Preferred New Class

[iosdeveloper]

Dark Rangers /w Sylvanas saving the world story please.
Legion reskin from green to purple.

[Mixxy]

there's no reason there couldn't be a bard healing spec that's gimmick is healing and small scale boosting the Damage/healing of party members--briefly duplicating a friendly caster's spells or causing a melee to emit AoE echoes of their attacks.

Aside from the fact that that would result in Bards being absolutely necessary in all forms of competitive content.

[Aynen]

Dark Rangers /w Sylvanas saving the world story please.
Legion reskin from green to purple.

This. Make it a separate class. Please don't give Hunters a Dark Ranger spec, like Warlocks aren't a Mage spec, Deathknights aren't a Warrior spec etc.

[Niroshi]

Dark Rangers /w Sylvanas saving the world story please.
Legion reskin from green to purple.

Could do that, or Summermoon betrays Sylvanas and we get Wrath of the Banshee Queen.

[shade3891]

Tinker in lead!

I can't imagine playing a Bard feels a bit off for Warcraft. Or is it the guitar Hero version ?

I would like that:

[Hitei]

Aside from the fact that that would result in Bards being absolutely necessary in all forms of competitive content.

No idea why you'd assume that. A disc priest might very well be more DPS overall in an encounter.

[Mixxy]

No idea why you'd assume that. A disc priest might very well be more DPS overall in an encounter.

Either the Bard's buffs have a tangible impact on the encounter, or they have no impact and there's literally no reason to have them attached to the class in the first place. Either way is a problem.

Edit:
I'm not saying Bard can't work. I'm just saying that, if you look past "holds a guitar", it wouldn't really bring much new to the table.

[Lochton]

Now, I've just seen the above mentioned numerous times and I just wanted to get an idea on the idea that was most popular. I think that they're all quite creative and cool in different aspects but yeah. I figured I'd just start this up to get an idea.

Honestly, I really like the idea of a Dragonsworn Class or a Necromancer Class. Just because I think the gameplay and gear would be really cool and it really fits right in there with the Warcraft Lore. Given the return of the Dragonflights in BFA, Dragonsworn would be an awesome addition and makes sense. And in addition, Necromancers have always been a part of World of Warcraft and so, makes perfect sense as well.

I voted Tinker but mostly because Blizzard is sceptical about Bard having a chance to function on their Engine.

[Hitei]

Either the Bard's buffs have a tangible impact on the encounter, or they have no impact and there's literally no reason to have them attached to the class in the first place. Either way is a problem.

I'm not sure you really understand how balance works.

You can have a tangible impact on the encounter without being overpowered, that is how 99% of all spells every class has work. A disc priest's DPS over the course of an encounter is tangible. A Druid's ability to heal in heavy movement over the course of an encounter is tangible. Rogue and mage ability to tank high damage mechanics are highly tangible. There's no reason druids need to be able to move a lot while healing, or disc needs to be able to damage while healing, but they both do, and both have a tangible impact.

There's no reason there couldn't be a spec that provides noticeable buffs to party members throughout a fight. You can bring a bard and your DPS will do some more DPS, or bring a disc priest and the healer will do that increased DPS themselves, or bring a shaman, monk or druid and have more consistent AoE healing. The game didn't implode, nor raids fall apart because power infusion, innervate, original Unholy Frenzy, tricks of the trade, etc. existed.

I'm not saying Bard can't work. I'm just saying that, if you look past "holds a guitar", it wouldn't really bring much new to the table.

No class does.

[Mixxy]

I'm not sure you really understand how balance works.

You can have a tangible impact on the encounter without being overpowered, that is how 99% of all spells every class has work. A disc priest's DPS over the course of an encounter is tangible. A Druid's ability to heal in heavy movement over the course of an encounter is tangible. Rogue and mage ability to tank high damage mechanics are highly tangible. There's no reason druids need to be able to move a lot while healing, or disc needs to be able to damage while healing, but they both do, and both have a tangible impact.

