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  1. #21
    Getting into 10's 101, a guide to returning or new players:

    1. Use 200 bucks for 10 tokens worth of gold and buy a 10's world tour (1 token worth of gold per dungeon).
    1.5. Make sure the boosters are mostly using the same armor class as you do and get as much gear traded to as possible.
    2. Wait for next reset. You'll be now rocking ilvl 420+ (with suboptimal stats most likely) and have a 1k+ score which enables you to sneak yourself into further 10's even if you don't know shit about them.
    3. Pug yourself through 10's as much as you want and be happy

  2. #22
    It's mainly about being in the top percentiles of ilvl and rio score rather than what is required for the dungeon, when it comes to pugging dungeons or raids. As opposed to what is actually required for the content. You can get a little leeway as a desired role like tank or healer at certain times of the day

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by ThrashMetalFtw View Post
    You can comfortably do 10s with iLvl 400 (that's when I usually start jumping into them on alts). You obviously won't compete with a 430 Dps in the group, but a full grp of iLvl 400s can easily do 10s if you have some of knowledge of the dungeons (what to interrupt, routes), and any decent skill at playing the game.

    Now, about what iLvl people are actually asking for in pugs, that's something completely different...
    Not trying to be a dick, but I don't believe you. I think some players could be right around 400 and be fine (dh/outlaw) but I think a whole group of 400's has virtually no chance of timing a 10. Would be easy to prove me wrong ... raider.io records the ivl of the participants at the time of the run.

    Maybe part of my perspective is that someone who is around 400 right now would tend to be bad and/or have wonky gear. Still, I don't buy it. Regardless of how well you know a dungeon you still have to be able to pull the dps to go fast enough.

  4. #24
    Just run a bunch of 8s. You'll get a bunch of 425 gear while being able to time them fairly easy.
    No collusion. No obstruction.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Trend View Post
    Not trying to be a dick, but I don't believe you. I think some players could be right around 400 and be fine (dh/outlaw) but I think a whole group of 400's has virtually no chance of timing a 10. Would be easy to prove me wrong ... raider.io records the ivl of the participants at the time of the run.

    Maybe part of my perspective is that someone who is around 400 right now would tend to be bad and/or have wonky gear. Still, I don't buy it. Regardless of how well you know a dungeon you still have to be able to pull the dps to go fast enough.
    I'd be inclined to agree. Skill can compensate for a lot, but at some point you just need to put out numbers. A group of skilled 400s can COMPLETE any M+10, and without much difficulty. But TIMING it is a different matter. Now, I wouldn't exclude the possibility that a perfect group of 400s could still do it if it was some kind of personal challenge (especially if they grind for things like sockets in gear) but as a generalized, flat statement, I don't think "a group of 400s can comfortably time 10s" would hold any water.

    That being said, I do agree with the sentiment that M+ is above all about doing it right. Many highly ranked M+ players don't actually have super absurd ilvls. And gear does help a lot, absolutely - but what's most important is that you have the right strategy, and handle the mechanics right.

    I've done many M+10s on alts that were in the 418-423 range, which is really just gear you get thrown at you for basically free. Even brand-new 120 characters can get to 415 within a few days without too much trouble, and 415 is definitely enough to do a +10 without too much of a hassle (though it varies a little with role). Heck, some specs (like Outlaw) can probably school people in higher ilvl brackets quite handily. The trick is getting INVITED more so than succeeding in the run

    Also, I personally find Beguiling not too bad of an affix at all. Yes it's no Reaping, but Reaping was massively undertuned and is hardly anything to go by. For anyone that's in the loop of how to approach a dungeon, Beguiling will not be a big problem. There's an iffy pull every now and then, but then again that's sort of the point behind this affix isn't it.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by ceall View Post
    Getting into 10's 101, a guide to returning or new players:

    1. Use 200 bucks for 10 tokens worth of gold and buy a 10's world tour (1 token worth of gold per dungeon).
    1.5. Make sure the boosters are mostly using the same armor class as you do and get as much gear traded to as possible.
    2. Wait for next reset. You'll be now rocking ilvl 420+ (with suboptimal stats most likely) and have a 1k+ score which enables you to sneak yourself into further 10's even if you don't know shit about them.
    3. Pug yourself through 10's as much as you want and be happy
    ah yes, the thing that totally happens all the time and is completely a normal, everyday thing to see

