M: Queen Azshara 14 (0.08%)

[Frolk]

1 month into Mythic. This is close to M ToS levels of participation and it could be a repeat of the ToS fiasco. The big guilds like Exorsus have only just defeated the encounter. It looks like we'll be in the palace till 2020 at least, especially with people making the switch to Classic.

Do you anticipate severe nerfs to this raid to stop the hemorrhaging of participation?

Boss is to easy: Blizzard, ur killing raiding!
Boss is to hard: Blizzard, ur killing raiding!

[Revamp Man]

Ah- by "high end" I meant high end for me. I'm in this niche where I want organized group content, but don't have the time/skills to do top-end stuff: Mythic+10, Heroic/Mythic raids. Normal mode would be my progression. Unfortunately, Blizz has skewered the complexity of Normal up towards Heroic-like levels, but kept the rewards tamped down to be on par with Emissaries, Timewalking, World Bosses and the like. I've got 10 415+ pieces on me, none from Mechagon/EP. That kind of reward structure doesn't incentivize Normal-mode progression guilds. Pugs are rare and hard to get into, or mostly flail and fall apart against early bosses. If Normal is just going to be used as filler for higher-up guilds, it doesn't seem to be serving a real purpose.

I mean it's interesting that you say that since my guild runs a normal pug every week after progression so we can get farm going and we have no lack of participant and we have no high range required so essentially if you have a 400 item level character you can join

the bosses are not complex in any way in normal the most complex that you get is the final boss and even she is pretty easy when you break down the mechanics of everything to the point where when my guild killed it I was more focused on what everyone else was doing then noticing that she was at 5%


the first boss is simply stand on the right side II bosses watch your debuff the third boss is watch where you're standing the 4th boss is break Coral with the symbols on your head and stack for bubbles the boss after that is don't stand in s*** and kill ads let the tank soap and then run down a bridge we're all of these people seem to still f****** dye out of 6 pugs that my guild brings in on normal at least three of them die every time despite being told don't worry about rushing and then the boss after that is a bit more difficult but it essentially works out to DPS evenly watch your debuffs and the D boxer simple themselves either being split in have someone stand in these circles do not press the same button twice in a row jump or stutter step at 2 stacks or avoid avoidable damage

Final boss for pretty much every speck is rather simple kill ads slow ads when they start spawning going towards the middle tanks will keypads separated in phase 1 when they have a certain debuff or together when they have a certain debuff when ads spawn in phase 3 you can hero and burn them before they get a shield or you can do it right and position is Spirit The shield which isn't that tough keep an eye on your stacks to make sure that you don't have too many so you can charge up the runes and then watch your feet

honestly I don't even see the complexity and any of these fights on normal the first boss on heroic is more difficult than Queen on normal

[Osmeric]

Boss is to easy: Blizzard, ur killing raiding!
Boss is to hard: Blizzard, ur killing raiding!

The difference is the first statement is wrong, the second is right.

When things are too easy some people get grumpy. When things are too hard guilds implode and people quit.

[rogoth]

Ehhh. Those numbers might be a bit skewed because they're measuring the entire length of the content patch while we're still at the beginning of Eternal Palace (relatively speaking).

even if you take a snapshot and measure the same time period window this expansion, and this tier in particular has the lowest participation levels of any raid tier in the history of the game where records can be found, the decimation of the playerbase (and yes i mean that with the literal meaning of the word), along with the utterly moronic 'reward' systems in game that force players to do stupid shit to keep their characters 'raid ready' it's not surprising that we have reached a point now where people are only raiding because of habit, there's very little in terms of tangible in game rewards that benefit your character to come from raiding anymore, sure there might be the odd trinket here or there but that's it, you can literally get the best gear in the game (for this tier at least) from world quests.

[Relapses]

even if you take a snapshot and measure the same time period window this expansion, and this tier in particular has the lowest participation levels of any raid tier in the history of the game where records can be found, the decimation of the playerbase (and yes i mean that with the literal meaning of the word), along with the utterly moronic 'reward' systems in game that force players to do stupid shit to keep their characters 'raid ready' it's not surprising that we have reached a point now where people are only raiding because of habit, there's very little in terms of tangible in game rewards that benefit your character to come from raiding anymore, sure there might be the odd trinket here or there but that's it, you can literally get the best gear in the game (for this tier at least) from world quests.

I feel like that’s a criticism of WF/TFing more so than the state of raiding.

[Flurryfang]

The difference is the first statement is wrong, the second is right.

When things are too easy some people get grumpy. When things are too hard guilds implode and people quit.

Im pretty sure, if things are too easy, people does not only get grumpy, but they get bored and looks elsewhere for their challenge. That also leads to quitting.

OP: I think it is more than okay, that Mythic Azshara killing is not very high. I always see normal/heroic as the bread-and-butter content for raiding in WoW and mythic more as an achievement-hunter style of play. Its like the brutal/insane difficulty in games. Its great that it is there, but i think that very few % of the people playing the game, actually finishes it on the hardest difficulty.

Like, i have played through the Starcraft 2 about 15 times. I have dived a bit into the hardest difficulty, but never completed it on Brutal. Im glad they presented the challenge for me, but in most cases, im not much up for playing the entire game like that.