There's no reason there couldn't be a spec that provides noticeable buffs to party members throughout a fight. You can bring a bard and your DPS will do some more DPS, or bring a disc priest and the healer will do that increased DPS themselves, or bring a shaman, monk or druid and have more consistent AoE healing. The game didn't implode, nor raids fall apart because power infusion, innervate, original Unholy Frenzy, tricks of the trade, etc. existed.

The problem with your analogy is that all of those other things are personal output. Your Bard ideas, meanwhile, either affect or are affected by other players. It means that the Bard's output will scale exponentially with the raid size, which would be an absolute nightmare to balance.
Should a Bard's performance be determined by how many friends they have, or how good their friends are? Should my Mage perform less than someone else's Mage simply because I don't have a Bard friend? Should a guild that has a Bard do 5% better than the next guild just because they have a Bard?
The Bard's impact would be increasing the impact of every other player. Suddenly the difference a Disc priest makes is even greater than it was before. Class-stacking will provide an even GREATER benefit, as a 5% buff across the board is gonna be a much bigger increase for the top tier specs than the bottom tier ones. The gaps between specs on Warcraft Logs will widen. Individual players will parse better or worse depending on how good their Bard buddy is at managing their buffs - their own performance literally dictated by someone else.
The game will, by definition, become inherently less balanced as gaps between outputs grows larger. Sure you could argue "They won't get that much bigger!" but less balanced is less balanced.

In short...

I'm not sure you really understand how balance works.

AND not to mention that since the only kinds of buffs a Bard could provide that'd carry any tangible impact would be percentage-based. Which, by their very nature, will have to be re-balanced with each and every single patch.

And while we're at it... if Bards are built around buffing allies and copying their abilities... are they just shit-outa-luck when it comes to questing, levelling, and other solo content?
Not to mention the sheer absolute fuckfest that would be balancing your ideas for PvP. Imagine running around a battleground, having a gay old time, then suddenly a million spells fly at your out of nowhere and one-shot you because a Bard happened to be targeting you when he pushed the "copy allies' abilities" button.

[Hitei]

The problem with your analogy is that all of those other things are personal output.

They aren't. All of those abilities are best used on your top DPS.

Your Bard ideas, meanwhile, either affect or are affected by other players. It means that the Bard's output will scale exponentially with the raid size, which would be an absolute nightmare to balance.

Again, zero idea where you are getting this idea from. Being able to briefly give a rogue in your party an AoE effect doesn't mean that when you're in a raid, every person in the raid now does AoE damage.

Should a Bard's performance be determined by how many friends they have, or how good their friends are? Should my Mage perform less than someone else's Mage simply because I don't have a Bard friend?

I mean that is exactly how it works right now. Are you a warlock with a mage in your group? You do slightly more damage. Is your friend a warlock without a mage in his group? He doesn't do that additional damage.

Should a guild that has a Bard do 5% better than the next guild just because they have a Bard?

Do you think that buffing some DPS during the encounter is going to do as much extra damage as having an entire additional DPS? And again, Should a guild that has a disc priest do X% more damage than the next guild just because they have a disc priest?

And what happens if both guilds have a Bard, but one has Disc Priests for every other Healer? Otherwise identical raid teams having vastly different experiences in regards to the raid's difficulty, based solely on whether or not they have a Bard.

Then it probably does more damage? The exact same as if two guilds have a resto druid, and one is stacking disc for every other healer...?

Not to mention the only kinds of buffs a Bard could provide that'd carry any tangible impact would be percentage-based. Which, by their very nature, will have to be re-balanced with each and every single patch.

There is no reason anything would need to be % based. Putting a 5 second buff on a mage that causes all of their spells to shoot a second, 50% damage copy of that spell essentially makes them do 150% DPS for 5 seconds. Assuming you have 14 other DPS, can that the CD on that ability is 30 seconds, over the course of a 10 minute fight, you will have added a grand total of about 0.5% DPS (15.5/15 DPS=103% Damage when your buff is up, and the uptime is 100 seconds total of a 600 second fight. For reference, Disc priests in mythic Azshara do about 1.5-1.7% DPS.