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Thor79 View Post
    Question - ilvl for higher key mythics in S3
    Find a guild or group of players that runs keys. Ilvl isn't a good determinant of skill (even less so in Battle for Azeroth). If you can't or won't find a group, then start with lower keys and work your way up to build your Raider.io score. It still isn't a good determinant of skill on its own either, but a decent combo of both is enough for most pugs.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by apples View Post
    ah yes, the thing that totally happens all the time and is completely a normal, everyday thing to see
    I boosted quite a lot early BFA (To get gold for the AH mount), and while it does happen it doesn't happen that much like you say.
    Most runs were just people that were looking to get their weekly done. But occasionally you would get the people that bought 5-10 runs with armor stacked players.
    We did do a lot of HC raid boosts with severe armor stacking, Id say thats probably a cheaper option as well. It just wont get your r.io score up.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Trend View Post
    Not trying to be a dick, but I don't believe you. I think some players could be right around 400 and be fine (dh/outlaw) but I think a whole group of 400's has virtually no chance of timing a 10. Would be easy to prove me wrong ... raider.io records the ivl of the participants at the time of the run.

    Maybe part of my perspective is that someone who is around 400 right now would tend to be bad and/or have wonky gear. Still, I don't buy it. Regardless of how well you know a dungeon you still have to be able to pull the dps to go fast enough.
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    I'd be inclined to agree. Skill can compensate for a lot, but at some point you just need to put out numbers. A group of skilled 400s can COMPLETE any M+10, and without much difficulty. But TIMING it is a different matter.
    This is easy to check. In Season 2 the multipliers for various M+ levels were:
    +12 = 216% (= base 100% +116%)
    +13 = 233%
    +14 = 252%
    +15 = 272%
    +16 = 294%
    +17 = 317%
    +18 = 346%
    +19 = 370%
    +20 = 400%
    +21 = 432%

    In Season 3 the multiplier for M+10 is: 214% = 100+114%. But the base difficulty also increased by 1.3, so in terms of Season 2 numbers we have 214%*1.3=279%. So the base multipliers for current +10 are roughly same as for +15 in Season 2. Could anyone time +15 in ilvl 400 gear in Season 2?

    The first week of Season 2 was Fortified-Bursting-Quaking-Reaping (that's one week before mythic raid opened, when ilvl was capped at something like 385 or 390). The second week of Season 2 was Tyrannical-Raging-Volcanic-Reaping (that's mythic raid opening week, when top players were around 400-405 average ilvl). It only remains to check whether anyone timed keys at around +15 these weeks in roughly ilvl 400 gear. If you think that reaping was much easier than beguiling, then just bump the requirement and see if people were timing keys several levels higher than +15 on those weeks.

    I timed several +14s on HC week in 385-390 geared group, and I timed several +16/+17 keys on mythic raid week in groups with average group ilvl between 395-400. And we did not try to push on either week (those are gear farm weeks, pushing is pointless). So it should be easy to open any top player and find timed +19/+20 keys on those weeks... Let me find some.

    On HC week of Season 2 groups timed AD+17, UR+17, KR+15, FH+18, WM+17, ML+16 (and so on) with average group ilvl around 391-392.

    On mythic raid week of Season 2 groups timed WM+19 (ilvl 402), Siege+19 (ilvl 402), UR+20 (ilvl 402), ML+19 (ilvl 401), KR+18 (ilvl 402). And if you allow ilvl 404-405 groups, you can find a lot of timed 20-21 keys that week: TD+21, Siege+21, FH+21, AD+21, and so on...

    Let me put this in perspective. Here is how current M+ levels compare to Season 2 key levels:
    +10 is S3 ~ +15 in S2
    +11 in S3 ~ between +16 and +17 in S2
    +12 in S3 ~ between +17 and +18 in S2
    +13 in S3 ~ +19 in S2
    +14 in S3 ~ +20 in S2
    +15 in S3 ~ between +21 and +22 in S2

    So top groups were timing an equivalent of current +11 or +12 in ilvl 390 gear, and an equivalent of current +13 or +14 or +15 in ilvl 400-405 gear. There are obviously many points to argue here. I'm looking at top players, so it does not mean random mmo-champ posters could time those keys. Reaping and Beguiling are different affixes, may be Beguiling is harder (imho both affixes are easy pushovers). But also current ilvl 400 players might have easier time due to essences.
    Last edited by ID811717; 2019-08-08 at 10:59 AM.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by apples View Post
    ah yes, the thing that totally happens all the time and is completely a normal, everyday thing to see
    It's pretty widespread, whales don't give a shit, the game and everyone in it end up suffering.
    They're rarely nice or much fun. People used to pay their way out of everything end up like that. It's sad for all involved.
    Last edited by Tiwack; 2019-08-08 at 11:37 AM.
    If you knew the candle was fire then the meal was cooked a long time ago.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Trend View Post
    Not trying to be a dick, but I don't believe you. I think some players could be right around 400 and be fine (dh/outlaw) but I think a whole group of 400's has virtually no chance of timing a 10. Would be easy to prove me wrong ... raider.io records the ivl of the participants at the time of the run.

