Star Wars: Disney deliberately destroyed old characters/universe for royalties

[Faroth]

Reminder that the Sith's "Rule of Two" emerged well after the Old Republic, because the Jedi would slaughter anyone claiming to be Sith, so they had to hide under the radar; there was no consideration other than "they're Sith, kill them all".

From what I've read, Bane established the Rule of Two because the Sith essentially kept turning on each other. Without the Emperor's iron will (and even when he was alive), it was an endless chaos of backstabbing. Once they were mostly eradicated, he decided it had to be kept manageable. I'd speculate there's the door for more Sith again once an Emperor was back in firm control and could maintain it, but I'm playing SWTOR and until I finish at least the 1-50 story, I don't want to continue my re-reading of the novels (working through in story

To be frank, that's sophistry. "It's okay for me to rape people's free will because God says it's okay." If the Force willed it, wouldn't it just . . . work out that way in the first place?

Well, little difference is we've got the lore established that the Force does deliberately guide their actions, so there's some speculation. I dunno that I'd use such harsh terminology for the suggestions we saw on film. "Look the other way" or "you want to go home and rethink your life" isn't really enslaving a mind, but I can agree to disagree there.

[Endus]

In Return of the Jedi, Luke draws on the dark side...more than once. He uses Force choke on the guards in Jabba's palace. He lets anger drive him to defeat Vader. But he pulls back from it and centers himself before being consumed by it.

What I feel's been missed from the OT is that Luke's strength is demonstrated in that final battle with Vader and the Emperor, when Luke is tempted by the Dark Side, centers himself, and chooses not to reach. He forgoes easy power for personal principle and restraint, which shows a lot more inner strength. Vader had a lot of outward strength, but so little inner strength that he was the pawn of the Emperor.

Luke doesn't get to where he is by shying away from the Dark Side. He got there by staring the Dark Side in the face, and saying "not today". That's why he ends up on that island in TFA/TLJ; he's constantly testing himself, and he's constantly riding that line between Light and Dark, because if you don't, you're not actually choosing the Light; it's just all you know. If he'd just been afraid, he'd have run somewhere strong in the Light Side of the force, not somewhere with a pit that's strong in the Dark Side. It's path set in the OT, and one echoed in the newer films, even if people raised holy hell about it. That's part of what turned Vader; he saw that he and the Emperor could kill Luke, but they'd never be able to turn Luke; Luke was too strong for that, stronger than his father ever had been. It's not explicit, but I think that is the realization that prompted Vader's redemption.

[segara82]

@Endus make some good points to compare

A> abducted is a harsh word, but no other options except never using their powers was on the table.

B> ensured those children had limited/no emotional connections to the outside world, including their families
While siblings may be trained together they only were allowed that because both of them were younglings. Any other family-contact was frowned upon if not even forbidden. No outside contacts, only fellow cultists ... now who does that remind you of?

C> aggressively exterminated those who were Force-sensitive and didn't join up
Endus is refering to the fact that only 2 groups of Force users run around, Jedis and Sith. Considering the size of the universe and diversity of species it is simply impossible to not have more groups with differing mindsets. Unless they got absorbed/supressed/killed by the Jedi like in the EU Legends. Ahsoka left but had to never use her powers again or raising the ire of the Jedis. Luckily for her that was not a problem for very long.

D> freely used mind control to suborn people's free will, to get their way or just for personal convenience
No, seriously, it is fucked up how freely the Jedis in the movies (and comics) use their mind-influencing powers to get what they want.

E> involved themselves heavily in political matters that had nothing to do, overtly, with their religious order, to the extent that they were seen as almost a branch of the Republic's law enforcement and military
This is where the discussion is so intriguing. I've come to love the fan theory that Qui-Gon was the last true Jedi of the Old Republic, regularly defying the will of the council because he obeyed the will of the Force where the council had become tools of the Republic instead of what they should have been. Qui-Gon being the first of that era to return as a Force Ghost kind of suggests he was doing something right. I agree

-snip-

My comments on your comments

[Faroth]

My comments on your comments

In some of the Old Republic era (again, we're pre-dating prequel stuff by centuries and talking about drawing from EU influences here), there are young adult siblings who are together as Jedi. There are characters who see their parents or refer to them and it's typically a guilty feeling of not being in touch with them. It's less forbidden and more just bouncing around the galaxy on Jedi business doesn't leave a lot of time for calling home.

