is the warchief.

Now it seems that they want to end faction war for some time but is an horrible execution. It really looks as if they wanted us all to hate the factions so much that we will beg them to remove the factions once for all. The key problem is that not only we will pay the price of horrible expansion(although Zandalar and Kul Tiras were fine) and the new order will be ruled by Alliance.

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That's how the tauren looked like in Cataclysm.

At least Tauren have an unique identity. The horde undead are budget scourge who keep crying that they have free will everytime blizz tries to add mind control.

It’s the only fanbase whinier than night elf and that their thematic is that they are the scourge in boring and without any cool shit doesn’t help.

It’s a waste of space race.

[Swnem]

Calia being the head of the Forsaken would hilariously out of touch. Just when you thought they couldnt get dumber, they push through something that would be hugely unpopular with both Horde and Alliance.

That is common misconception. Forsaken players are not the forsaken lore. What you guys want doesn't matter. You are not the characters of the lore. It has to make sense for them, not you. Calia makes all sense from what we learned in the book. Edge lord players don't like? Too bad. It's not about making sense to you, but it's about making sense to the characters in the lore. The ex lordeanron residents wich they were in their previous life and about their still alive residents they would like to be with again.

[ilgynoth]

That is common misconception. Forsaken players are not the forsaken lore. What you guys want doesn't matter. You are not the characters of the lore. It has to make sense for them, not you. Calia makes all sense from what we learned in the book. Edge lord players don't like? Too bad. It's not about making sense to you.

thats what you say, but then we have the Sylvanas loyalist questline, added last minute after the twitter shitstorm. Too bad for you, looks like Blizzard cares about the edge lord players

[Varodoc]

That is common misconception. Forsaken players are not the forsaken lore. What you guys want doesn't matter. You are not the characters of the lore. It has to make sense for them, not you. Calia makes all sense from what we learned in the book. Edge lord players don't like? Too bad. It's not about making sense to you.

I'm actually not certain what Forsaken players want. Some of them want to be villains, while others complain that Blizzard is villain batting Sylvanas. It's impossible to satisfy them.