    Maybe part of my perspective is that someone who is around 400 right now would tend to be bad and/or have wonky gear. Still, I don't buy it. Regardless of how well you know a dungeon you still have to be able to pull the dps to go fast enough.
    You are making it sound like iLvl 400 is being vastly undergeared for 10s, when it really isn't. The gap between current gear and required dps/hps first week of Mythic raiding is always muuuuuuuch bigger than doing 10s with a full ilvl 400 grp imo, at least for "normal" non-split raiding guilds. Sure, not a lot of room for error (if any), but doable.

    And on the other hand, people doing 10s in 430 gear are more overgeared than the 400 grp is undergeared, if that comparison makes any sense.

    The 8.2 powercreep from Essences and new consumables is also a thing. An iLvl 400 char now will probably be noticeably stronger than a guy with iLvl 400 during Mythic BoD progress 7 months ago.


    Also, I never mentioned that the 10s had to be timed every time either, only that they can be completeled at a reasonable pace (couple of minutes over, not 2 hours each run).
    Last edited by ThrashMetalFtw; 2019-08-08 at 01:57 PM.
    They're (short for They are) describes a group of people. "They're/They are a nice bunch of guys." Their indicates that something belongs/is related to a group of people. "Their car was all out of fuel." There refers to a location. "Let's set up camp over there." There is also no such thing as "could/should OF". The correct way is: Could/should'VE, or could/should HAVE.
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  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by ThrashMetalFtw View Post
    You are making it sound like iLvl 400 is being vastly undergeared for 10s, when it really isn't. The gap between current gear and required dps/hps first week of Mythic raiding is always muuuuuuuch bigger than doing 10s with a full ilvl 400 grp imo, at least for "normal" non-split raiding guilds. Sure, not a lot of room for error (if any), but doable.

    And on the other hand, people doing 10s in 430 gear are more overgeared than the 400 grp is undergeared, if that comparison makes any sense.

    The 8.2 powercreep from Essences and new consumables is also a thing. An iLvl 400 char now will probably be noticeably stronger than a guy with iLvl 400 during Mythic BoD progress 7 months ago.


    Also, I never mentioned that the 10s had to be timed every time either, only that they can be completeled at a reasonable pace (couple of minutes over, not 2 hours each run).
    So ... no links, just as I expected.

    If you really did what you said you did (regularly running 10's with a full group at ilvl 400 in s3), it would take you about 2 minutes to throw some links in here and prove me wrong. Go to your characters in raider.io, find your early runs where you were doing 10+ keys close to time with your full ilvl 400 groups and click on the rank link of the run. Then take a few of those URL's and throw them right in here. Prove me wrong. You weren't arguing that you could do it, you said you already have ... regularly. Just grab those URL's and show us how easy it is for a stud like you to run 10's at 400 ilvl.

    But you won't get the URL's because they don't exist.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ID811717 View Post
    So top groups were timing an equivalent of current +11 or +12 in ilvl 390 gear, and an equivalent of current +13 or +14 or +15 in ilvl 400-405 gear. There are obviously many points to argue here. I'm looking at top players, so it does not mean random mmo-champ posters could time those keys. Reaping and Beguiling are different affixes, may be Beguiling is harder (imho both affixes are easy pushovers). But also current ilvl 400 players might have easier time due to essences.
    I think it's possible a combination of top players could time a 10 (esp if we're talking 3 outlaw rogues), but that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about a guy who says he regularly jumps on alts (which would obviously have non optimized gear and non optimized azerite bullshit) and he "easily does 10's with the whole group at ilvl 400". That's what I'm calling bullshit on.

    I looked through about 100 of the slowest but still timed 10's for AD (since AD is so easy to time) and I didn't see any s3 groups below 414 ilvl. That doesn't mean that it can't be done, but if it's so easy I would think there would be some evidence that people are doing it if it's so easy.

    Part of the problem: who the hell is ilvl 400 in s3?

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Trend View Post
    So ... no links, just as I expected.