Plus, pre-dating KotOR by only a few years, because it's during the Mandalorian Wars, and has Revan present, there are Jedi with spouses.

Cutting themselves off from family is really a later development, which supports the notion of the Jedi going further and further towards extremes with their code over time. Whether by their own flaws or in response to the Sith going further towards their codes can surely be debated endlessly.

Though from what I've been reading, with the original Sith Empire, the Lost Tribe of the Sith, yeah, the Sith have always been pretty bad in their application of their codes. The Sith code itself sounds reasonable, but its application has millennia worth of cruel and evil behavior.

That said, a Star Wars series set in the Old Republic era, but within the Sith Empire would have more political backstabbing fun and treachery than Game of Thrones ever had! Could be fun to see!

[tyrlaan]

While most people hate it, it did explore more about how the galaxy is run from a government perspective with the Senate and its limitations, the Trade Federation enforcing a blockade that didn't result in the Republic just smooshing it.
We saw how the Jedi Council functioned.
We got the explanation of how Sidius managed to manipulate the Senate, build a clone army behind their backs, position himself in power, and execute the near eradication of the Jedi.
We got a little more on the Master/Apprentice of the Sith, with the Master casting aside apprentices (though RotJ had kind of given us a glimpse of that).
New planets with actual differences, a multitude of new aliens - a number of whom were Jedi (granted, no follow up on these and Disney doesn't seem to be using them at all either)
If you want to go into Jedi abilities, we learned that Sith lightning can be absorbed by a Jedi or a lightsaber.
Obviously we learned what actually caused Anakin's fall to the dark side (even if it wasn't tremendously paced or performed without including Clone Wars series, though that is still canon)
A little more on R2's history.... *sigh* and 3P0's

And......ugh..... I guess I have to mention midichlorians being a conduit for the Force in the Force sensitives. If I have to. -_-

Nah, you don't have to because it's never mentioned again and irrelevant outside of the prequels. Actually is it even mentioned outside Episode 1?

Okay, you got some good ones here, but I'd take the following off your list:
- Sidius rise to power, clones, etc didn't really add to the universe, it just fleshed out story beats we'd heard before
- Sith master/apprentice details is more of the same; a fleshing out rather than really adding to the universe
- Anakin's fall is the same bucket as well
- R2 and 3PO also the same bucket

I'm on the fence with:
- absorbing force lightning - at least its adding a new "rule" to the world, so I suppose its adding to the universe
- new planets and aliens; I suppose this is technically true, but I don't think any of these planets or aliens left behind interesting seeds for future storytelling. It's why I didn't mention new planets and aliens for Ep7-8 even though they exist in those as well.

What was the distinct pedigree of Yoda, Mace Windu, Qui-Gon, and Obi-Wan? Or all the kids at the Jedi temple? Considering the prequels establish the Jedi are officially forbidden from marriage and passion is not in line with their tenets of serenity, it's actually the opposite. The Skywalkers are the only example of lineage.

Again... there was an entire order of dozens of Jedi if not hundreds, who were not allowed to marry and have children. The films have always indicated that anyone could develop Force powers if they were Force sensitive. It wasn't explored in the OT simply because that's going much broader in scope than the story being told, but the prequels did give us enough insight to get the idea.

Yeah, okay. I have to give you the kids set up for slaughter by Anakin. I still feel like there's something different about the kid at the end of TLJ though...

Thinking out loud - so we have a whole council in the prequels and effectively a school for Jedi babies. Then Anakin/Sidius kills all the Jedi and we're left with... Obi-Wan and Anakin's kids. Maybe I'm looking at that last scene in Ep 8 and combining it with a running theme from TLJ that seems to be trying to flush the format of unwavering duality in the force. I dunno. There's something to that scene.

Uhhhhhhhh..... Hutts? Bounty Hunters? Criminal underworld? Smuggling? Economics was the driving force of Palpatine's plan in Episode I and corruption within the government along with his manipulation of politics was central to Episode II. Not seen before?