You can add three abilities like that to bard, and be doing about what a disc priest does in a raid damage wise, i.e. not much in the grand scheme, but the people getting hit by your buffs every 30 seconds are sure as shit going to feel that impact, and that 3-10% damage boost for 5 seconds during a crucial add kill can be just what you need to get through a burn phase.

In a 5 man that buff is doing ~2.6% of your damage, so three buffs like that would put your buffs at like 8% of the groups damage at the end of a run. Disc priests do somewhere between 5 and ~15% of a group's damage in the random mythic+ logs I pulled off Warcraftlogs.

Nothing overpowered about those buffs at all, but every single one of them is going to feel impactful for the DPS getting them, and clever timing is going to give a serious boon to your group in terms of getting adds down when they need to be, and the like.

And while we're at it... if Bards are built around buffing allies and copying their abilities... are they just shit-outa-luck when it comes to questing, levelling, and other solo content?

Are resto druids, holy paladins, resto shamans, and holy priests shit out of luck when it comes to questing, leveling and other solo content? Allow the bard to toss some or all of the abilities on themselves and you have things equally useful in solo content.


tl;dr people way, way, way overestimate the actual impact of support buffs. You can do significant support things and not be breaking anything or remotely overpowered, and having occasional places where a certain class really shines (KJ meteor intercepts, Aggramar DK grips) is not a bad thing. It is fine to put unique utility on classes that other classes don't have.

[Teriz]

Not surprised to see the Tinker winning. People are obviously tired of edgy shadow classes, or classes that cannibalize existing classes, and want a class that's physical ranged, yet different from Hunters and everything else in the class lineup.

Makes sense.

[Mixxy]

They aren't. All of those abilities are best used on your top DPS.

Explain to me how casting Renew on a Rogue increases his damage.
I'll wait.

Again, zero idea where you are getting this idea from. Being able to briefly give a rogue in your party an AoE effect doesn't mean that when you're in a raid, every person in the raid now does AoE damage.

Nope, but it does mean that whenever your Bard is not in a raid, no one will ever get that free AoE effect.
And before you say "Well if you don't have a Druid then you don't get Tranquility!" or some other nonsense, no. Not having Tranquility doesn't mean you get no AoE heals. But not having a Bard means you're not getting loads of individual buffs. There's nothing comparable.

I mean that is exactly how it works right now. Are you a warlock with a mage in your group? You do slightly more damage. Is your friend a warlock without a mage in his group? He doesn't do that additional damage.

Yes, and it's not good design. I've been beating that drum since before BFA launched, and I'll keep on banging away until they're either removed, or spread out over more classes.
Hamfistedly shoving an "everyone does better" ability onto a single underused class isn't solving anything. It's just making balance worse. It doesn't reward skill, it only punishes people for not bringing the exact classes that Blizzard wants them to bring.

Do you think that buffing some DPS during the encounter is going to do as much extra damage as having an entire additional DPS? And again, Should a guild that has a disc priest do X% more damage than the next guild just because they have a disc priest?

It's not about the individual output. That one Disc Priest isn't going to do 20% better than a different Disc Priest just because there's a Hunter in the group. And it shouldn't do 5% better just because there's a Demon Hunter in the group.
(By the way, in a small group, a Disc Priest will increase the average DPS by a larger number than it would in a large group. And your Bard would increase average DPS by a larger number in a big group than it would in a small one. Making your incessant comparisons of the two kind of stupid.)

There is no reason anything would need to be % based. Putting a 5 second buff on a mage that causes all of their spells to shoot a second, 50% damage copy of that spell essentially makes them do 150% DPS for 5 seconds.

That IS a % based increase, you absolute canoe. Increasing someone's DPS by 150% for 5 seconds every minute, let's say, is increasing their DPS by 4.16%.

You can add three abilities like that to bard, and be doing about what a disc priest does in a raid damage wise, i.e. not much in the grand scheme, but the people getting hit by your buffs every 30 seconds are sure as shit going to feel that impact, and that 3-10% damage boost for 5 seconds during a crucial add kill can be just what you need to get through a burn phase.