    If you really did what you said you did (regularly running 10's with a full group at ilvl 400 in s3), it would take you about 2 minutes to throw some links in here and prove me wrong. Go to your characters in raider.io, find your early runs where you were doing 10+ keys close to time with your full ilvl 400 groups and click on the rank link of the run. Then take a few of those URL's and throw them right in here. Prove me wrong. You weren't arguing that you could do it, you said you already have ... regularly. Just grab those URL's and show us how easy it is for a stud like you to run 10's at 400 ilvl.

    But you won't get the URL's because they don't exist.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I think it's possible a combination of top players could time a 10 (esp if we're talking 3 outlaw rogues), but that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about a guy who says he regularly jumps on alts (which would obviously have non optimized gear and non optimized azerite bullshit) and he "easily does 10's with the whole group at ilvl 400". That's what I'm calling bullshit on.

    I looked through about 100 of the slowest but still timed 10's for AD (since AD is so easy to time) and I didn't see any s3 groups below 414 ilvl. That doesn't mean that it can't be done, but if it's so easy I would think there would be some evidence that people are doing it if it's so easy.

    Part of the problem: who the hell is ilvl 400 in s3?
    Go read my original posts again. I never claimed I had done 10s with a full grp of 400s, only that it could be done without much trouble. My alts are obviously in a guildgroup with other better geared players, because that's a more efficient way to do it, but based on my performance in those 10s when I was around iLvl 400, we would still have made the timers if the 4 other players were just copies of me. This was never meant as a bragging post, it was meant to tell you that you are severly overestimating the difficulty of a M10 run and that you're massively underestimating the power of an iLvl 400 character.

    How much overall Dps do you need on each Dps to time a 10 key? 20k? 25k? There are tons of logs of people doing 20k overall dps in season 1 with 385 gear, before the 5th Azerite ring and essences... Good players in coordinated groups were doing 40k overall Dps by the 2nd reset of BoD, with guess what, iLvl 400ish gear... Yeah Reaping pads those numbers a bit, so let's assume 30k overall with Beguilling instead.

    If I came into this conversation without any previous knowledge, reading your responses, I would assume that we were talking about iLvl 370 characters, not 400. There was nothing outrageous about my original claim at all, just you somehow, actually believing that the skyhigh iLvl requirements in pugs even remotely represents the level of gear you need to succeed for a M+10.
    They're (short for They are) describes a group of people. "They're/They are a nice bunch of guys." Their indicates that something belongs/is related to a group of people. "Their car was all out of fuel." There refers to a location. "Let's set up camp over there." There is also no such thing as "could/should OF". The correct way is: Could/should'VE, or could/should HAVE.
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  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by ThrashMetalFtw View Post
    Go read my original posts again. I never claimed I had done 10s with a full grp of 400s, only that it could be done without much trouble. My alts are obviously in a guildgroup with other better geared players, because that's a more efficient way to do it, but based on my performance in those 10s when I was around iLvl 400, we would still have made the timers if the 4 other players were just copies of me. This was never meant as a bragging post, it was meant to tell you that you are severly overestimating the difficulty of a M10 run and that you're massively underestimating the power of an iLvl 400 character.

    How much overall Dps do you need on each Dps to time a 10 key? 20k? 25k? There are tons of logs of people doing 20k overall dps in season 1 with 385 gear, before the 5th Azerite ring and essences... Good players in coordinated groups were doing 40k overall Dps by the 2nd reset of BoD, with guess what, iLvl 400ish gear... Yeah Reaping pads those numbers a bit, so let's assume 30k overall with Beguilling instead.

    If I came into this conversation without any previous knowledge, reading your responses, I would assume that we were talking about iLvl 370 characters, not 400. There was nothing outrageous about my original claim at all, just you somehow, actually believing that the skyhigh iLvl requirements in pugs even remotely represents the level of gear you need to succeed for a M+10.
    This is what you said:

    You can comfortably do 10s with iLvl 400 (that's when I usually start jumping into them on alts).
    Ok, so where are the links? Since you usually jump into 10's on your alts and it's so easy ... where are the links? Or you mean that it's easy to pay a group for a carry? Or you mean that you've actually never done what you said you've done?