I suppose I wasn't specific enough. Canto Bight paints a different picture than Jabba and the smuggling scene (which really wasn't fleshed out - maybe it is in Solo; I haven't seen it). Solo movie aside, Han was a smuggler. Of stuff. And he owed money to someone that eventually became a Hutt (early designs had Jabba as a human, which you may have known).

Meanwhile Canto Bight, which yes is a painful side trek of a scene, shows the world of high society excesses, the spoils of arms dealing, etc. These are different facets of the big bucket idea of "economic corruption" that we did not have before.

Weird that they made a movie about Han Solo.

Right? Out of all the characters in SW, did Han really need a prequel movie?

So you want me to show you examples, of which there are plenty, but only within the very tight restraints that you have concocted in YOUR head to support YOUR theory? To quote Admiral Akbar...oh wait he didn't add anything new to the universe nor did his race.

You mean my reasonable definition of what it means to add to the SW universe? Don't worry kiddo, Faroth is interested in having this conversation with me.

[PACOX]

While it might not be part of the light side the Jedi teaching are rather extreme if you take them all the way. The Jedi code for example is all about expunging emotion and passion and the republic Jedi have been shown to take kids and make them cut all ties to join there cult.

I think one thing to note is that the Jedi thought they were the epitome and authority of the light when they were, in fact, a perversion (or became) of it. My headcanon is that Anakin (kid Anakin) was the supposed to be the 'ultimate light-side' user until the Jedi were too arrogant to in their ways to view him as the future or the Order.

[korijenkins]

Star wars is already lost.

I dont see much point thinking about what is being done to it since its already wasted in hands of disney.

Not at all. The new films are raking in money like never before. Just because vocal fans didn't like TLJ doesn't mean the franchise is dead.

[PACOX]

What I feel's been missed from the OT is that Luke's strength is demonstrated in that final battle with Vader and the Emperor, when Luke is tempted by the Dark Side, centers himself, and chooses not to reach. He forgoes easy power for personal principle and restraint, which shows a lot more inner strength. Vader had a lot of outward strength, but so little inner strength that he was the pawn of the Emperor.

Luke doesn't get to where he is by shying away from the Dark Side. He got there by staring the Dark Side in the face, and saying "not today". That's why he ends up on that island in TFA/TLJ; he's constantly testing himself, and he's constantly riding that line between Light and Dark, because if you don't, you're not actually choosing the Light; it's just all you know. If he'd just been afraid, he'd have run somewhere strong in the Light Side of the force, not somewhere with a pit that's strong in the Dark Side. It's path set in the OT, and one echoed in the newer films, even if people raised holy hell about it. That's part of what turned Vader; he saw that he and the Emperor could kill Luke, but they'd never be able to turn Luke; Luke was too strong for that, stronger than his father ever had been. It's not explicit, but I think that is the realization that prompted Vader's redemption.

I think this is a perfect example of what it means to be balanced in the SW mythos, not "using light and dark side abilities at the same time".

[Shadowferal]

Not at all. The new films are raking in money like never before. Just because vocal fans didn't like TLJ doesn't mean the franchise is dead.

That comparisons are made with Transformers in regards to box office take, doesn't mean the franchise is faring well.

[Triceron]

The theory makes no sense because it would assume the new characters are more markettable than the old characters.

They aren't. At all.

[Dead Moose Fandango]

Well, on one hand, I'll miss Kyle Katarn. On the other hand, at least Chewie doesn't die in a stupid way.

[PACOX]

Again... there was an entire order of dozens of Jedi if not hundreds, who were not allowed to marry and have children. The films have always indicated that anyone could develop Force powers if they were Force-sensitive. It wasn't explored in the OT simply because that's going much broader in scope than the story being told, but the prequels did give us enough insight to get the idea.

I cant speak for @tyrlaan but I believe they were referring to the way force-sensitives can flourish outside of the Sith/Jedi dynamic. Prior to 8, your options as a force-senisitive was to a Jedi or someone the Jedi saw as inferior, maybe even someone too dangerous to be left to their own devices. The Jedi thought they were the sole worthy authority of the Force. In between EP3 and 7 the Sith were the authority of the Force. So in the canon timeline thats, 1000+ years the two religions owned the Force. Every force-sensitive prior was connected to the two in some way, even the exiles like Ashoka, Kanan, and Ezra. Rey was of a different generation and still thought she needed to become a Jedi to be 'worth' something in the Force. The end of 8 is a way of saying 'maybe the universe won't unravel if there's force-sensitives outside of the Jedi and Sith'.