Meaning that those people you're hitting with the buff are going to just do better than everyone else through no work of their own.
Meanwhile, every Bard in the world will be dropping their buffs on the classes that it will have the biggest impact on: the classes that are already performing the highest DPS.
And the highest DPS getting even more DPS - say it with me now - is making the game less balanced.

Are resto druids, holy paladins, resto shamans, and holy priests shit out of luck when it comes to questing, leveling and other solo content?

No, because the damage they can do is exactly the same no matter how many people are with them, and the amount of single-target healing they can do is exactly the same no matter how many people are with them.

How are you struggling with this?

tl;dr people way, way, way overestimate the actual impact of support buffs. You can do significant support things and not be breaking anything or remotely overpowered, and having occasional places where a certain class really shines (KJ meteor intercepts, Aggramar DK grips) is not a bad thing. It is fine to put unique utility on classes that other classes don't have.

"Buffs don't matter but I will fight tooth and nail for them for some reason".
They either have an impact, or they don't matter. And any impact that an external %-based increase has is inevitably going to widen performance gaps as group sized, buff availability, and class stacking comes into the equation.

And again, you're completely missing the point. Bards, as you describe them, will literally never not be in a place where it "really shines". Purely by nature of making everyone else better at what they do, Bards will quite literally ONLY increase the gap between good specs and bad specs, and increase the impact that class stacking has on fights that reward it.

Even on average fights where no one "shines", a Bard still will, because it makes the strongest specs even stronger. A spec pulling 40,000 DPS and one pulling 30,000 DPS will gain different amounts of extra damage from their Bard friend.

The only, ONLY time that your idea of a Bard could ever NOT be a best pick would be if their healing is garbage, or if the buffs it provides are garbage, or both.
And that's. Not. Balanced.


(Also did you seriously just defend the insane Goblin-stacking for KJ as good design? That's where we're at now?)

[Hitei]

The only, ONLY time that your idea of a Bard could ever NOT be a best pick would be if their healing is garbage, or if the buffs it provides are garbage, or both.
And that's. Not. Balanced.

It's clear you fundamentally don't understand balancing even when numbers are handed to you, so I'm just not going to bother. I guess continue to live in your magical headspace where Disc priests are the most broken class in existence.

[Mixxy]

It's clear you fundamentally don't understand balancing even when numbers are handed to you, so I'm just not going to bother. I guess continue to live in your magical headspace where Disc priests are the most broken class in existence.

"Not acknowledging arguments makes them wrong by default!"

[Polybius]

Bard would be amazing. Sadly they probably can't pull it off. Dragonsworn is nice but I'd rather play a Chronomancer. Can't see how Blue or Green dragonflights can be incorporated without using preexisting Druid and Mage spells. Don't know about Lifebinder, but it can work.

[cocomen2]

Atleast change Ranger into Dark Ranger...... for sake of fair votes , i bet people not gonna vote for basic one.

[Foolicious]

I honestly don't care what class they add. A new ranged spec would be nice, we hadn't had any. All the new classes until now never interested me because im not interested in meele specs, and im sure im not the only one out there.

Can't wait till this thread turns into tinker vs. necromancer vs. deathknight like all the other ones though

[iDruid]

No new classes. They should just stick to races. I'd rather see playable Naga, Vulpera, Ogres, etc before yet more classes. Adding races still adds new content and dimensions to the game without creating balance issues.

[Kumorii]

Atleast change Ranger into Dark Ranger...... for sake of fair votes , i bet people not gonna vote for basic one.

Everyone is biased for their own class that they want, pretty obvious from all the discussions.

- - - Updated - - -

No new classes. They should just stick to races. I'd rather see playable Naga, Vulpera, Ogres, etc before yet more classes. Adding races still adds new content and dimensions to the game without creating balance issues.

Not sure how new races adds dimensions, most of it is just fluff and aesthetics. Classes brings new gameplay, at least that's how I see it.