    You keep talking about how easy it is ... and not a single link yet.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by ThrashMetalFtw View Post
    . They're (short for They are) describes a group of people. "They're/They are a nice bunch of guys." Their indicates that something belongs/is related to a group of people. "Their car was all out of fuel." There refers to a location. "Let's set up camp over there." There is also no such thing as "could/should OF". The correct way is: Could/should'VE, or could/should HAVE.
    Just FYI, you cannot be “all out” of something, your either out of something or you’re not.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Barzotti View Post
    Forget about +10 keys for now, unless you're 425/430 and a rdrood. A MW friend (434 ilvl) is sometimes declined for +10s. I'd say 415 ilvl (which is pretty easy to reach) to be reliably accepted in the +8/+9 keys.

    Your proficiency at the game and your ability to contribute to the dps doesn't matter in the pug world where there are only three metrics: your ilvl, your r.io score, your class.
    that is true, i am MW 435, with all cleared on 10 in time with guildies, but when i try some 10+ pug, in half of time i usually get declined. Holy pally might get you in pugs more easily since its pretty good, but unless you are resto drood.... dont be surprised if you get declined even with 430+ gear. Ppl are just elitist like you said, cuz between 10-15 keys every healer with 430+ gear and if they know what they are doing is just fine.

    But tbh many times the problem comes from rest of the group, when you have crappy tank, crappy dps with high gear and dont know shit.....but think that healer will save the day. I have been in some pretty good groups and we couldnt finish in time basic 10, cuz ppl dont move from stuff, take dmg that can be avoided, pulling too much trash and im pulling like 50-60k hps to save their ass.....but thats PUG life

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sxq View Post
    You should be able to get into the 420-430 ilvl range without really doing any actual dungeons or raids. Grab your warfront, world boss, emissary, benthic, etc. Cap conquest a few times for some easy gear. Grab your weekly m+ and pvp cache. Boom, by reset time tomorrow you'll be high enough to get taken as a healer to higher keys.
    That's too high, there's a sort of softcap around ~415-418 itemlevel if you do not raid nor do high M+ atm, hence most people are already looking at 420 minimum, not an easy one to reach for a pure pugger by any means.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Thor79
    I exclusively PUG
    Quote Originally Posted by GringoD View Post
    Since other commenters have already answered, I'll instead ask out of curiosity: Why don't you look for some friends and get a regular group going?
    I'm in a similar boat so can maybe answer. Its really hard to find players to group with in modern WoW, that stick around long enough after a PUG run to form friends with and run some more dungeons.

    You never see the same player twice, and PUG groups for raids and mythic+ fall apart after 1-2 wipes.

    I could probably find a guild if I used external tools and sites, but I can't commit to scheduled raiding, none of my friends play, and player interactions are too fleeting to have any meaning in the current iteration of the game.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Thor79 View Post
    Hi Guys,
    I came back to playing WoW after a year off - and I've been plunging back into M+. I exclusively PUG, so I'm curious - at what ilvl is it comfortable for me to start applying (and being accepted) to 8-10 keys?

    I've been playing it safe (I'm 406 now, holy pally), and have been pugging 4-5 keys (2-3 chesting them all) since about 395. 2-3 was way too easy even at 395. 4-5 is pretty easy too, but I know the group finding system can be pretty elitist. I'm running a glimmer build, and comfortably beating bad DPS on single target fights, and contributing 8-10K on trash pulls unless the group is taking too much damage.

    I've been using RIO - and noticing that I would climb in score a lot faster for 7-10 timed finishes. Thanks in advance for the comments!
    I'd love to build a regular group - I only have a few friends who play right now, and they are flaky and their schedules are all over the place. I'll start working on that.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thor79 View Post
    Hi Guys,
    I came back to playing WoW after a year off - and I've been plunging back into M+. I exclusively PUG, so I'm curious - at what ilvl is it comfortable for me to start applying (and being accepted) to 8-10 keys?

    I've been playing it safe (I'm 406 now, holy pally), and have been pugging 4-5 keys (2-3 chesting them all) since about 395. 2-3 was way too easy even at 395. 4-5 is pretty easy too, but I know the group finding system can be pretty elitist. I'm running a glimmer build, and comfortably beating bad DPS on single target fights, and contributing 8-10K on trash pulls unless the group is taking too much damage.

    I've been using RIO - and noticing that I would climb in score a lot faster for 7-10 timed finishes. Thanks in advance for the comments!
    Do your own keys. I did 10 at 410 as a healer and +2 it then +1 the 12 so now I have a 13 key.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Outofmana View Post
    That's too high, there's a sort of softcap around ~415-418 itemlevel if you do not raid nor do high M+ atm, hence most people are already looking at 420 minimum, not an easy one to reach for a pure pugger by any means.
    I'm at 441 from pugging m+ on my tank. Pugged up to 15 so far.

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