[Osmeric]

Im pretty sure, if things are too easy, people does not only get grumpy, but they get bored and looks elsewhere for their challenge. That also leads to quitting.

It's far less damaging to the game for it to be easy. It's sending players who are bored the message "wow, you are good. Really good. We couldn't even design the game to challenge you, you're so good." That player may be bored, but also flattered.

The opposite situation: "not only are you bad, but we don't think catering to you is worth our time. And even though there are lots of players like you, you turn our stomachs so much we can't be bothered to make content for you, even though that would make $$$ sense. Fuck off."

It's amazing some game designers don't realize how their contempt-oriented game design philosophy comes across.

[KaPe]

It's far less damaging to the game for it to be easy. It's sending players who are bored the message "wow, you are good. Really good. We couldn't even design the game to challenge you, you're so good." That player may be bored, but also flattered.

The opposite situation: "not only are you bad, but we don't think catering to you is worth our time. And even though there are lots of players like you, you turn our stomachs so much we can't be bothered to make content for you, even though that would make $$$ sense. Fuck off."

It's amazing some game designers don't realize how their contempt-oriented game design philosophy comes across.

Or... they could just get back to a more regular nerf schedule. They've been pretty slow with that with both Legion and BFA - perhaps counting on Titanforging to do the trick, which it really doesn't. Right now, things will become somewhat easier with 65 essences, but after that, they should even out the difficulty a bit. Ashvane is a huge jump in difficulty and it only gets worse from there. Meanwhile, some of the best loot is from the first three bosses, which makes pushing forward even more awkward and less rewarding.

And they better not make another Uu'nat, now that was a spectacular waste of content.

[rebecca191]

Or... they could just get back to a more regular nerf schedule. They've been pretty slow with that with both Legion and BFA - perhaps counting on Titanforging to do the trick, which it really doesn't. Right now, things will become somewhat easier with 65 essences, but after that, they should even out the difficulty a bit. Ashvane is a huge jump in difficulty and it only gets worse from there. Meanwhile, some of the best loot is from the first three bosses, which makes pushing forward even more awkward and less rewarding.

And they better not make another Uu'nat, now that was a spectacular waste of content.

I'd be on board with this. I'm a mythic raider and I think it was better when they nerfed bosses earlier. Less people got stuck on brick walls and got frustrated.

[arandomuser]

" retail wow is so easy lul back in the day it took 80 days to kill a boss 4 Head, thats why im going to play classic for a very difficult boss challenge

[Osmeric]

you're comparing participation in a 5 week old raid to raids that were open for 6+ months? I mean come on, that's a bit of a stretch. plus your numbers are wrong because you're ignoring normal. I think you will find that the numbers will increase as the tier progresses.

If we compare how many guilds have downed a boss in EP (N or above) to Uldir at the some point (41 days after release), the number is down more than 50%.

[Varolyn]

….And she's getting nerfed.

[KaPe]

….And she's getting nerfed.

The horror. You were, of course, one of those people who had her on 2% and now all your efforts will be rendered meaningless, right?

[prwraith]

We're going for the fourth tier of cutting edge and I'm so ready for a tier that isn't utterly brutal for a change.

[Marrilaife]

Still 1 month is too short of a time to expect tons of guilds to be done with mythic. Raid tier last 5 months usually, give it at least until halfway mark to judge.

Tbh if hundreds of guilds would have finished the raid by now, majority of the typical forum dwellers would cry rivers how content is too easy and dumbed down. They even cry because world top guilds finished after 2 weeks....

P.S. Crucible failed because it only lasted 3 months and was missing "easy entry bosses" most bigger raids have. Being 3 bosses in after a month is quite normal for an average mythic guild, I remember similar story in Nighthold, and basically any big raid that wasn't too short or undertuned.

[Varolyn]

The horror. You were, of course, one of those people who had her on 2% and now all your efforts will be rendered meaningless, right?

I don’t even raid mythic nor would I even be upset about this if I did. If anything, I actually think the nerf is fair.

[apustus]

The only needed change was the one for phase 1 where there's a 3 second grace period for the enrage. Was stupid to watch your tank get 1shot by a frost blast if you killed the melee guy 0.1sec too early. Maybe adjust the timings on the myrmidon spear / tidemistress shield overlap so that you don't get a spear that shoots 0.1sec before the mob gets the shield due to bad interrupt timings.

[Vynestra]

1. She's getting nerfed
2. Guilds are starting to get more 65 necks, that's a soft nerf to the raid, and 67 helps even if a tiny bit
3. She'll get nerfed again if guilds still aren't killing it
4. She'll get the "hall of fame is full" nerf once both sides are full just like jaina.

If she's too hard, she'll get nerfed, see the nerfs today, the tidemistresses were clearly a sore spot, so they nerfed it. Same w/ the indomitable timing.

[Osmeric]

I wonder what's going to happen when Classic causes many raid guilds to fall below critical mass.

[KaPe]

I wonder what's going to happen when Classic causes many raid guilds to fall below critical mass.

It will bounce back within couple of weeks? Plenty of high level mythic raiders are also people who did raid back in Classic - and even the most stalwart defenders of vanilla would have to agree, that raiding is one of the few things where Classic is not "objectively superior".