[Kaleredar]

Lol people are complaining about Luke astral projecting himself because he didn't actually go to fight astral projecting isn't anything new.

Yes, Luke solving his problems by refusing to resort to violence is so unlike Luke. I remember when Episode 6 ended with Luke going berserk rage-mode and decapitating the emperor.

Oh, wait.


I know people wanted him to throw AT-ATs into the sun or whatever, but making Kylo Ren have a rage fit at literally thin air while allowing Luke to reaffirm himself as a hero of legend was brilliant. It reinforces everything that makes Kylo, and the dark side, ultimately weak and Luke and the light side ultimately strong.

And frankly, as I said, I don't think evil clone Luke or Luke falling in love with a spaceship really matches that. Sorry.

That comparisons are made with Transformers in regards to box office take, doesn't mean the franchise is faring well.

...Except that the Star Wars franchise has been critically well received as well. It's almost as if people who can assess the films as movies, instead of comparing them to some movie they wrote in their head a decade ago and being angry it's not that, actually find them compelling. Solo has been the only "financial disappointment" for them, and I'd wager that has a good deal to do with them filming the movie twice. That has a way of ballooning one's budget.

Transformers was never critically well received, even from the outset.

[tyrlaan]

I cant speak for @tyrlaan but I believe they were referring to the way force-sensitives can flourish outside of the Sith/Jedi dynamic. Prior to 8, your options as a force-senisitive was to a Jedi or someone the Jedi saw as inferior, maybe even someone too dangerous to be left to their own devices. The Jedi thought they were the sole worthy authority of the Force. In between EP3 and 7 the Sith were the authority of the Force. So in the canon timeline thats, 1000+ years the two religions owned the Force. Every force-sensitive prior was connected to the two in some way, even the exiles like Ashoka, Kanan, and Ezra. Rey was of a different generation and still thought she needed to become a Jedi to be 'worth' something in the Force. The end of 8 is a way of saying 'maybe the universe won't unravel if there's force-sensitives outside of the Jedi and Sith'.

Yes! Thank you for articulating this - I was even struggling to get my head around my own feeling around the scene, but this nails it.

[Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang]

The only thing that came to my mind after watching that kid at the end of 8 :

....great, so now being Force sensitive is like having a generic superpower, poof you have it and start doing awesome stuff without any kind of training or knowledgeable person showing you it can be done.

...not that they didn't start it with Rey.

Aside from that, if the 1st Order got an hyperspace tracking McGuffin, I bet they can have a Force use tracker, so chances are there's a recruiting/extermination squad on its way to Canto Bight.

[Endus]

The only thing that came to my mind after watching that kid at the end of 8 :

....great, so now being Force sensitive is like having a generic superpower, poof you have it and start doing awesome stuff without any kind of training or knowledgeable person showing you it can be done.

...not that they didn't start it with Rey.

They canon started that with Anakin, in The Phantom Menace. Where he was literally the 2nd Force sensitive we'd ever seen learn to use the Force.

There's really no reason to assume Luke's experience is the standard, especially when everyone talked about how irregular it was.

[Scottyjscizzle]

This doesn't even make sense, Disney would still make far more money leaving it as is than destroying it. He gets a part of royalties not all of them.

[Sormine]

Star Wars is good and if you're gonna get mad online about a children's movie please limit yourself to Youtube comments.

[Shadowferal]

...Except that the Star Wars franchise has been critically well received as well.

That says as much about critics as the box office does.

Why You Hated 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' But Critics Loved It

This prompted headlines asking whether The Last Jedi is "the most divisive film ever?" According to the editor-at-large of influential movie magazine Empire, "It is unusual to have this much of a divide between critics and audience."

"Critics don't help you at all, they are not better than a randomly-picked person," says Dr Pascal Wallisch, a psychologist at New York University. "And there's some evidence, as you saw with Star Wars, that in some cases they're actually worse."

[Queen of Hamsters]

Pretty sure I saw people claim that George Lucas destroyed old characters and the universe for money waaaaay back.